The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: ericire12 on April 14, 2010, 11:15:17 AM
-
http://www.officer.com/interactive/2010/04/13/patrol-rifles/
That all said, I was intrigued by the current results of the poll we’re running (found elsewhere on the home page). The poll question is this and the answers follow:
What long gun do you have in your patrol vehicle? (I assume that it is there legally and within departmental policy)
17% - None. Whether by choice or policy, these officers have no distance engagement choice beyond their handgun.
2% - Pistol-caliber carbines. (see the comments above about a compromise)
2% - Pump-action rifle. (see other comments above about a compromise)
41% - Semi-automatic patrol rifle (I cheered for this number)
6% - Select fire rifle. (I can’t help but wonder if these are all SWAT guys)
32% - Shotgun (second largest response)
The current sampling is just under 1,000 votes so it’s fairly comprehensive but far from “scientific”.
-
Semi Auto slug gun 5 in 5 on.
-
I don't have a patrol vehicle. :(
-
I don't have a patrol vehicle. :(
Neither do I, although I do put my mini-14 in my pickup's rifle rack.
Unless I've got my AK, or my AR, or my lever actions, or my hunting rifle, or my.............
-
When I worked LE I carried a Remington 870 with an extended tube loaded with OO buck and 5 slugs carried on the reciever.
Couldn't afford a carbine and dept regs didn't allow.
-
I'll tell you that most Central Texas, metro area, police have got carbines. And State polices have all got AR's and 870's, or 590A1's, in the same vehicle. And not to long ago every so many State officers carried bolt or pump action scoped Remington 30-06 rifles, for 'marksman' use, lots were leftovers from decades gone bye.
Lots of gear, but I've never met a LEO I thought was a decent shot. Most only shoot when they have to qualify. I put more rounds down range in an hour than they would all year.
-
The SD here carrys a 870 and a AR.
I don't think they need the AR, a 870 with buck and slugs is more then enough for a patrol car.
-
I don't think they need the AR, a 870 with buck and slugs is more then enough for a patrol car.
Oh TAB, there you go again, falling into the same trap as those idiot gun grabbers on the left. I guess "those rifles" only belong on a battle field dont they? Perhaps we should start limiting Officers to 10 rd "clips" too. ::)
-
Oh TAB, there you go again, falling into the same trap as those idiot gun grabbers on the left. I guess "those rifles" only belong on a battle field dont they? Perhaps we should start limiting Officers to 10 rd "clips" too. ::)
If the law applys to me, it should apply to LEOs as well. Infact when I polled both here and THR, almost every one was in favor of laws that apply to the public also applying to LEOs.
a few years back not to far from here 3 officers were envoled in a shooting. long story short 50+ rounds fired at less then 20 ft. 2 hand guns and a AR. One officer emptyed his side arm, reloaded and fired some more. the officer witht the ar emptyed it. the last officer fired twice. there were only 2 hits, both from the guy that fired twice. one of the hits was in the hand, the other was in the foot.
They don't know how to use the tools they have now, why should we give them more tools?
-
If the law applys to me, it should apply to LEOs as well. Infact when I polled both here and THR, almost every one was in favor of laws that apply to the public also applying to LEOs.
a few years back not to far from here 3 officers were envoled in a shooting. long story short 50+ rounds fired at less then 20 ft. 2 hand guns and a AR. One officer emptyed his side arm, reloaded and fired some more. the officer witht the ar emptyed it. the last officer fired twice. there were only 2 hits, both from the guy that fired twice. one of the hits was in the hand, the other was in the foot.
They don't know how to use the tools they have now, why should we give them more tools?
Thats a great example if you are trying to make the case that officers should not have ANY guns. But you are saying that they should not have those evil assault rifles..... Should I just jump to the conclusion that you are ok with the bolt action .308s they have had for decades or perhaps the pump action .223s that many issue?
I agree that the laws should also apply to LEOs (Dont live in Kalifornistan and you will have a few more freedoms)... I'll also raise you that the law should apply to the FEDs too. Its easier to keep a tyranical govt from imposing their will upon you if you have the force multiplier of FULL AUTO!
