The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: billt on April 13, 2010, 09:06:02 PM
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36457556/ns/business-autos
And the hits just keep on comin'. Bill T.
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As long as the gov't still owns GM & Chrysler, the hits, PR machine, and the spin doctors will continue to hammer Toyota.
Have you seen the Mercedes equivalent? Not only is it ugly, it is a clone with different grill, just like the Buick. Copy than bash the opposition.
Right out of Saul Alinsky's playbook.
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I'm just pissed that Toyota won't fess up to their being something wrong. Gas pedals sticking... Floor mats? Come on give me a break.. I don't own Toyota but that would make me not buy one. If there is a problem then fix it.
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A lot of vehicles are what we call, drive by wire, there is no mechanical connection between gas pedal and the throttle being opened, it is possible, but very unlikely that ( unintended ) acceleration could occur, but there are many failsafes built in, the number one, is the brake pedal, if it is depressed, it cancels the throttle position, even if you were pressing the gas pedal and the brake pedal at the same time. The electronic throttle go's to the closed position. Anything can happen, but this technology has so many redundant systems built in, it is very unlikely.
The same thing happened in the 90's with Audi, it just was not true, a lot of people cashing in on the unintended acceleration, band wagon, I was an expert witness on 1 trial, the situation could never be duplicated...I had to evaluate a vehicle that ran over a patron in a car wash, it was slippery shoes on the gas/brake pedal, IMHO.
I have been doing this too long to rule it out, as electronics could be susceptible to radio frequency interference, but it is very doubtful, with the number of instances, reported, but, no repeatability, and a willing congress, to point fingers, but have no solutions.
Can't say no, it is impossible, but in my experience, just like the lady who spilled hot coffee in her lap, Pilot error, not mechanical or electrical.
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Toyota's latest fax pas is getting a lot of press because Consumer Reports listed the vehicle as, Do Not Buy. I believe the last car that got that designation from them was the Yugo. As far as rollover ability, there most likely isn't a SUV currently being produced that can't be rolled over.
In 1991 Famous retired jockey Willie Shoemaker was paralyzed from the neck down when he rolled his Ford Bronco in a DWI accident. In spite of being drunk at the wheel, he sued Ford and received a $1,000,000.00 settlement. Bottom line, if you want a big vehicle with large tires, and a lot of room and ground clearance, you're going to have to live with it's ability to roll over. If not, buy a Vette. Bill T.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Shoemaker
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spot on Bill
they are eventually a Land Cruser with a fancy badge that will never go off road
http://video.consumerreports.org/services/player/bcpid21495733001?bctid=77022871001
they are not a sports car ::)
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As long as the gov't still owns GM & Chrysler, the hits, PR machine, and the spin doctors will continue to hammer Toyota.
Have you seen the Mercedes equivalent? Not only is it ugly, it is a clone with different grill, just like the Buick. Copy than bash the opposition.
Right out of Saul Alinsky's playbook.
spot on!
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I can't believe that Toyota would not promulgate any "fault" they find in the acceleration cases. Something must certainly be going on with the wire/RF controls or floor mats or something to cause malfunction and they just can't isolate it. ON THE OTHER HAND, Gummint Motors really needs to lower the competitive standards if they are going to be able to sell the mobile parts piles they're making. This nonsense with the Lexus rolling over is, IMHO, just that. In the example shown on last night's news, the danged thing didn't roll. In fact, the computerized skid control took over and it slowed to a stop.
I personally own a Ford Explorer. It's relatively high off the ground. It's old, and the shocks aren't as good as they were when they were new. It WILL roll over upon provocation--like hitting the brakes suddenly and turning the wheel hard right or left. It is a fault that is recognized and lived with because I like the idea of a 5-speed stick and 4WD. I formerly owned a CJ5 with the same inclination to roll over upon minimal poor driving practices. Recognized. Understood. Compensated for. Never rolled it.
But with all that said, I heard on yesterday's news that the scientists at Wood's Hole or MIT or some other prestigious research institution are considering the possiblity that Toyota's problems are the result of sunspot activity. I suppose that is a possibility, but it strikes me as about as likely as little green men.
