The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Rastus on May 15, 2010, 07:05:37 PM
-
First, I am not in a position to build a new house, but I am considering moving a few miles which will cause me to build predicated on a sell where I am. To understand what I can and cannot do, I need to get a ROM cost comparison to build a Poly Steel (foam block, steel rebar, poured concrete walls) or like home vs. normal stick and mortar brick.
Anybody out there have an idea if it is cheaper or more expensive. I know it will relate to concrete costs and how thick the walls are...I'm a chicken when it comes to these Oklahoma tornadoes.
Also...I want to have ceiling joists, rafters, trusses etc. out of steel. Who makes good steel to replace wooden 2x4, 2x6's, 2x8's and so on with steel equivalents?
The long range plan is basement, concrete walls, steel rafters tied into the concrete walls and probably single story. I'm building for our future exorbinent energy costs that are on the way about 5 or so years out, so I will include things like a double roof that vents in between and out the ridge, etc.
Helpful ideas, ways to estimate costs, construction material suppliers and the like would be appreciated.
Gotta sell this house and buy some property, then build...it's gonna be busy for a while and we'll live in a shop for a while during construction if we go forward with this.
First things first, I need to get some info on costs estimation. I also plan on using union carpenters as possible on this project so if anyone has an idea of the part they can play in a concrete home, please let me know that too.
Any help is appreciated.
Thanks,
Ken
-
Raises hand ;D
ICF are both good and bad. As to rather they are cheaper then stick building, its going to depend on 3 factors, your distance the ICF need to be shiped, the local labor rate for frameing and your local concreate costs.
-
Have you looked into subterranean (earth shelter, earth berm) homes? I'm not sure what the cost is in comparison to more traditional building methods, but they would be unequaled in both strength and utility savings. Something to consider, anyway.
Swoop
-
Have you looked into subterranean (earth shelter, earth berm) homes? I'm not sure what the cost is in comparison to more traditional building methods, but they would be unequaled in both strength and utility savings. Something to consider, anyway.
Swoop
every notice how those homes are only built in places that don't rain or freeze... there is a reason for that. ;D
-
every notice how those homes are only built in places that don't rain or freeze... there is a reason for that. ;D
Actually TAB, the freeze depth average in the northern states is between 3 and 5 feet. Earth berm type homes are actually quite efficient as the temperature below the freeze line rarely gets below 56 degrees.
Iceland for example, had been building earthen homes for a thousand years.
-
if you are bellow the frost line you are fine, but the deeper you go the more it costs. The main prob with those homes is water.
Trying to prevent it from getting in. There are 2 main methods for that. 1 spraying on a sealant(generally a type of rubber or tar) 2 building it out of 6 sack or better. Both of those options are very expensive. if it leaks, legally it can be condemend in ALL 50 STATES
-
The wife won't go for subterranean. Basement, yes...dirt piled on sides or top of home....nope. It would save a lot of money to do that...a friend of a friend has one and has about a $50 a month heating and cooling bill...at least that's what it was 5 years ago and he isn't concerned about tornados.
TAB, I've no idea about the Tulsa area frame rates. I refuse to use anyone illegal, so the price I would have to pay would be higher than the average. ICF...you lost me on the acronym. I am assuming you mean constrution of forms with poured/pumped concrete.
6 yards of 3000 psi concrete delivered is about $500, add $5/yd per 500 psi increase. What strength concrete should I use in the home? I am thinking towards the max with fiberglass mix in it for reinforcement. That's in trailers mixed onsite.
Late minute adder. TAB, no problem with water at this location, if I do move the grade will drop 50' about the same distance behind the homesite so sealing and draining won't be a problem for the basement.
-
ICF= Insulated Concrete Forms its the sytrofoam blocks/ panels you then pore mix into.
here in a nut shell are thier pros and cons..
pros,
great insulation ( everything from termal, to noise)
fast build times for simple structures(4 corner/6 corner houses)
lower labor rates with experanced crews( crews that are not use to them will cost you way more)
They can offer strom protection( for more money of corse)
cons
hard to modify latter down the road( in all aspects,)
higher cost for materials.
limiting design options. ( generally fixed diametions and simple angles only, stuff can be made to order or cut and sealled on site, but its $$$$$$$$$$)
some systems have limited siding/ int fisnihing options.
small mistakes like misted ties, wires/ pluming in the wrong place all of which must be installed pre pore cost big bucks to fix.(see the pro above about exp crews)
just for the record I've built 6 homes with ICF, every thing from a 1200 sqft 6 corner, to a 6500 sqft monster that was very complex( should have stick built that)
-
Rastus,
I've lilved in the midwest, lived through the storms, the frozen north and the extremely wet springtimes that you have. I've also lived through one winter near the arctic circle where the wind on a normal December day averaged 60 MPH.
My recommendation would be to find a guy with local building experience to engineer the structure to withstand the nasty weather, provide a comfortable home in both the extreme heat and extreme cold and provide a safe hideout for the family during the revolution if and when it comes.
