The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: Gfro on April 06, 2010, 09:43:11 PM
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I live in the state of Wisconsin and concealed carry of a firearm is not a legal option. However, Wisconsin does have an open carry policy. Should I consider the open carry option that is available to me? If so, aside from the legalities; what would I need to consider, specifically in regards to the types of training I should be looking for. Example: Because the firearm is easily visible I would think that weapons retention would be of more concern; especially compared to concealed carry. Just looking for your thoughts. Thanks everybody.
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Since it is open carry, I would look at a Blackhawk Serpa holster. I use one for my Kimber .45 in concealed carry and also one for my FN 5x7. I have them in a paddle holster and very easy to get on and off since I take it off when I get in to work. Another upside is the price. It is not that expensive so if it does not work out for you, you are out about $30 not $80 or higher like some other brands. Just my 2 cents.
A question about open carry: Is inside the waistband allowed? Where you can have your shirt tucked in and the gun inside the waistband of the pants but clearly showing? That might be a good way to go too. But make sure your pants are about a size bigger because when you stick a gun in there, it gets a little tight. Trust me, I have certain pants I have to wear IWB.
Hope this helps.
Matt
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This may sound smart assed but is not, Have you considered how to deal with your carry method when you have to take a crap in a public place.
Any other rest room use can be accomplished by simply readjusting your clothes but, to take a dump you have to actually drop all below the wast carry methods on the floor
:-X
Open carry is a pain in the butt, the only place you can conveniently carry up here is in a low slung leg holster, because of winter coats and jackets, That also is the fastest place for most of us to draw from.
That is also the area that takes the most abuse , I even broke a grip splitting Kindling, I was choked up on the ax handle, the extra handle whacked the wooden grip and split it :-[
Made a new one the next day at work at T/C Arms ;D
I'm not saying don't, I'm just throwing out experience ;D Which reminds me,
Shoulder rigs, Does it anchor on your belt ? Does it use a solid loop, Velcro ? Some other type of "quicker" disconnects ?
At the age some of us have reached, just taking a "nice healthy" is stressful enough with out adding the menace of being hung in our carry system ;D
Before you laugh or blow this off, think back on how often we have heard about N/D's in restrooms ?
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If open carry is your only option I would certainly take advantage of it. A RIGHT NOT EXERCISED IS A RIGHT LOST.
Also as mentioned above retention is VERY important as well as 'comfort'.
I would get clear, authoritative advise on self defense law in your state so there is NO QUESTION (or as little as possible) on when to act and what the ramifications might be. Maybe find a gun friendly lawyer and buy an hour of his time.
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I would go the BH Serpa suggestion one better and try to find the BH Level III holster with the guard that slips over the hammer.
JMHO
Richard
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Good points on the restroom use, Tom. I ran into that very thing at the oncology center today. Fortunately, they have 'single user' restrooms where you enter and lock the door, instead of like the open rooms at places like wally world. I always look for single occupant restrooms if I can. My solution is to place my gun and wallet on or in the sink, within reach. I use a SERPA, but my G27 makes it top-heavy when my belt is unfastened. I don't like the way the gun tries to flip over while seated in the business position.
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I've had a rather funny experience with a 1911 in a Kohls restroom. Not so much the guns problem but my inability to find a place to put it while attending to my business. That coupled with the fact that the contractor that built the stall, put the TP dispenser about two inches off the deck. It was the handicapped stall, there is NO WAY someone with a real disability could have used this stall.
My wife thought it hillarious when I "playacted" my actions... :)
I'm sure the fella in the stall next to me wondered....WTF!...
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Good points on the restroom use, Tom. I ran into that very thing at the oncology center today. Fortunately, they have 'single user' restrooms where you enter and lock the door, instead of like the open rooms at places like wally world. I always look for single occupant restrooms if I can. My solution is to place my gun and wallet on or in the sink, within reach. I use a SERPA, but my G27 makes it top-heavy when my belt is unfastened. I don't like the way the gun tries to flip over while seated in the business position.
