The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: twyacht on March 14, 2010, 06:01:02 PM
-
Do not want to open a can of worms, but I enjoy my FNP-9mm. No frills, no muss, pistol. For SD rounds, I rotate between 124gr. +P Cor-Bon, or 147gr. +P subsonic Federal HST's.
The old Chuck Hawks mentality, of the ol' standby of 115gr. was 10 years old, using 20 year old data. Mostly due to the post Miami LEO shooting, where the BG with a .223 rifle continued to shoot for several minutes, despite being hit mortally, with several rds. of 115gr. Winchester JHP's.
The premise of slower heavy bullets, i.e. the .45 ACP, is kinda where I'm going for SD situations, to avoid over penetration, in a residential area...
Just trying to get "my head around" the ballistic advantages on a heavier, slower round vs. a faster lighter round.
Here's some thoughts I reviewed.
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/9mmGoodProtection.htm
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=980236
Not looking for a 9mm bashing reply, but an intelligent consideration for the best rd. for a carry 9mm.
Thank you.
tw
-
TW, isn't +P subsonic ammo an oxymoron?
I use Federal 115 gr JHP +P+ in my HiPower, Have heard from some LEO friends that the 147 is fairly worthless, Their opinion from street use.
-
You can't make a 9mm into a .45 no matter how heavy the bullet is so don't try. 115-124 gr bullets have worked for over 100 years and they still get the job done.
-
The 9mm has come avery long way and is an excellent SD cartridge. Especially if you consider that most animals are not solitary hunters. The modern 9mm gives you an excellent advantage when dealing with multiple aggressors.
Since there is no such thing as a "one shot stop" or, all due respect to Larry Potterfield, "knock down factor", shot placement and muzzle energy are much more important to me than the weight of the projectile. Especially if you accept that most SD encounters are going to take place at very close range.
Here are the muzzle velocity and muzzle energy listings for a few of the common 9mm SD loads:
Speer GDHP 124 +P 1220/410
Speer GDHP 147 985/317
Corbon JHP 90 +P 1500/450
Corbon JHP 115 +P 1350/466
Corbon JHP 125 +P 1250/434
What does the data for your load tell you? Good muzzle energy? Do you find that you can control it? Is it easily acquired?
I decided to go with the 125 from Corbon because it has very good muzzle energy with a decent weight projectile. More importantly, I find it easy to hit with consistently because, all things being equal, shot placement trumps caliber choice or projectile weight every time. Load a reliable expanding bullet and make sure you can efficiently and accurately run a zipper string or tri-tap with it.
Stay Safe,
-
I chose the Federal HST 147 gr +p for the same reasons Scott chose the Corbon "... it has very good muzzle energy with a decent weight projectile....I find it easy to hit with consistently because, all things being equal, shot placement trumps caliber choice or projectile weight every time...". And besides, it's the only round my mother lets me shoot.
-
Thank you Don and scott. The conundrum:
"If a bullet expands and penetrates 6" and another bullet does not expand, but penetrates 12", which one does more damage?"
I like the premise of a heavier bullet for SD. Just trying to weigh the offset of velocity vs. bullet weight.
From another forum.
The 147gr. has a lot of material behind that hollow point, which causes it to expand like a HP but penetrate like a FMJ to a certain point. It should be noted though that Gold Dot and Golden Sabre have outdone Federal because the post would occasionally bend to the side hurting penetration or break off which would cause loss of bullet mass and thus certain agencies had it replaced.
Criteria being maintained bullet mass while expanding reliably and penetrating 13 inches + of ballistic gel.
TW, isn't +P subsonic ammo an oxymoron?
I use Federal 115 gr JHP +P+ in my HiPower, Have heard from some LEO friends that the 147 is fairly worthless, Their opinion from street use.
Thanks Majer, what is the premise, knock down? Recoil? One shot stop? (Which can also be an oxymoron, except in movies) :P
God Bless Your Mom DonW.
-
It's so funny you brought up the HSTs TW. In my M&P45 I carry 230gr HST only because at current it's the only HPs I have in .45. Now I do have a box of HST 155gr .40S&W which usually gets bumped for the 155gr Gold Dots but I like the reviews on the HST I'm seeing online. I haven't carried them in my compact 9 yet but I do have some 124gr +P 9mm sitting next to me. I'm thinking if I can't get more Hornady Critical Defense I may have to start carrying those HSTs instead. Any word on the performance on the slightly lighter 124gr?
-
It should be noted though that Gold Dot and Golden Sabre have outdone Federal because the post would occasionally bend to the side hurting penetration or break off which would cause loss of bullet mass and thus certain agencies had it replaced.
The Federal HST P9HST4 147 gr does not have a post.
-
The Federal HST P9HST4 147 gr does not have a post.
Your correct, I think it was the predecessor, the "Hydra-Shok", used by many LEO's in the past, evolved into the HST.
Similar to the Winchester SXT round from the old Black Talon rd. Even down to the Lubilox coating.
-
Your correct, I think it was the predecessor, the "Hydra-Shok", used by many LEO's in the past, evolved into the HST.
Similar to the Winchester SXT round from the old Black Talon rd. Even down to the Lubilox coating.
Your HSTs are coated??? I'm confuzzed. Mine are not. They just look like Giant Flying Ashtrays of Doom.