Finally, Ford announced yesterday that they now have the highest market share they have enjoyed since the '70s.
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A couple of years back while on the way home from work on the freeway, I had to lock up my 2 Wheel drive F-150 to avoid a multi car pile up that took place right in front of me. In spite of having rear anti lock brakes the vehicle got sideways on me at close to 60 MPH. The truck came with 235 X 15 tires which I had changed out to 31" X 10.5 a while back. I managed to get it stopped without rolling it, but just barely! The guy behind me was driving a Camaro and stopped no more than 6" from the door handle on my passenger side. Had the truck stayed straight he would have rear ended me for sure. He needed the extra distance I provided him by going sideways.
He told me after we got out, (the entire freeway was blocked by wrecked vehicles), I was on 2 wheels, and he thought for sure I was going over. It was pure luck I didn't. I see so many of these "Monster Trucks" on the freeway now a days that would roll like a soccer ball if the same thing happened to them. All of the fancy leather interiors and gold plated name badges they put on these vehicles to attract the suburban yuppie set won't change Sir Issac Newton's laws of motion. Bill T.
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One of the most dangerous things you can do with a vehicle that has a high center of gravity is put tires on it with a short performance type sidewall. You see a lot of this on "gangsta" cars, not so much on Explorers or pick-ups. It's very important on these trucks for the sidewall to be able to flex in order to maintain control during a turn.
Maintaining correct tire pressure, using the tires recommended for the vehicle and rated for the type of driving you're planning are important to maintaining vehicle control as well. Trucks are not high performance vehicles and should not be driven as such. Like Bill said, buy a Corvette Mustang.....or other American made "something or other" if you need something to run on rails.
Maybe Toyota/Lexus will come back, maybe not, but they won't get my money again!
Yes, I was in the tire business back in the day.....
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but they need them
(http://www.hiphopcars.com/cars/40_inch_rims.jpg)
(http://www.madwhips.com/upload/images/hummer_h2_1_1-568-426.jpg)
(http://image.importtuner.com/f/editorials/big-rims-looks-vs-performance/6271302+w500+cr1+re0+ar1/hummer-h2-30-inch-rims.jpg)
helps them when having a small " and a stroke
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I rolled an SUV and a full-size van. It's surprisingly easy to do.
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I rolled an SUV and a full-size van. It's surprisingly easy to do.
My best friend back in MI rolled pretty much anything he ever drove! ;D ;D
I went for a complete roll in his CJ once, landed back on four tires.....Matt was laughing the whole time! :D
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36396230/ns/business-forbescom/
I read this yesterday, and wasn't really very surprised. All this talk of Toyota's cars being unsafe, is like telling me that firearms are unsafe. Both are as safe as the person operating them. In the case of each of the incidents that disparage Toyota's "safety", the vehicle's operators had the ultimate responsability for their own safety. Mechanical or electronic failures are irrelevant. If you've got time to call 911, you have time to shift to neutral.
If you read the article, you'll see that the perception of Toyota quality hasn't really diminished. It's sales are down, but I'll wager that if Consumer Reports doesn't modify it's position, the Toyota lawyers will go after them the same way the GM lawyers went after NBC over the exploding gas tank test.
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Finally, Ford announced yesterday that they now have the highest market share they have enjoyed since the '70s.
People like to buy cars from non-government entities! I would love an Escape right now but .... NO MONEY! I love my PT Cruiser to death so to see the FED run Chrysler into the ground kills me. Especially since it was the FED that pressured Chrysler to stopping manufacturing of it's best selling compact in the last 2 decades.
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I've got some cash sitting and waiting to buy Toyota stock when I think it has bottomed out. Its only been down about 13% because of this, but I think it will still go lower.
They are still gonna be a solid company and they will still know how to build great cars. This whole thing is gonna cost them a great deal of money and stock valuation, but when the dust settles they are still going to be a great company that puts out a great product.
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Eric and CJ are right. I think that this is an operator defect, far more than a product defect. I own a Tundra that is under the recall, and I have NEVER had any problems. I continue to swear by Toyota, as do several people I know. They build an excellent vehicle. I think that the bad rep that they are getting is due more to a media in the regimes back pocket.