I have heard it recommended that when using the restroom, you drop your pants to the floor and place your gun on your pants between your feet.
This ensures that you are thinking of the gun when business is done and are less likely to leave it on the back of a toilet, top of a paper holder or some other place.
I guess the sink in a single use works cause you will be (hopefully) washing your hands.
Only downside to the sink is that is is not available for a "restroom invasion" :D if the sink is not close.
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Since you ladies think its best to sit while you pee...... just drop your pants to your knees and spread your knees as wide as possible. This will put tension on the holster (IWB or OWB) and you wont have any problems.
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Since you ladies think its best to sit while you pee...... just drop your pants to your knees and spread your knees as wide as possible. This will put tension on the holster (IWB or OWB) and you wont have any problems.
;D
At least no one brought up the "hover"..... ::)
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I have heard it recommended that when using the restroom, you drop your pants to the floor and place your gun on your pants between your feet.
This ensures that you are thinking of the gun when business is done and are less likely to leave it on the back of a toilet, top of a paper holder or some other place.
I guess the sink in a single use works cause you will be (hopefully) washing your hands.
Only downside to the sink is that is is not available for a "restroom invasion" :D if the sink is not close.
I've used that one a couple of times.
As to the 'restroom invasion', they don't want none o' that. :-X ;D ;D
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As to the 'restroom invasion', they don't want none o' that. :-X ;D ;D
Ahhh...BCM ...Biological Counter Measures...
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I use a shoulder holster now, it has loops so I wear a belt with a removable buckle so I just pop off the buckle and pull both ends out of the loops and take care of business.
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Yes open carry is an option in Wisconsin but it can be a hassle.
Hassle #1; case law has determined in our wonderful state that open carry while inside your vehicle is "concealed" from the view of anyone outside the vehicle...busted. #2; said firearm in the vehicle must be unloaded, fully encased and not readily accessible to the occupant of the vehicle....PITA And #3; just because you legally can do it doesn't prevent that segment of law enforcement(not all LEO's) who are; uninformed, moronic or pursuing their own agenda, from stopping and "messing" with you.
I often use open carry when riding my motorcycle (I’m not “in” a vehicle so my sidearm is visible to anyone around me) to the range during the summer I have been stopped soley because I've "got a gun" four times. Thus far it has been nothing more than the afore-mentioned PITA. But I still had to make sure all of my movements were outrageously "non-threatening" while explaining to some officious idiot that I was properly exercising my rights. I have a friend from Fond Du Lac that was arrested, several years ago, for disorderly conduct because some “anti-handgun” putz complained that she felt threatened by his open carry in a county park. He fought the charge and it was dropped as unfounded but it still took him almost a year to get his gun back from the courts.
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Yes open carry is an option in Wisconsin but it can be a hassle.
Hassle #1; case law has determined in our wonderful state that open carry while inside your vehicle is "concealed" from the view of anyone outside the vehicle...busted. #2; said firearm in the vehicle must be unloaded, fully encased and not readily accessible to the occupant of the vehicle....PITA And #3; just because you legally can do it doesn't prevent that segment of law enforcement(not all LEO's) who are; uninformed, moronic or pursuing their own agenda, from stopping and "messing" with you.
I often use open carry when riding my motorcycle (I’m not “in” a vehicle so my sidearm is visible to anyone around me) to the range during the summer I have been stopped soley because I've "got a gun" four times. Thus far it has been nothing more than the afore-mentioned PITA. But I still had to make sure all of my movements were outrageously "non-threatening" while explaining to some officious idiot that I was properly exercising my rights. I have a friend from Fond Du Lac that was arrested, several years ago, for disorderly conduct because some “anti-handgun” putz complained that she felt threatened by his open carry in a county park. He fought the charge and it was dropped as unfounded but it still took him almost a year to get his gun back from the courts.
