The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: billt on March 16, 2010, 12:05:51 PM
-
What a scary, expensive last couple of days! It all started early Friday morning. I work weekends, (12 hour shifts Friday, Saturday, and Sunday), and then I'm off all week. I get up early on my workdays because I start a 4:45 AM. Melanie and I were sitting in the living room around 3:15 AM when she said to me, "I hear water running". I told her I had the sprinkler system set to go on at 3:00. So we both dismissed it. I couldn't hear it because I'm deaf in one ear, and only have about 75% hearing in the other ear.
Then I called her at home on my morning break on Saturday and she told me I really hear water running in the laundry room and in the guest bathroom. She said nothing was leaking, but when she was on her hands and knees feeling behind the toilet to see if anything was wet, she said the floor was HOT! I told her as long as nothing was leaking I would take a look when I got home.
She was right, no leaks, but even I could hear it with my crappy ears. I have one of those "point and shoot" Infrared thermometers, and the linoleum floor behind the toilet was 101 degrees! I turned off the hot water at the water heater and it stopped. I knew then, 1.) I had a hot water leak. 2.) it was in the underground pipes.
Here in Arizona we have some of the best climate in the United States, but some of the WORST home construction as well. Most all homes are built on slabs with all of the piping run under the slab before they pour it. What happened to me actually is quite common. 80% of underground leaks are hot water because of the expansion and contraction of the pipes as they heat up and cool down. If the pipe is rubbing against anything, this will cause it to leak over time.
Bottom line: yesterday they had to repipe my entire house with hot water. They ran new lines overhead in the attic, and down the walls. $5,000.00 later the problem was solved, and now I've got a drywall guy coming tomorrow to, "make it all look like it never happened." In the process I had them replace 2 faucets as well as my outside main water shut off valve. Oh the joys of home ownership. All in all it's pretty amazing at what they can do. I had no idea this type of thing could be done so fast. It sure as hell beats jackhammering your floor to pieces! It's another grand for the drywall to be replaced, taped, textured, and painted. I guess I can't complain, it's better than losing the whole joint in an earthquake. Bill T.
(http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/1351/hotwaterwholehouserepip.jpg)
(http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/7778/hotwaterwholehouserepipn.jpg)
(http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/1351/hotwaterwholehouserepip.jpg)
(http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/1351/hotwaterwholehouserepip.jpg)
(http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/1351/hotwaterwholehouserepip.jpg)
-
God bless ya Bill. I'm sorry you got to go through that. Indoor plumbing is great until it all goes wrong.
Just to share a little story..... The previous owners of the house we just moved out of went on vacation once and had an upstairs pipe burst.... long story short... they had to take the entire downstairs down to the studs. YIKES!
Turning off the water when you go on vacation is cheap flood insurance!
-
Sorry to hear that. Next time she says "I hear water running . . . ." ;)
Up here, for obvious reasons (think winter - really really cold winter) ALL plumbing runs are in the inside house walls and floors. The only think under the slabs are the water and sewer mains - and out slabs are a minimum of four feet underground. Nothing runs through outside walls, even on the inside of the insulation.
I think if I were building a home in AZ, I would insist on this approach.
-
Damn Bill.............that's tough. We have so much of the same type of construction. The newer construction is all going to the new flexible overhead piping. It's just another bump in the road. I'm glad you and Mel survived.
-
I fellow I used to work with had a house that was plumbed with Poly Butyl plumbing. This was the crap Shell Oil invented back in the late 60's or early 70's. It was sold as the best thing to hit the pluming industry since indoor toilets.
The problem with the stuff is they found after time the stuff would harden and split. He and his wife both left for work when the main line into their home ruptured. It ran for well over 12 hours, (almost 13,000 gallons according to the water meter). Bottom line over $29,000.00 in damage. All the floors and baseboards and drywall 2' up the wall had to be replaced. He lost a lot he had sitting on the floor as well. When this stuff goes, it splits along the length of the pipe like a zipper effect. The water flowed at full force. It's amazing what little has to fail to cause a major disaster. I'm just thankful we had no water in the home at all. I was lucky in that regard. Bill T.
-
The newer construction is all going to the new flexible overhead piping.
My house in Lake Havasu City had all overhead supply. The only problem was, (Most people don't believe this who never lived a Summer in the Mohave Desert), when you turned the shower on full COLD, you had to stand off to the side or else you would be scalded by the "cold" water that was in the attic pipes at well over 130 degrees! When it was 115 to 120 outside, it was nothing for attic temps to soar above 135 degrees.
The city had a rule that A/C service guys and contractors had to work in teams in the attic. One guy up, one guy down. That was brought about in the 70's after a A/C serviceman died in an attic doing duct work. A retired woman had hired him, and when the company called to ask when he had left she told them he was still up in the attic. The paramedics were dispatched and found him dead in the attic. Heat can kill you much faster than cold. In the Summer without water your life expectancy in the Mohave is measured in hours, not days. bill T.
