The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: garand4life on March 17, 2010, 12:33:56 AM
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Since I've never owned a revolver I am curious what other's prefer to carry in their compact .357 mag revolver. This is a Taurus compact frame .357 Magnum revolver. I like the flexibility of the dual chambering but for carry what have yall found to be a consistent loadout?
I am looking at Hornady Critical Defense .38 +P and Gold Dots .357 and .38 +P as possible options. I know it's going to come down to what I can handle for followup shots and placement. But, I am curious what others have learned from their experience to give get me on the right track.
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I carry Magnum rounds in my .357's. I buy .357's for defense so I can carry full bore .357 Mag. rounds for the serious work. If I wanted to carry .38 Spl for defense, I'd buy a .38 Spl gun. I carried Silvertips in my J frame until I shot them. Harsh recoil. Golden Sabers are what's in it now. My 649, being stainless steel, is a little more forgiving of recoil with most loads. An Airweight or Ultralite would be harder to control with them of course. But, Golden Sabers, Magtech 158 gr, Winchester white box Personal defense, Blazer, all in .357 mag, and all just about as accurate as each other. Each of them were easy for me to get followups with. The only one I had a problem with in my J Frame were the silvertips. They do great in my Taurus 617, which is a 7 round .357 and a mere 5 ounces heavier than the 649. But they were a lot less manageable in a J Frame. (Not surprising seeing the Silvertips are designed for and geared toward hunting.) After shooting the 649 with the various loads, I carried the Winchester white box 110 gr rounds, but decided I wanted a little heavier bullet weight for carry, so I put the Golden Sabers (I think they're 125 or 135 gr, but don't remember off the top of my head.) in it. Each one of these loads worked well for me as far as accuracy and follow up shots. But I'm not exactly recoil shy about a .357. You'd really have to shoot with the loads you're considering and see which one you can perform with to your satisfaction. MY choice is Magnum rounds.
Out of curiosity, What model is your Taurus?
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605
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Cool. My cousin has one (It Used to be her husband's. Then he let her shoot it. Then It was hers. I think she still lets him shoot it now and then. ;D). She keeps Magnum rounds in it.
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If you load .357 mag in a short barreled revolver you will get all the thump without any of the benefit.
The loss of performance from the short barrel is such that the .357 loads end up with .38 +P values.
From the Speer GDHP Ballistics Table: http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx
.357 mag 135gr Short Barrel Load 990/294 2" bbl velocity/energy (at the muzzle)
.38 spl +P 135gr Short Barrel Load 880/222 2" bbl
.357 mag 125gr Std GDHP 1450/584 4" bbl
.38 spl +P 125gr Std GDHP 945/248 4" bbl
They go to a heavier bullet to increase performance because they have to tame the loads so much to be reasonable in a short barreled revolver.
Why pay, in many different ways, for .357 performance if you are not going to get it?
The Speer GDHP for SB Revolvers in 135gr and the Hornady Critical Defense load both work very well and post good numbers. Either way, I suggest you stay with the .38 +P loads. Even in your .357 mag gun.
I know, sacrilege!!! How dare I? and all that other stuff...So before anyone gets angry I am not disparaging the .357 magnum load, the weapons chambered for it or their owners. It is just my opinion based on having fired .357 mag, .38 spl +P and .38 spl loads through my Ruger SP101 and MY S&W M&P 340.
In those guns I found the .357 mag loads to be highly unpleasant to shoot, difficult to control and expensive when compared to similarly performing .38 spl +P loads.
Also, I'm pretty sure that Patrick Sweeney did a segment on this very topic on an episode of Handguns.
In the end, shot placement is much more important. I suggest that you take a self defense class as it relates to the firearm in CQB situations.
Stay safe,
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Prefer the 38 +P Golden Saber from Remington in my J-frame's.
tex
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I didnt vote.... to keep the poll results "pure". If I did carry a snubbie, my choice WOULD be the golden sabres in .38+P
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Speer Gold Dot .38 spl +P 135gr is what I use.
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Speer Gold Dot 38spl. +P 135 gr JHP (short barrel) in my old Model 60 and also in my 4" Model 686.
There's a reason those in the NYPD who still carry revolvers use this load. It replaced the Federal Nyclads they used to carry. Its a great round.
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http://www.snubnose.info/docs/38-snub_vs_357-snub.htm
I'm not doubting Speers claims but S. Camp has chrono information that leads me to use .357 Mag 125 gr Golden Sabers.
To each his own...I do practice and can handle the load from a SP101. It ain't pretty, it does hurt a bit, but it can be done! I would never use them in a lightweight frame though.
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Just a followup question, rather than starting a new thread for just a simple question. A transfer bar safety allows for a revolver to be carried without having to leave an empty chamber, right? I know that the old rule was always leave an empty chamber under the hammer so that there would be minimal chance of an AD. I believe that the transfer bar safety was meant in part to change that paradigm correct?