-
TW, the 147 gr Subsonic round was chosen because of it's reputation of 1 shot stops in it's use by the Military Special Forces, However, they forgot to add in the fact that these rounds were being fired from suppressed weapons and only head shots were taken. On the street they failed miserably, when they bumped up the velocity they performed a little better but still lacked in stopping the threat.That is one of the reasons for a lot of PD's going t the larger .40S&W.
-
I chose Winchester PDX1 147 gr. I read a bunch of research from Dr. Martin Fackler. His research (mucho summarization) revealed that penetration was right behind wound channel when it comes to selecting a caliber. Naturally, the 230 gr. 45 ACP was his first choice, but he did write the 147 gr. 9mm would be a good selection too.
I wonder for those who choose to carry +P/+P+ if they might be better off with a 180 gr. 40 cal if they want all of that velocity; just my opinion....
-
Thanks Majer, So, a lighter bullet with a hotter charge, is better for the 9mm? I know it was always designed to be a faster round, just kicking around bullet evolution, and the old sterotypes.
In the September 2009 issue of American Rifleman magazine they compared these to ammo choices and both performed equally well in expansion through heavy clothing, wallboard, and plywood into a block of gelatin. The expansion for Critical Defense 147gr. +P was 0.548", 0.515", and 0.580". The Winchester 115gr +P load expanded to 0.567", 0.525", and 0.520". The penetration for Critical Defense 124+P was 5.77", 5.54", and 6.09". Also the Critical Defense had a higher muzzle velocity (1123fps) and a higher muzzle energy (322 Ft-lbs.). The Winchester's velocity was 956fps. with a muzzle energy of 298Ft-lbs.
I know shot placement matters regardless of caliber. Even in my little Kel-Tec, .380, referencing the wetpack post, I can't imagine the results to be that different, with good carry ammo, especially at SD distances.
Thank you for the replies. Like I posted, there is no real right answer. I'm sure a BG in my house at 4:00 in the morning, won't care, all he'll know is I have 16+1 of whoop ass pointed at him at reasonably close distances.
Whether it's 115gr., 124gr. or 147gr, +P or not, having the round capacity that most modern 9's have, and shot placement, will be an advantage.
I appreciate the insight.
-
there is no replacement for displacment.
;D
-
there is no replacement for displacment.
;D
What about instantaneous interruption of the central nervous system?
-
I think slow and heavy is more about relating the effectiveness of larger calibers (.45 acp) over a faster bullet in a smaller caliber(9mm, 5.7, etc ). Think diameter not weight. The heavy 9mm is still the same diameter as the light 9mm. Penetration is going to be about the same (give or take)... the biggest deciding factors (IMO) are going to be two things... 1) which ammo gives the most energy. 2) which ammo will give the best expansion. All things being equal (bonded bullets + same barrel length) usually the 147 gr 9mm tend to deliver less energy then the lighter faster loads (although too light a bullet will begin to yield diminishing results - 124 gr is usually the sweet spot). You need to do your research with regards to expansion... Too fast or too slow can yield poor results in this category.
*The irony of this debate is that we would all prefer a .223 rifle bullet (way lighter and way faster) any day of the week.
-
Back when the FBI standards were set, I believe that the problem with existing high speed, low weight handgun rounds was that they expanded to quickly or fragmented, both of which prevented the penetration needed for a decisive stop.
With the developments in ammo design since then these problems have been reduced if not eliminated, so the lighter high speed rounds can provide the expansion and weight retention to allow effective penetration.
-
Hit by a Mack Truck at 60 mph or 3 Toyota Carollas at 60 mph has pretty much the same effect. The difference being the Mack Truck takes up more space than the 3 Carollas.
The main focus should be on hitting the aggressor(s) with projectiles placed in such a manner that you cause i) immediate cessation of nerve impulse transmission, ii) interrupt/deplete blood supply to the point of failure, and/or iii) destroy the aggressor's structural support. Any reputable hollow point, when delivered in a series, will do the job if the shot is placed correctly. The main variable being how long it takes that particular individual to succumb to the retaliatory strikes.
I have not seen, or heard of, any person who was shot call for a time out to complain that the bullets they were hit with were only 115 grains instead of 230.
Hopefully we all train to shoot until the threat ceases to be a threat. There is no wonder projectile for a handgun. Regardless of the load you will need to place your shots well and continue to do so until the aggressor(s) stops doing whatever it is you want him/her/them to stop doing.
Load a quality hollow point from a reputable manufacturer and here are the things you need to be concerned about:
Shot placement
Shot Placement
Shot Placement.
I'm not saying we shouldn't do our research. What I'm suggesting is that when the copper & lead hit the meat, multiple projectiles placed into the upper thoracic cavity or central nervous system interruption are going to matter the most.
Ultimately if you find something that works for you then use it. If you like a certain training method, use it. Zipper drill over Tri-Tap? Who cares as long as you can do it successfully every time. Whatever you do, train until you can't do it wrong.
Stay Safe,
-
Any reputable hollow point, when delivered in a series, will do the job if the shot is placed correctly. . Regardless of the load you will need to place your shots well and continue to do so until the aggressor(s) stops
Load a quality hollow point from a reputable manufacturer
Yep, nuff said.