All the more reason to do it. and push for a change in the 'auto' part.
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Minnesota is a "carry" state meaning a Carry Permit holder can carry open or concealed. Several times a week I open carry just because I can. I get the "look" from some people but it does not bother me. I have never been hassled by a LEO and never asked by a LEO for my carry permit and ID. I expect that I may be asked one day. I use a Blackhawk Serpa holster when I open carry.
I know Wisconsin is different and Wisconsin LEOs have "reputation." Especially with out-of-state drivers. So I understand the potential hassle factor.
Good Luck!
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Sorry this will be long... and please don't take to wrong.
I’m all for exercising our right to carry and we keep pushing/hoping for concealed carry as well. I just made my post to make sure Gfro was aware of the “wrinkles” that come with open carry in our fine state. Some people that I know who are all for getting a concealed carry law on the books, and would carry concealed if they could, simply will not as a rule open carry because they don’t want to deal with the potential hassles.
There are also very real risks in some situations; as an example the first time I was stopped for “having a gun”. I was driving down the highway when the gumballs came on so I pulled over, shut down the bike and set it on the sidestand. Now since I know most of the local LEO’s because of my job, I took my hands off the handlebars and turned to make conversation. Let me tell you looking at the business end of a 9MM in the hands of a very nervous cop who appeared to be about 12 years old ends conversation very quickly! Had I made any additional “wrong” move I have no doubt I would have found out first hand how effective the 9MM round is. Once he calmed down he told me he had stopped me because I had a concealed weapon. I asked him how he was able to determine I had a concealed weapon and he told me “because I can see it!”. To which I said “WTF if you can see it how is it concealed?”, his answer was “don’t be a smartass with me buddy”. At that point his shift supervisor arrived as backup for the "man with a gun" call. That officer did know me, explained to the first officer that my method of carry was indeed legal and made him apologize, but then had the ‘nads to suggest to me that I not open carry to avoid “problems” in the future. I told him that I would not surrender my rights because his officer was undertrained, which was the real cause of my “problem” not my sidearm.
Was I “in the right”?- yes
Could I have ended up dead?- you bet
As with every choice we make involving firearms; each of us has to weigh our own acceptable risks, the more information we have the better decisions we can make. For me the potential hassles will not stop me from open carry when I chose. Others may not want to deal with them.
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USMCdadx2,
If it seemed I was being argumentative with your original post, my apologies. I was simply saying that for me to not exercise a right because it 'upsets' others or because some LEOs may not like it ain't likely to happen.
If anything it would make me much MORE likely to 'stir the pot'. ;)
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Haz, I didn't feel you were argumentative, I added the "don't take it worng" hoping no one thought I was being pissy. I've been known to stir a few pots myself so anyone counting on me not doing something because "they" might not like it will be very disappointed. Ask my darling wife
That isn't everyone's personality so I fall back to "more info, informed choices"
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See Haz??? you can take a bit of a lesson from USMC...
He worries about it for a moment before he stirs the pot....
We can use that kind of restraint and self control around here :D :D :D
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For what it is worth this is probably the best forum I have found when it comes to the way members treat each other. Even when it's clear the members don't agree with each other everyone stays pretty respectful. Thanks to the founders, moderators and most of all the members
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See Haz??? you can take a bit of a lesson from USMC...
He worries about it for a moment before he stirs the pot....
We can use that kind of restraint and self control around here :D :D :D
I refuse to participate in that ;D
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I refuse to participate in that ;D
Yeah right, Mr. Poke with a stick!! ;D
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OK maybe I need to recant that last post
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For what it is worth this is probably the best forum I have found when it comes to the way members treat each other. Even when it's clear the members don't agree with each other everyone stays pretty respectful. Thanks to the founders, moderators and most of all the members
+1
That's what drew me here....and why it's basically the only forum I post on...(no comments from the peanut gallery) ;) .......
If you stay around long enough, everyone gets to know each other, and most learn to overlook the occasional bad day, and the sometimes accompanying snippy posts.