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Correct. Modern double action revolvers like the Smith and Wesson models no longer need to be carried with the hammer down on an empty chamber, it is safe to carry with a full cylinder That rule now typically applies to the older single action revolvers such as Colt Army models. The exception on single action revolvers are the modern Ruger revolvers that have resolved this issue with their own transfer bar safeties.
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Prefer the 38 +P Golden Saber from Remington in my J-frame's.
tex
+1
Don't have a snub .357, but do have a M85 Taurus Snub .38 +P. Also have Winchester SPJHP 125gr standard loads that work just fine at SD distances.
The +P's are certainly more "snappy", but I do not feel under"powered" with the standard .38 SPJHP's.
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Scott your own data shows the .357 10% + faster with the same bullet, recoil, yes it will and you will not like it. You probably won't notice it in a FTF put the bad guy down moment, but you will in practice. The .357 mag does get to it's full potential in longer barrels, but what it comes down to is that extra 90-100 fps, worth it, to me yes. I don't have a j frame in .357, but do in a 2 1/2" model 19, and it ain't bad with my boot grips even. I do own 2 j frames, a 649 in .38spl, stuffed with PMC Star something 125 grn hollow points, and my beloved 940 9mm, I carry 147 grn, black talons or 124 grn, Nyclads. This gun shoots well, but with 147's it is a tack driver. The 9mm does better in the short barrels than the .357 mag, since none have been made in a while, the comparisons between the 2 cartridges is not well covered. Feel free to Google Fu, and find one.
Any of you shooting the .357 mag in the J frame, do practice grabbing a small hand full of grip, and shooting targets at 7' to 7 yards, fast, like you mean it, sometimes 2 shots, other times 3 shots or till empty. The good thing about a J frame or a Ruger Sp101, Colt detective special, is even someone with small hands, can completely encircle it, for maximum grip torque. It will not stop the pain, but it will control the muzzle rise.
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Scott your own data shows the .357 10% + faster with the same bullet, recoil, yes it will and you will not like it. You probably won't notice it in a FTF put the bad guy down moment, but you will in practice. The .357 mag does get to it's full potential in longer barrels, but what it comes down to is that extra 90-100 fps, worth it, to me yes. I don't have a j frame in .357, but do in a 2 1/2" model 19, and it ain't bad with my boot grips even. I do own 2 j frames, a 649 in .38spl, stuffed with PMC Star something 125 grn hollow points, and my beloved 940 9mm, I carry 147 grn, black talons or 124 grn, Nyclads. This gun shoots well, but with 147's it is a tack driver. The 9mm does better in the short barrels than the .357 mag, since none have been made in a while, the comparisons between the 2 cartridges is not well covered. Feel free to Google Fu, and find one.
Any of you shooting the .357 mag in the J frame, do practice grabbing a small hand full of grip, and shooting targets at 7' to 7 yards, fast, like you mean it, sometimes 2 shots, other times 3 shots or till empty. The good thing about a J frame or a Ruger Sp101, Colt detective special, is even someone with small hands, can completely encircle it, for maximum grip torque. It will not stop the pain, but it will control the muzzle rise.
Just one thing.
Not my data...
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I had been carrying Hornady XTP 38's in my modified Taurus 650CIA revolver, but I figured WTF and started carring Golden Saber 357's. That way even if I miss, the muzzle flash and noise from the magnums will scare the crap out of any assailant, and I can get away. I still use 38spl at the range.
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I used to carry Federal 130gr Magnums in my 340PD Jframe, but I switched to 110gr .38+P+ load from Corbon. I think it probably hurt just as much to shoot the Magnums as it would be to be shot BY the Magnums. :'( :o That's why I made the switch! ::) The Corbon load is still sharp in the recoil dept. but manageable. 8)
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Let me pose a multipart response question to a few of you.
1) In a good steel snub weighing about 24 oz. would not a .357 mag be somewhat reasonable in recoil?
2) In regard to the worry of over penetration a good modern defensive load like Critical Defense would not the reduced velocity from such a short (2") barrel be somewhat mitigated?
3) Would it be reasonable to, theoretically, keep the "higher power" .357 loaded revo as a backup to a standard EDC carry 9mm or 40 for those situations where your main is unable to resolve the threat or fails requiring and immediate result of sort to an immanent or active threat? Thoughts?
I'm basically considering carrying this as a secondary to my M&P9c or .40. Not really as a EDC gun but more to backup my semis that I am much more practiced and comfortable with. what are your general thoughts about doing this. And in this application keeping a more potent round, namely Gold Dot short barrel .357s or Hornady CD which I prefer. I would think that out of a heavier gun (24-26oz.) and a short barrel it would be somewhat more manageable in recoil and would reduce it's velocity enough to reduce the likelihood of over penetration. That's just my thought please correct me if I'm wrong.
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G4
My snub, as mentioned, is an SP101 which weighs about 25 ounces empty. I handles the magnums nicely and I don't have a problem with the recoil. I've shot mainly big bore guns and have carried a 1911 Commander for some time, (28 ounces) maybe that's why it doesn't bother me too much. It's been 28 years since I carried 9mm and quite honestly, I can't remember if I've shot 9mm in the last few years. Other than my .45, I think the next smallest caliber is .40 S&W which has no recoil in my opinion in the Sig 226.