-
There is no need for a bolt action 308 locally. I also don't see a need for a pump action 223. If they do need a rifle, why not a lever gun? Think about it, its a more public friendly weapon, they are not lacking in firepower, or capcity. The only real down side too them is thier reloading time.
All of this, "we needz more weaponz" ( with a z on purpose) came about after the WHW shoot out. Now granted they only had 9 mm and buck shot, but still not a single officer could figure out thier legs do not have body armor? wound the SOB, let him bleed to death. Hell most officers never even got a shot off on them.
The lack of training is what cuased all that mess, not thier lack of tools.
-
There is no need for a bolt action 308 locally. I also don't see a need for a pump action 223. If they do need a rifle, why not a lever gun? Think about it, its a more public friendly weapon, they are not lacking in firepower, or capcity. The only real down side too them is thier reloading time.
All of this, "we needz more weaponz" ( with a z on purpose) came about after the WHW shoot out. Now granted they only had 9 mm and buck shot, but still not a single officer could figure out thier legs do not have body armor? wound the SOB, let him bleed to death. Hell most officers never even got a shot off on them.
The lack of training is what cuased all that mess, not thier lack of tools.
On the morning of Feb. 28, 1997, after months of preparation, including extensive reconnoitering of their intended target—the Bank of America branch on Laurel Canyon Boulevard—Phillips and Matasareanu loaded five illegally modified, fully automatic rifles: three Romanian AIM rifles (an AKM copy), a modified HK91 and an AR-15. They also possessed two 9 mm Beretta 92F pistols, a .38-caliber revolver, and approximately 3,300 rounds of ammunition in box and drum magazines, and made their way from their apartment to the bank in a white Chevrolet Celebrity. They wore their full-suit body armor, as well as metal trauma plates to protect vital organs, and they took the barbiturate phenobarbital to calm their nerves.
According to: Critical Situation, "North Hollywood Shoot-out"; Robinson
I had to put that in, but I do agree that training was the larger issue.
-
There is no need for a bolt action 308 locally. I also don't see a need for a pump action 223. If they do need a rifle, why not a lever gun? Think about it, its a more public friendly weapon, they are not lacking in firepower, or capcity. The only real down side too them is thier reloading time.
All of this, "we needz more weaponz" ( with a z on purpose) came about after the WHW shoot out. Now granted they only had 9 mm and buck shot, but still not a single officer could figure out thier legs do not have body armor? wound the SOB, let him bleed to death. Hell most officers never even got a shot off on them.
The lack of training is what cuased all that mess, not thier lack of tools.
Ok then, I nominate Tab to tell the officers responding to the barricaded gunman, that they really don't need a semi auto rifle, or an accurate sniper weapon. They can have a safe an effective barricade with their Glock sidearms. They just need better training.
-
what does full-suit body armor mean?
The ones I've seen, that actually do cover the entire body, make it so they are extremly hard to move in.
From the videos I've seen, I really dobut thats what they were wearing.
-
Ok then, I nominate Tab to tell the officers responding to the barricaded gunman, that they really don't need a semi auto rifle, or an accurate sniper weapon. They can have a safe an effective barricade with their Glock sidearms. They just need better training.
we are talking about beat cops here, not swat. not many probs that a side arm and a 12 ga can't solve.
I don't know about your local LEOs, but around here, they are trained to take on a barricaded gun men with out lots and lots of back up. Even when they have all that back up and swat. its normally a waiting game anyways.
-
what does full-suit body armor mean?
The ones I've seen, that actually do cover the entire body, make it so they are extremly hard to move in.
From the videos I've seen, I really dobut thats what they were wearing.
I watched something about this on the History Channel one time. They said these guys had made their own body armor. They had sewn plates into their clothes. I'm sorry I forget what the material was. But they were actually very creative, and effective. They had ballistic protection for their whole upper body and the fronts of their legs.
-
Ok then, I nominate Tab to tell the officers responding to the barricaded gunman, that they really don't need a semi auto rifle, or an accurate sniper weapon. They can have a safe an effective barricade with their Glock Colt Police Positive revolvers sidearms. They just need better training.
Fixed for the purposes of TAB being able to sleep at night
-
I watched something about this on the History Channel one time. They said these guys had made their own body armor. They had sewn plates into their clothes. I'm sorry I forget what the material was. But they were actually very creative, and effective. They had ballistic protection for their whole upper body and the fronts of their legs.