After all the administration we have now will do anything to tarnish and trash anything that they cannot control, or makes them look bad. Especially large companies that are still making money. Double that for Toyota because they are non union.
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Eric and CJ are right. I think that this is an operator defect, far more than a product defect.
From what I have heard, it looks like a software issue.
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From what I have heard, it looks like a software issue.
Are you calling me soft? :o
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What I'm not getting, and has never been explained. Is in order to have total uncontrolled acceleration, you have to have total failure of 4 systems all at the same time.
1.) Total failure of throttle control causing it to go into full open.
2.) Total failure of the braking system. Standing on the brake pedal will stop ANY car regardless of throttle position or engine size. Drag racers have been doing this for years, it's called "Brake Torquing". Hurst Corporation even sells a device for it called a "Line-Lock". I had one on a 396-375 HP Chevy Nova. With the front wheels locked the car wouldn't go anywhere.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb85hisg8Kc
3.) Total failure of the transmission linkage. Any automatic transmission will allow you to shift the car into neutral at any time. Some models require slight pressure on the brake pedal. You would, or should, be standing on the brake pedal anyway in this situation. Standard transmissions require just simply depressing the clutch pedal.
4.) Total failure of the ignition switch. Simply turning the key off kills the ignition. Most all vehicles have a position between "OFF" and "LOCK" that will allow you to kill the engine without locking the steering column.
The odds of all of these systems failing all at the same time would literally have to be in the billions. Bill T.
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What I'm not getting, and has never been explained. Is in order to have total uncontrolled acceleration, you have to have total failure of 4 systems all at the same time.
1.) Total failure of throttle control causing it to go into full open.
2.) Total failure of the braking system. Standing on the brake pedal will stop ANY car regardless of throttle position or engine size. Drag racers have been doing this for years, it's called "Brake Torquing". Hurst Corporation even sells a device for it called a "Line-Lock". I had one on a 396-375 HP Chevy Nova. With the front wheels locked the car wouldn't go anywhere.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb85hisg8Kc
3.) Total failure of the transmission linkage. Any automatic transmission will allow you to shift the car into neutral at any time. Some models require slight pressure on the brake pedal. You would, or should, be standing on the brake pedal anyway in this situation. Standard transmissions require just simply depressing the clutch pedal.
4.) Total failure of the ignition switch. Simply turning the key off kills the ignition. Most all vehicles have a position between "OFF" and "LOCK" that will allow you to kill the engine without locking the steering column.
The odds of all of these systems failing all at the same time would literally have to be in the billions. Bill T.
Well, the way I understand it there is no direct link between the peddle and the throttle on the engine. Its a wireless connection. So I would think that it has to be a software issue and that there is some glitch where the computer tells the throttle to go wide open. Also, I believe most of the problems - and the deaths - have occured with the cars that have the new keyless ignition. I have heard in news reports that the people tried to put their cars into neutral and even turn them off, but have no way of doing so once the throttle gets stuck.
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Has anyone bothered to check WHO was driving the offending vehicle when the problems started? I wonder if the demographic is predomiately of one gender/age group over another.
When this first came up, I went over, in detail with my wife and daughter, the steps they should take if this ever happen when they were driving. Both had never considered it.
It was part of our drivers training back in the 70's.
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Has anyone bothered to check WHO was driving the offending vehicle when the problems started? I wonder if the demographic is predomiately of one gender/age group over another.
When this first came up, I went over, in detail with my wife and daughter, the steps they should take if this ever happen when they were driving. Both had never considered it.
It was part of our drivers training back in the 70's.
The car that was on the phone with 911 when they died was driven by a cop.
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The car that was on the phone with 911 when they died was driven by a cop.
That's unfortunate!
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when rolling the gas will always over come the brake. from a standing start, no, but at speed, you would be amazed at how little it takes to glaze over brakes.
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when rolling the gas will always over come the brake. from a standing start, no, but at speed, you would be amazed at how little it takes to glaze over brakes.
"Here, hold my beer" ;D
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The car that was on the phone with 911 when they died was driven by a cop.