I respect the folks that build houses but if I were living where you live, there ain't NO WAY I'd live in a stick built house.
I'd live in a mobile home, you know they never get hit by bad weather!
;D
-
Here is a link you might find helpful.
http://www.forms.org/content.cfm?act=constructioncost
How much does an ICF house cost?
Houses built by experienced contractors cost about .5-4% more than wood frame houses of the same design.
Typical new U.S. homes cost $60-100 per square foot. Building walls of ICFs adds $1.00-$4.00 to this figure. But since ICF houses are more energy-efficient, the heating and cooling equipment can be smaller than in a frame house. This can cut the cost of the final house by an estimated $.75 per square foot. So the net extra cost is about $.25-$3.25.
Why is there such a big range in the costs?
The cost of using any construction product is pushed up or down by dozens of factors that change from house to house. But for experienced crews, the major influences on ICF cost are fairly predictable.
To begin you can assume that your house will cost $2.00 more per square foot to build with ICFs. This is near the middle of the historical range. Then adjust this cost premium according to the particular features of your construction project:
If you can buy ICF forms for $2.00 per square foot Subtract $.50
If you buy ICF forms for $3.00 per square foot Add $.50
If you will finish the exterior with stucco Subtract $.50
If you will finish the exterior with individual shingles Add $.30
If you will build the house to resist high winds Subtract $.50
If you will build the house to resist earthquake Add $.15
If the cost of wood rises to $4 per stud Subtract $.20
If the cost of wood falls to $2.25 per stud Add $.12
If you can buy concrete for $35 per cubic yard Subtract $.16
If you buy concrete for $65 per cubic yard Add $.13
If your design includes cantilevered floors or walls Consult an engineer
-
ICF= Insulated Concrete Forms its the sytrofoam blocks/ panels you then pore mix into.
here in a nut shell are thier pros and cons..
pros,
great insulation ( everything from termal, to noise)
fast build times for simple structures(4 corner/6 corner houses)
lower labor rates with experanced crews( crews that are not use to them will cost you way more)
They can offer strom protection( for more money of corse)
cons
hard to modify latter down the road( in all aspects,)
higher cost for materials.
limiting design options. ( generally fixed diametions and simple angles only, stuff can be made to order or cut and sealled on site, but its $$$$$$$$$$)
some systems have limited siding/ int fisnihing options.
small mistakes like misted ties, wires/ pluming in the wrong place all of which must be installed pre pore cost big bucks to fix.(see the pro above about exp crews)
just for the record I've built 6 homes with ICF, every thing from a 1200 sqft 6 corner, to a 6500 sqft monster that was very complex( should have stick built that)
I'm shooting for about a 1/2 monster. My dad was a house contractor when I was a toddler, got out of it into heavy construction, but he helped kinfolks build homes and I was there with him. I was admonished to always check, double check, then wait and come back a day later an check again all of the drains, pipe penetrations, etc in a slab...as well as to make certain everything was square, not just that the sides were the right length....and a few other things. I'll have a lot to learn and relearn in this process but planning saves a lot of $$$$'s and sometimes saves quite a bit of time. Saving $$$'s will be where it's at.
Modification later in life will be a big zero. I like the noise proof...that is really cool. A friend lived a few years in the ICF house below me and quiet is where it's at...also, if this project moves forward this year and I build where I want to the wife won't hear me shooting out the back door.
So...what about steel instead of wood for ceilings and rafters? I don't know a good manufacturer. All I've seen are a few adds and some of the junk they use in office walls. Back 25 years ago or so I was told if you wanted to make a span with steel that a wood 2x6 would make you need to use a steel 2x8 and so on...the steel products would deflect more than the wood. Who to use, what's a good brand/model? I'll need to ferret those costs too. I don't want to use wood for the ceiling and rafters and I do want the ceiling joists/trusses tied into the concrete walls for a little extra protection from tornados. Extra width for insulation would be great...I'll want 12" in the ceiling with the vented roof/rafters.
Timothy, I'm on top of a hill right now and we routinely get 70 mph winds with thunderstorms here just north of Tulsa. Last week we hit 85-90 mph. My current home is brick and stick construction and we don't have any problems. If I get what I'd like, the location is remote so I am not too worried about the revolution finding me. Too few people to trouble with there won't be enough to loot and too far off the beaten path to be an issue....they'll lose interest before finding me.
-
Here is a link you might find helpful.
............
Thanks for the information. Now I can start scrawling and plotting.
I will be adding for high winds and earthquakes. OKC experienced 50 earthquakes in 3-1/2 months this year...the normal amount in a year is fewer than that. I picked up earthquake insurance a month ago....you never know.
-
I'd like to know where you can buy mix for $65/ yd its ~ $200/ yd in CA.
-
Modification later in life will be a big zero. I like the noise proof...that is really cool. A friend lived a few years in the ICF house below me and quiet is where it's at...also, if this project moves forward this year and I build where I want to the wife won't hear me shooting out the back door.