-
Bill, you have my deepest and most sincere sympathies. I can't think of much I hate worse than plumbing problems.
Some years back, when my AZ-resident Dad was considerably more active, he told me he'd noticed a leaky hose bib on the back wall of the house. Now, Pappy ain't one to pay a plumber for a simple little job like a leaky hose bib, so he tackled the problem with confidence and gusto.
He said the hose bib proved to be a struggle to remove, and by the time he got it off, it had cracked a nipple leading off a T. Trying to repair that leaky T lead to a leak at an elbow. Fixing the elbow resulted in a leak at another T closer to the primary supply. And on and on.
Dad said by the time he fixed that darned hose bib, he had pretty much re-plumbed the house.
I think TW will probably back me up on this, but in my opinion the only thing worse than plumbing a house is plumbing a boat. At least the house won't sink if you screw up.
-
Thanks guys. Everything should be all back to normal by the end of the week. At least that's my goal. At least it's another of a long list I can cross off my mind for several years. That plumbing will no doubt out last me. After that, I don't much care. Bill T.
-
billt, Have the same slab on grade here in FL. Had the same whole house re-plumb about a year ago!
-
I love repipes... ;D
I'm not a fan of "pex"(name brand there are several makers out there) pipe. Now that copper has come down in price, it no longer profitable to do pex.
-
Sorry to hear about your problems.
Richard
-
It isn't a question of profit or price. It's a question of adaptability. In my case for example, they would have had to cut away over 3 times the drywall to do a copper install. PEX is easier, plus you eliminate soldering in the attic. A fire hazard to be sure with insulation and dust everywhere. A PEX, crimped joint is easier to obtain, and far less likely to leak, not to mention is far more flexible than a sweat soldered copper connection. The cost would have been well over double. If I had PEX in the attic to begin with instead of Copper underneath, this problem would have never happened. Bill T.
-
We are experiencing issues with copper pipes rotting from the inside out. It is happening in our utility room, so is an easy fix and minimal damage to the house beyond wet carpets.
I feel for you on the sudden and major repairs, and all the expense and hassle that comes with it!
I'm waiting to hear from a certain Iowegian that lurks around here for his take on your situation.
Good luck on the final clean up and detailing of everything!
-
Sorry to here about it biilt, that NPT, (called here) stuff can be prone to fail. It's used on boats as well and there is NO margin of error when it comes to install.
Some are good for 2 days, 2weeks, or two years, THAN something happens.
PEX, NPT, is a cost effective way to plumb a house, boat, RV, etc,... Its like a chain, only as strong as it's weakest link, joint, fitting, coupler, or bend.
Take Care,
tw
-
We are experiencing issues with copper pipes rotting from the inside out.
That is an issue here in Arizona as well because of the extremely hard water in this state. Service life of a hot water heater here is about 6 years, if you're lucky. I replaced ours after about 5 years. It wasn't leaking, but was so filled with calcium it was clogging up the aerators on the faucets, and we were running out of hot water. Bill T.
-
Cuper Nickel water heaters will help, yes they are more expensive, or the tankless water heater route.
Water softeners? Solar options?
Just kicking it around. I am going to a tankless water heater, with a solar backup, which will work even if the power goes out.
I hope this doesn't cut into your firearm acquisition "Master Plan", to own at least one of everything.. ;)
-
I had a water softner in the last 2 homes we owned. While they certainly help, it's a major pain buying and hauling salt all the time. Now without one, we really don't miss it that much. Bill T.
-
Tankless water heaters need alot of gas. its not uncommon at all to have to redo part or all of the gas system to give them enough gas. They also have some venting needs that are a little bit diffrent.
my 2 cents on water heating. A hybrid solar( the kind with anti frezze, not the kind that water runs thru them) and standard tank are the way to go. Yes they are pricy and harder to install, Its by far the cheapest to operate.
-
Sorry to hear about that Bill
I trust copper more than plastic, but"Polymers" ;D are certainly easier to work with.
But I also carry a 1911 not a Glock. ;D
-
that's a bugger
I know how you feel though
last year had in our bathroom a leaking breacher in the shower buggering up 2 walls / hall way carpet
so now have a new bathroom ( with a Spa ;D ) I have been meaning to post some before and after picks for ages now ( the are on face book though )
lol and I still have not quite finished yet
-
Here followeth the long awaited post from the designated Iowegian:
billt, I feel your pain!! Thanksgiving weekend the wife noticed a wet spot on the carpet in the dining room. When the plumber arrived he made the assumption that it was a leak in the basebaord radiator on the other side of the wall, in the kitchen. He returned on Monday, opened up a section of the dining room wall behind said radiator and found no leak. While he was there, the wife was doing a load of laundry. While he was sitting there contemplating where the leak might be, the washer went into the spin cycle, creating a fountain in our dining room. Long story short, we had a broken (rotted out) galvanized exit pipe under the kitchen. We were unable to avoid the jackhammering of the kitchen floor, however. If you ever have the opportunity to have somebody jackhammer up your floor, pass. While they had the floor open, they replumbed the entire house with flexible plastic piping. Then we replaced the carpet in the dining room, living room, and adjoining hallway (all the same pattern), as well as the vinyl in the kitchen. $12,000 later, and the house was back to normal......sort of. As the flooring guy was installing the last trim plate between the new vinyl in the kitchen and the old vinyl in the entryway, he managed to screw through one of pipes that feeds the kitchen radiator, which created another fountain. He shut off the main water supply, and (sheepishly) came to the store to tell me about it. I called the plumber, who peeled back some of the NEW vinyl in the kitchen, and some of the old vinyl in the entryway, brought in the contractor with the jackhammer, and dug up another section of floor. The pipe was fixed and the new concrete poured on that little debacle the same afternoon. Now we're just waiting for the new entryway vinyl to arrive so it can be installed.