A local radio personality devoted a part of his program to the issue of "software" problems with Toyota/Lexus vehicles. One of his callers had stated that the Lexus involved in the California incident would not shift into neutral due to the runaway acceleration. He has the same model vehicle that was involved, so he went out on I10 west of Houston and did his own "unscientific" test. He was able to shift into neutral with his foot on the accelerator, off the accelerator and on the brake, and on the accelerator and the brake at the same time. The fact that a police officer was at the wheel doesn't mean that the driver didn't panic.
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The fact that a police officer was at the wheel doesn't mean that the driver didn't panic.
Very true. The way some of the cops drive around here, sticking gas pedals are about the very least of their worries. Bill T.
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Very true. The way some of the cops drive around here, sticking gas pedals are about the very least of their worries. Bill T.
I was going to say something similar but was trying to be nice! Fact is, most of the police I've come across here in MA are on the "not too bright" side of the Mensa curve...
Either way, I've never driven a car that couldn't be stopped by dropping it into the lowest gear and letting the engine blow or slow the vehicle to a manageable speed. I've never driven a "fly by wire" vehicle, maybe somethings are just not possible.
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lots of newer cars even have electornic controls for the shifter. I'm not sure about the cars in question, but it would not shock me one bit if they did.
The only reason we have drive by wire is emission control.
what blows me away are things like one of my wifes co workers BMW. it does not have a oil dipstick. it only has electronic one. Also the oil drain and fill are simlar to airline fitting. only really BMW uses them, so for example you can't even change the oil on the car in your drive way...
give me points and a carb.
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what blows me away are things like one of my wifes co workers BMW. it does not have a oil dipstick. it only has electronic one. Also the oil drain and fill are simlar to airline fitting. only really BMW uses them, so for example you can't even change the oil on the car in your drive way...
Doesn't BMW give you free oil changes for 100,000 miles? I would bet, since their demographic doesn't include do it yourself type of buyers, they do this to prevent operator error during the warranty period. Either way, if you can afford one, you don't really care what it cost to maintain one.
As far as Lexus, it's just an expensive Toyota ain't it?
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It does not have a oil dipstick. it only has electronic one. Also the oil drain and fill are similar to airline fitting. only really BMW uses them, so for example you can't even change the oil on the car in your drive way...
I don't understand? Why can't you change your own oil? I would never buy a car like that. Bill T.
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The drain and fill ports have BMW only fittings that take hose fitting that currently only the BMW dealer has. Think of them as snap lock fittings for hydrolic or air lines. I would never buy a BMW, I know way to many people that have way to many probs with them.
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why would any one want a car with a few nick names like this
Bavarian Murder Weapon
Born Moderately Wealthy
Big Money Waste
Big Mexican Weiner
Big midget Wang
Black Mans Willy
Brought Me Worries
Beats My Wood
Borrows My Wallet
Buffoon Made Waste
Broke My Wallet
Brings Me Women
Bought My Wife
Breaks Most Wrenches
Beautiful Mechanical Wonder
Black Man's Wheels
Be My Wife
Black Man's Wish
Big Money Waster
Break My Window
Bring Money With
do you thing they just brought in to Govenment Motors with a fine like that...
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/news/toyota-wont-admit-hiding-defects-in-us16m-settlement-with-us/story-e6frg90x-1225855582298
TOYOTA Motor is expected to pay $US16.4 million ($17.8m) to settle charges by the US government without admitting that it knowingly hid evidence of defects from safety regulators, a senior US Transportation Department official said overnight.
An agreement that doesn't require Toyota to admit wrongdoing could help the company defend itself against the numerous civil lawsuits pending in US courts, the official said.
The payment, which could be agreed upon as early as today, would be the largest ever assessed against an auto-maker in connection with an alleged violation of US vehicle safety laws, Transportation Department officials said.
Toyota's troubles with the US government may not be over. The department's National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is continuing its investigation into Toyota, reviewing more than 100,000 documents, and more fines are possible, a Transportation Department official said.
A Toyota official said yesterday that the company would make a statement today about the civil penalty. People familiar with the auto-maker's deliberations said the company is expected to agree to the settlement.
The fine is relatively small compared with Toyota's sales and assets, but it is another in a series of blows to the reputation of a company that consumers and rivals once held up as a paragon in the auto industry for the quality of its engineering.