Aramid.
We used it in heat resistant gloves in our foundry where I used to work. Tough stuff.
http://www.aramid.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramid
In certain parts of the videos of the shoot-out, you can see the bulk of the pads under their pants legs.
-
Thanks Peg!
-
Most of the SD and PD in my area carry both. Some sort of shotgun and also some kind of rifle. The county I use to work for had Mossy 500's with ghost ring sights and an AR15 of whatever brand. I don't know why there were several different brands but for whatever the reason there were a few Olympic arms and a couple of armalites and I think one colt even. Couple others too but it has been 2 years now.
-
My b-i-l is a local area cop. They carry 12ga. shotguns and have to qualify with them when they do their twice-a-year qualifications. It varies around here by department. I know of one county sheriff department that has some deputies that carry .40 S&W Kel-Tec Sub-2000 compact rifles that use the same ammo and mags as their issued Glock 22's. They fold them up and carry them in their duty bags with spare ammo and mags.
-
If the law applys to me, it should apply to LEOs as well. Infact when I polled both here and THR, almost every one was in favor of laws that apply to the public also applying to LEOs.
Wrong argument. There should be damn few laws that apply to us - and them as well. Let's stay focused on removing some or most of the 22,000+ gun laws in this country.
a few years back not to far from here 3 officers were envoled in a shooting. long story short 50+ rounds fired at less then 20 ft. 2 hand guns and a AR. One officer emptyed his side arm, reloaded and fired some more. the officer witht the ar emptyed it. the last officer fired twice. there were only 2 hits, both from the guy that fired twice. one of the hits was in the hand, the other was in the foot.
Discussed many times - same happens in NYC and Chicago - cops usually can't hit anything under stress.
They don't know how to use the tools they have now, why should we give them more tools?
Completely different discussion.
BTTT
Our local county SO all carry carbines in the trunk of the squad cars - even the senior officers.
-
I don't know what the rest of them carry but one of Laconia's Officers used a 12 gauge on a Bear a couple years back .
By the same token I can see TAB's point, Where he is , is not "South Central" or Belfast.
In that area handling "wealthy a hole's" is a more important skill than shooting.
-
I don't know what the rest of them carry but one of Laconia's Officers used a 12 gauge on a Bear a couple years back .
By the same token I can see TAB's point, Where he is , is not "South Central" or Belfast.
In that area handling "wealthy a hole's" is a more important skill than shooting.
I think probably the best approach would be to outfit every patrol car with a 12ga and an AR, but then lay out very specific regulations about when you can and can not bring out the big guns.......
Active shooter - Good
Traffic stop - Bad
-
I am Zoolander!!
-
I think probably the best approach would be to outfit every patrol car with a 12ga and an AR, but then lay out very specific regulations about when you can and can not bring out the big guns.......
Active shooter - Good
Traffic stop - Bad
what can a AR do that a 12 ga with slugs not do?
I don't want a (local) beat cop taking a long range shot, or shooting around a hostage, for the most part, they could not hit the board side of a barn from inside the barn.
-
what can a AR do that a 12 ga with slugs not do?
I don't want a (local) beat cop taking a long range shot, or shooting around a hostage, for the most part, they could not hit the board side of a barn from inside the barn.
Fire 30 shots without reloading.
-
Fire 30 shots without reloading.
5 rounds of buck shot has 50% more projectiles...
also see the story I told in this thread how a beat cop emptyed a ar at very close range and did not get a single hit.
-
what can a AR do that a 12 ga with slugs not do?
I don't want a (local) beat cop taking a long range shot, or shooting around a hostage, for the most part, they could not hit the board side of a barn from inside the barn.
Not to self - Stop responding to anything TAB posts. ::)
-
Not to self - Stop responding to anything TAB posts. ::)
Makes you miss FQ doesn't it ;D
-
what can a AR do that a 12 ga with slugs not do?
I don't want a (local) beat cop taking a long range shot, or shooting around a hostage, for the most part, they could not hit the board side of a barn from inside the barn.
In the case of the Hollywood dudes and the body armor ... one effective right between the eyes, the only effective target not covered by armor, from a block away and behind cover!
-
lol :)