I just said inuslated, the windows and doors are where most of the noise comes from anyways. True comm'l quality windows is what you want to keep things quit inside. When I say modification later, I'm not talking about major remodels, I'm talking about dumb things like, I want a cable outlet here, a plug here and etc.
ICF are alot like SEP, great for the builder, but not so great to live in.
One of the good things about ICF, is for the most part, they can be installed by some one that is realtivly unskilled, but can read and fallow instructions( you would be amazed at how many people can not do that)
As too the steal raftors and the like, They are actually weaker then properly done wood trusses, they also cost alot more. With the proper storm ties, all the correct nails and other fasners. you will be fine. One thing I would highly recomend is having the ceilings supported by the walls and independent of the truss system. That way you have less chance of cracks forming.
If you are going to dig out for a basement anyways, i'd look into a prefabed concreate storm shelter. The modern prefab stuff is very good, its even out they make bank vualts.
-
Do you have a recommendation on xenon windows....who makes good ones? I need a good manufacturer recommendation even if I don't move forward on the move to fix the windows I now have with bad seals.
I was afraid the steel was still going to be weaker. I have looked into some Lite Deck supported concrete floors and concrete roof material. This may be the way I go....I need to get with somebody who designs concrete stuff.
-
I've heard basements are the cheapest square footage to build in a house.
If I were building I'd have a basement bigger than the house. That extended basement area would made a wonderful 'Man Cave". Gun room, work shop, safe room, den, space for all hobbies...probably no indoor range due to ventilation and damage to walls.
Might even manage a 'secret passage' to the cave. Small kitchen with refrigeration and wet bar.
Hmmm...wonder if we can get M'ette to move the corner to this cave?
-
I've heard basements are the cheapest square footage to build in a house. If I were building I'd have a basement bigger than the house. That extended basement area would made a wonderful 'Man Cave". Gun room, work shop, safe room, den, space for all hobbies...probably no indoor range due to ventilation and damage to walls.
Might even manage a 'secret passage' to the cave. Small kitchen with refrigeration and wet bar.
Hmmm...wonder if we can get M'ette to move the corner to this cave?
thats going to depend on a lot of factors, generally they are the cheapest remodel sqft you can add, they are not cheap to build.
-
Rastus, the last I heard concrete was going about $100 to $110 a yard. Winter 2008 when we built the barn concrete was $90 a yard.
Dave
-
I've heard basements are the cheapest square footage to build in a house.
If I were building I'd have a basement bigger than the house. That extended basement area would made a wonderful 'Man Cave". Gun room, work shop, safe room, den, space for all hobbies...probably no indoor range due to ventilation and damage to walls.
Might even manage a 'secret passage' to the cave. Small kitchen with refrigeration and wet bar.
Hmmm...wonder if we can get M'ette to move the corner to this cave?
Don't forget a toilet, and a stripper pole. ;D
Good idea, tho, build the basement larger than the house, all underground. Put in a storm shelter/cellar with a door in the back to the man cave. I like that idea!!!!
Rastus, you gonna get this house built or just sit around jawing about it all day?
We want a construction porn thread too!!
-
Don't forget a toilet,
Trust me, you don't want a san pump.
-
I've heard basements are the cheapest square footage to build in a house.
As far as equity goes, they also dont equal the same $$$'s as above ground square footage. I think it is something like 1/2 or 1/3..... ask a realtor
-
As far as equity goes, they also dont equal the same $$$'s as above ground square footage. I think it is something like 1/2 or 1/3..... ask a realtor
I'd trust a member of congress before I'd trust a realtor.
-
I'd trust a member of congress before I'd trust a realtor.
I'm just saying refer to them for what it actually is. $ per sq ft is calculated different for basements
-
I'm pretty sure they are the ones that got us into the housing mess we are in now, by giving out that info.
-
Rastus, the last I heard concrete was going about $100 to $110 a yard. Winter 2008 when we built the barn concrete was $90 a yard.
Dave
$85 a yard was an advertised price on the internet from Tulsa....mix with water onsite. It's basically a hopper trailer or truck of dry mix...I don't know if that will work or would be wise when trying to pour walls. I would think that with the lack of activity in homebuilding we'll see some price constriction for a while.
.........
Rastus, you gonna get this house built or just sit around jawing about it all day?...........
Just talking for now. Lots of hurdles....the first was getting the wife on board. Accomplished. 2nd will be to tie the sale of my house to the property purchase (and getting them down 10% on the land)....there is 2-4 weeks worth of work to do on that getting the house in shape to proceed. 3rd would be to sell the house. 4th is a big deal that overshawdows....stable job. I'm working now but would be more confident working somewhere else....I'm in a zoo of yes men right now and I tell it straight so there is some tension at work. Having lunch with a former co-worker to try to glass this one over pretty quick....we'll see.
I'd trust a member of congress before I'd trust a realtor.
Amen brother. I dunno, wait a minute and let me think about that one.