I'd ask "what next?", but I REALLY don't want to know.
-
been there... Just got done doing bathroom to the tune of about 45k. A cable guy drilled right thru the main wet wall for the house so he could install a tv in the bathroom. it was a 1 1/2" copper line that he put a 3/8" hole all the way thru. long story short the bath had to come out as it soaked the sub floor. his insurance was pissed when I faxed them a copy of the contract and invoice. ;D
-
been there... Just got done doing bathroom to the tune of about 45k. A cable guy drilled right thru the main wet wall for the house so he could install a tv in the bathroom. it was a 1 1/2" copper line that he put a 3/8" hole all the way thru. long story short the bath had to come out as it soaked the sub floor. his insurance was pissed when I faxed them a copy of the contract and invoice. ;D
I can understand that. I expect my insurance agent to stop taking my calls soon. Last summer we had a HUGE hailstorm, and ended up with a $10,000 claim for a new roof to replace the 2-year old one. In November we had the plumbing debacle, and in January we totaled my car hitting a deer. All the same insurance agent and same insurance COMPANY. Think my rates'll go up next year?
-
As they often say, misery loves company. You make my problems seem minor! The dry wall guys are here now, and I have to say they are extremely talented. There is a lot more to drywall than it looks. Everything is blending beautifully. Tomorrow they'll finish off the painting, and everything will be back to normal. I never thought when this whole mess started, it would be done so fast, as well as so professional. I was very fortunate to run into guys who really knew what they were doing. Horror stories about these things are just about everywhere you care to look. Bill T.
-
Enquiring minds need to know -
I assume Melani is guarding the guns ... Who is guarding Mel the workers ;)
-
Actually Sam, my Golden Retriever follows them from room to room. He's not used to all this activity. Bill T.
-
Well the drywall guys have just left, and the nightmare is just about over. These guys are artists, and I'm not kidding. They haven't painted yet, (First thing in the morning), and you cannot tell anything was ever done! I was very impressed. Drywall is like any other trade, they make it look easy. What I found so impressive, and was worried about, is as you can tell from the pictures the cuts were make where there is nothing to "nail into". He laughed and said that was no problem. He installed backups that were really strong. I could tell by the pressure he was using on the trowel when he was spreading the "mud". They then kept sponging it, let it dry then brought in this texture machine that worked like a halfway clogged spray painter that blasted little clumps of plaster on to the wall. It looked like total crap when he finished. After it was allowed to partially set up he then squeegeed it and it matched perfectly. He'll be back in the morning to finish up the painting and then this fiasco will be history. Thank God! Back to scope selection for the Kimber 8400. I hate distractions from life's real purpose! Bill T.
-
Well, everything is back to normal. The painters have just left, and they did an absolutely perfect job! You can't even tell regardless of how hard you look. These guys are really super talented. Melanie is reorganizing and cleaning things up, and I've learned from experience to stay out of her way until she's done. So I'm "having one", and enjoying the company of you guys! All and all it was an experience I don't want to have again. But, as they say, it's all's well that ends well. Now, BACK TO GUNS!! Bill T.
-
, as they say, it's all's well that ends well. Now, BACK TO GUNS!! Bill T.
Glad to hear it!
Now, what's next on your to buy list? ;D
-
Glad everything is 'normal' again. ;)
-
Glad to hear it!
Now, what's next on your to buy list? ;D
Got to scope out the new Kimber. Hopefully in a week or so. I'm still kicking around ideas. Bill T.
-
Glad everything is 'normal' again. ;)
HazCat,
How did your replumb go? Bill T.
-
About as well as could be expected by 'plumbers' from Plant city. In other words they drilled THROUGH the walls and cabinets, ran plumbing inside cabinets, forgot to hook some up. I still have a few runs that just dead end (not sure if there even in use). Typical shoddy work from some 'dumb ol' boys' that I can't get the company to fix properly. At least it works...
-
My wife's old high school girl friend lives in Plant City. They keep in touch quite often. Florida has a lot going for it. Believe it or not, I actually miss a bit of the rain and humidity. Drier than the Sahara here. Bill T.
-
Couldn't take the dry. My sinuses would bleed me to death! ;)