This is a great place........and based on the last 7 months my family has been through, probably the only thing that kept me sane...(again, no comments from the peanut gallery concerning my sanity).
8)
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Pay NO attention to the member with the "rope", or the "clip" thing,.... ;)
For those that cannot live, drive, eat, or go through a grocery store without a cell phone to their head,... in a different ambiguous kinda way, those that choose to carry whether concealed or not, do so, hopefully, with a mindset and routine that facilitates all aspects of "everyday life", including bathrooms. etc,...
It is part of a routine. Wallet, phone, knife, keys, sidearm.
usmcdad, as others have posted, we here at DRTV welcome everyone, kick it around a bit, and maintain a "level" of something that many forums do not have.
Fundamental respect, a reasonable amount of intelligence, humor, and even discussing the best place to "put" your firearm when on a commode.,...
Disclaimer: This is not a post from the "peanut gallery",.... ;)
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But he stirs the pot any way ! ;D
Semper Fi ! to you and the 2 fine young Marines you raised, I hope you and they are doing well.
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Tom,
Thanks(again) for your best wishes for my boys they're doing good, though one will be heading back to "the 'stan" in the undisclosed near future.
Gfro,
To take this back to your original question. The "best" type of holster varies from person to person and weapon to weapon. For me, when I do carry, I prefer an outside the waistband holster that sits high and tight either in a crossdraw or FBI forward cant setup. This works with either my revolvers or my pistols and puts the weapon in a position that is most comfortable for me. It also allows me to use my elbows and forearms to "index" it for either a draw or retention. To me the most important part of weapons retention is paying attention to what is going on around you. Call me paranoid but armed or unarmed your head needs to be in the game all the time.
I don't think the "toilet" issues are unique to open carry, you would have to consider the same issues for any type of carry you chose. If you want to carry find what is most comfortable for you and then work out the rest of the details.
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When I was the Director of Facilities at a hospital, the security department found a 9mm service weapon in the men's stall when it was being cleaned. It turned out it belonged to a cop who had to take a dump.
S**t happens!!
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On duty it goes into the pants, because criminals see the shined shoes and pants and have been known to reach over the door and grab the gun belt and take off with it. Off duty it stays in the holster and I spread the legs to create tension.
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Off duty it stays in the holster and I spread the legs to create tension.
I am trying, so very, very hard, not to ask if you take a "wide stance" Bulldog, but I feel my better angels have failed me. I had to type it, I just had to. ;D I guess this ruins the newbies view of how polite we are, still, he'd learn sooner or later, se la guerre. As far as the bathroom thing, it is an issue. Let me just say I love GLOCKS!!!!! Not just because they are perfection :P, but because my G-26 didn't just save my ass in Charleston, it saved me from my own stupidity. I have had exactly one ND in my life, and that was when I was a kid. I damn near had another when I first started carrying my G-26. Except for Glock, I could have been Rob's friend, or for that matter, Plaxico Burriss :o. I have and love, a soft leather Galco IWB, but when it, and my G-26 were new to me, I had a rather urgent head call in a Chile's. The holster has a thumb snap, that, in the first week I owned it, I left undone, while deciding whether to keep it or cut it off. The gun is secure without given the tension of the waist band and belt. However, in my haste to deal with business, I dropped trou, and there was a "thunk" as the Glock hit the floor. It scared the crap out of me (as though anymore incentive were needed. Note, the spicy wings, not to be taken lightly. :-[). Needless to say, that the thumb snap was retained, deployed and is still in use. It was a useful wakeup call to remind me that a holster's safety/utlity isn't just about drawing and reholstering the gun. I still use the IWB, but I am definately more aware.
FQ13 :-[
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Drop trou to about your calf and create tension on pants by spreading your feet to keep said pants off of ground and prevent firearm from bouncing on the ground. So no one could see under the stall that you are packing or attempt to snatch it from you.