Practice with a few cylinders of magnums, get the feel for the recoil and make your decision then on what to carry. I shoot mostly .38's to keep the practice manageable but always finish up with a couple of cylinders of my carry rounds to; 1) rotate my stock and 2) It's a shitload of fun to finish up with a BANG and the flames can be a hoot at sunset! Besides, it cleans out the cylinder of that crap left over from the shorter .38 cartridges, I think.... ;)
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I love my M&P45 but it unfortunately recoils like a limp 9. Not bad for shooting accurately but it takes away the endurance you build up shooting major calibers like the 45. Still love it. The only reason I keep driving this question and asking about magnum rounds is the fact it's hard right now for me to buy ammo in any variety and I don't have the luxury of trying out 5 6 7 different loads. I am narrowing down from what I know about the caliber from other guns I've shot it in and knowing what I can usually handle caliber wise. So thanks for continuing to throw out your thoughts everybody and please continue.
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Let me pose a multipart response question to a few of you.
1) In a good steel snub weighing about 24 oz. would not a .357 mag be somewhat reasonable in recoil?
2) In regard to the worry of over penetration a good modern defensive load like Critical Defense would not the reduced velocity from such a short (2") barrel be somewhat mitigated?
3) Would it be reasonable to, theoretically, keep the "higher power" .357 loaded revo as a backup to a standard EDC carry 9mm or 40 for those situations where your main is unable to resolve the threat or fails requiring and immediate result of sort to an immanent or active threat? Thoughts?
I'm basically considering carrying this as a secondary to my M&P9c or .40. Not really as a EDC gun but more to backup my semis that I am much more practiced and comfortable with. what are your general thoughts about doing this. And in this application keeping a more potent round, namely Gold Dot short barrel .357s or Hornady CD which I prefer. I would think that out of a heavier gun (24-26oz.) and a short barrel it would be somewhat more manageable in recoil and would reduce it's velocity enough to reduce the likelihood of over penetration. That's just my thought please correct me if I'm wrong.
I think your right on the money. I wouldn't have a problem shooting Magnums out of a steel gun, but the light weight guns are to much recoil unless you have real muscular hands! A real good load for the J Frame is the .357 Magnum 130gr Hydra Shock from Federal. Here's a short video I recorded the other day of a friend shooting my 340PD with this load. Ouch! It would be much more manageable in a gun that weighted twice as much. ;D ::)
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FWIW, the vid shows a controlled environment, with a traditional two handed stance, and a non retaliating target.
Change the scenario, 4:18 a.m. half awake, half asleep, no ear and eye protection, immediate intruder threat, it's dark, can't shoot two handed.
What changes?
Everything.....
If you are healthy enough, have good hands, no arthritis, and have some situational awareness, training, and the will, than this will work.
My father in law is 84, retired Army, Westinghouse Engineer, physics genius, but he is weak now. Ravages of time. His old 38 S&W is all he has in MD, of all places. I still wonder if he can handle firing it with standard 38's.
Splitting hairs for a BUG, or a second carry pistol, but whether its a .357, or 38 +P, or even 38 SPL, it will do the job for what its intended to do. If you run out of ammo in your primary, and have to go to your BUG, geez your in a world of sh** and I hope the cops are comin.
My M85 Taurus carries 5 rds. of GDHP +P's. and I carry with 2 Bianchi Strips. At home, different story, for an intrusion or break in, my pistol, usually 357 full size, or .40 S&W, is only buying me a few moments to get to the "critical dynamic, life threatening ender". Which is the Rem 870, or God forbid, the Sig556, or AK.
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FWIW, the vid shows a controlled environment, with a traditional two handed stance, and a non retaliating target.
Change the scenario, 4:18 a.m. half awake, half asleep, no ear and eye protection, immediate intruder threat, it's dark, can't shoot two handed.
What changes?
Everything.....
If you are healthy enough, have good hands, no arthritis, and have some situational awareness, training, and the will, than this will work.
My father in law in 84, retired Army, Westinghouse Engineer, physics genius, but he is weak now. Ravages of time. His old 38 S&W is all he has in MD, of all places. I still wonder if he can handle firing it with standard 38's.
Splitting hairs for a BUG, or a second carry pistol, but whether its a .357, or 38 +P, or even 38 SPL, it will do the job for what its intended to do. If you run out of ammo in your primary, and have to go to your BUG, geez your in a world of sh** and I hope the cops are comin.
My M85 Taurus carries 5 rds. of GDHP +P's. and I carry with 2 Bianchi Strips. At home, different story, for an intrusion or break in, my pistol, usually 357 full size, or .40 S&W, is only buying me a few moments to get to the "critical dynamic, life threatening ender". Which is the Rem 870, or God forbid, the Sig556, or AK.
For the record I carry this with .38+P+ load not the magnums! But I would entertain the idea in a model 640.