Plaintiffs' lawyers who have sued the auto-maker likened the agreement to a no-contest plea. “It is Toyota saying, ‘We will pay, but won't admit we should pay’,” said Houston attorney Mark Lanier, who has filed several Toyota suits. “But in this case, the government should not be settling for this. This is not your normal case.”
Under pressure from US highway safety regulators, Toyota in January recalled 2.3 million vehicles to repair sticky accelerators that could be slow to return to idle.
Earlier this month, US Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood charged that Toyota officials knew about the sticky-pedal problem for four months before disclosing it to federal safety authorities.
The US investigation, conducted by the NHTSA, concluded that Toyota knew of the “sticky pedal” defect as early as September 29, 2009, when the company sent instructions for repair procedures to distributors in 31 European countries and Canada to respond to complaints about the sticky pedals and sudden acceleration. Documents show Toyota was aware of similar issues with its vehicles in the US, but didn't agree to a US recall until January, the agency said two weeks ago.
The sticky pedal problem doesn't involve a major safety concern and hasn't caused any serious accidents. But the recall prompted the company to halt sales and production of eight of its top-selling vehicles, shining a light on Toyota's safety record and its problems with sudden acceleration.
NHTSA officials had been frustrated with Toyota for its slow response late last year to a recall involving floor mats trapping the gas pedal to wide open throttle position. That problem has caused several fatal accidents and involved the recall of 5.4 million vehicles in the US. When NHTSA officials learned that the company was withholding information about the sticky-pedal problem, they demanded immediate action from Toyota. That led to the continuing congressional probes.
Transportation Department officials concluded that trying to compel Toyota to formally concede wrongdoing would have likely required a lengthy court battle. Officials instead opted to go with the current agreement and minimise the taxpayer cost, an official with the department said. “By paying the full civil penalty, Toyota is accepting responsibility for hiding this safety defect from NHTSA in violation of the law,” a senior DOT official said.
After Toyota president Akio Toyoda admitted on Capitol Hill in March that the company hadn't reacted as swiftly as it should have to safety complaints, the Japanese auto-maker has been trying to demonstrate that it will respond to safety issues more swiftly.
Last Friday, the auto-maker recalled 600,000 Sienna minivans to fix possible corrosion of a cable in some cold weather climates. The recall was prompted after receiving three complaints about the issue, according to a person familiar with the matter.
Last week, when Consumer Reports magazine warned buyers of a safety problem with the 2010 Lexus GX 460, Toyota halted sales of the luxury sport utility vehicle globally, stopped production and tested its whole fleet of SUVs. The company was able to recreate the problem and is planning to recall the vehicle, which went on sale in November, according to the person familiar with Toyota's plans.
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration head David Strickland said last week that, since January, Toyota's responsiveness to NHTSA had improved, and he commended their response to the potential safety problems with the Lexus GX 460.
The controversy is exacting a toll on Toyota in other ways. The company has increased spending on discounts to spur sales of vehicles in the US - an effort that produced a 41 per cent bounce in March sales compared to a year earlier. And it faces a growing collection of civil lawsuits over sudden acceleration.
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The drain and fill ports have BMW only fittings that take hose fitting that currently only the BMW dealer has. Think of them as snap lock fittings for hydrolic or air lines. I would never buy a BMW, I know way to many people that have way to many probs with them.
I wonder if they can be removed, and a conventional drain plug installed? I installed a pair of the Fram "Sure Drain" oil pan plugs on both my truck and Mel's 5.0 Mustang. The Mustang required 2 because the oil pan goes over the front cross member. It really makes changing the oil easy. Your hands stay clean, and you don't get burned by the hot oil running all over your hands. When not in use it has a brass cap that seals with an O-Ring. Even if the valve failed oil would not leak out because of this feature. I've had them on both vehicles for about 6 years now. Bill T.
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I don't understand? Why can't you change your own oil? I would never buy a car like that. Bill T.
Because the mope who buy these tend not to be the self-reliant types who have the money to pay someone else to do it, and not the brains to realize they can do it for a fraction of the money they are spending.