The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: ericire12 on May 24, 2010, 11:41:42 AM
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http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/05/24/ruger-lcr-kaboom/?
(http://cdn1.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/tmp_ruger_lcr_kaboom-tm-tfb.jpg)
I was conducting a Concealed Carry Handgun class on 1 May 2010. There was a student training with a Ruger LCR that she stated had less than 100 rounds previously fired through it. She was using CCI Blazer 158 grain TMJ +P ammunition, and had fired approximately 25 rounds so far in the course without any cause for concern.
The student was in the middle of firing a two round engagement drill under my supervision; she fired one round then informed me that she thought her trigger was “stuck”. I took the firearm from her, assuming that she had possibly taken the cylinder out of battery, and attempted to put the cylinder back into battery. Upon looking, I noticed that part of the frame subassembly (the barrel sheath portion) was blown off, and the barrel split. I checked to see if the cylinder was stable, and the cylinder turned slightly in my hand before apparently being bound by the split barrel. I was able to clear the weapon, at which point we removed it from the firing line and inspected shooters for injuries. As there were no injuries resulting from this failure, we examined the firearm and replaced it on the firing line with one of my revolvers a S&W J Frame that performed flawlessly), so she could continue training.
In my opinion, this was most likely not a shooter or ammunition-induced failure. I checked the owner’s manual to ensure that this firearm was rated for +P ammunition, which it is. The cylinder and topstrap show no visible damage; neither does the right side of the firearm.
It appears that the chamber was not properly aligned with the bore when the round fired, and that the bullet struck the forcing cone out of alignment. The bullet most likely took the path of least resistance, leading to the catastrophic failure of the barrel and frame subassembly.
I have spoken with the VP of Ruger, as well as sending a letter to him concerning this failure; he seemed to be very interested and understanding of our concerns.
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Here we go again. ::)
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Here we go again. ::)
What? Figure she'll get a free hat out of it?
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Now I'm really really really really happy with my S & W J-Frame!!!
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Now I'm really really really really happy with my S & W J-Frame!!!
Me, too!
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Now I'm really really really really happy with my S & W J-Frame!!!
Me, too!
Me Three!
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What? Figure she'll get a free hat out of it?
Plus a free mag. Oops! Wrong recall. ;D
FQ13 who still really likes Ruger, but honestly.....
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Me Three!
Me Four!
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Plus a free mag. Oops! Wrong recall. ;D
FQ13 who still really likes Ruger, but honestly.....
This would be the proper place to use the term "CLIP". ;D
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Love my S P 101 HEAVY METAL
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That reminds me of the time I saw a spaghetti colt do the same thing and blow off the ejector. Bad things happen to any revolver when they go out of time.
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That reminds me of the time I saw a spaghetti colt do the same thing and blow off the ejector. Bad things happen to any revolver when they go out of time.
+1
One of the first things I did when I bought my Ruger was to read up on all the proper ways to check the timing and gaps.
My SP101 is a tank but I check the timing and tolerances when I clean it, without fail! Sure glad I didn't trade it in too soon on an LCR. ;)
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I just wonder how much worse this would have been if it had been one of the new .357 models and it was firing full load .357 magnums.
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I just wonder how much worse this would have been if it had been one of the new .357 models and it was firing full load .357 magnums.
Sadly, I will never know. To quote Haz 'I will let someone else do my beta testing". If I ever do get another .357 snubbie, it will be a Smith, or a Ruger in steel.
FQ13
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Sadly, I will never know. To quote Haz 'I will let someone else do my beta testing". If I ever do get another .357 snubbie, it will be a Smith, or a Ruger in steel.
FQ13
When the hell was I smart...err....sober enough to say some thing like that? ;D
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Damn, guess I'll keep my S&W 642!
JMHO
Richard
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Love my S P 101 HEAVY METAL
Heavy being the optimum word in that statement! ;D ;D ;D
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I've heard of this happening with other brands of revolvers also (someone in the comments section talked of his Colt doing the same thing). I don't think this is enough to damn the entire model, but Ruger needs to investigate thoroughly.
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Ya know, I think I remember seeing somewhere a picture of a S&W model 36 that had the same thing happen.
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I own plenty of Rugers and none have ever failed me. Anything mass produced be it guns,car parts,what ever theres going to be duds.
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I think that everyone is overlooking one BIG item. Blazer ammo in aluminum cased JUNK. I personally have had these cases burst,
have had hangfires and misfires. Luckily it has always happened while shooting them in a rifle and not a revolver. Mostly in 357 Mag. ammo but i feel sure it could in 38 Spl. also. Think about a hang fire while shooting double action! You pull the trigger on say shot three and you are shooting fast and didn't notice a click instead of boom , pull the trigger again the hangfire goes off while the cylinder is out of alignment of the barrel. Thats why I don't shoot Blazers anymore! :o
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As I found last year, not all Blazer is created equal. Some of them are brass cases and I'd bet that any +P probably was as well.
I just don't like them myself but I've never had a problem in the 100 or so I've shot including some in .38 spcl. Either way, I'll be holding off on the LCR a bit longer and stick with my little tank...
As others have noted, an SP101 makes a hell of a hammer when it runs dry!
;D
Update....according to the Blazer site, the +P ain't available in brass. I stand corrected..
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Ruger needs to stick with SA revolvers, and what they do best.
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Never had a problem with a variety of calibers of CCI Blazer ammo, but, I'll keep my M85 snubbie all the same.
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I've been using Blazer since it came out 30 years ago, neither I or any one I know has ever had or heard of problems with it. I bought Blazer Brass with out hesitation.
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I am not saying that the brass loaded Blazer ammo is JUNK, I'm saying that the aluminum cased stuff is. The gun shop I use refuses to sell it and I don't blame him for it! I worked at a aluminum smelter as a Plant Protection Officer for 14 years and I was told that aluminum is strong as long as it was alloyed right, but the blazer cases are probably made out of the same alloy as beer cans. The strength of the case and its stretching abilty makes all the difference in the world. Also its resistance to heat and expantion, thats why they don't put aluminum wiring in houses anymore, it gets warm and expands and then contracts more than copper wire, that in turn causes loose connections, that causes over heating and that in turn causes a fire! :'(
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I'm referring to the Al. cased Blazer.
Funny it's been on the market for 30 (ish ) years and you are the first person I ever heard complain about it.
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I'm referring to the Al. cased Blazer.
Funny it's been on the market for 30 (ish ) years and you are the first person I ever heard complain about it.
Gotta say, I've shot near my own weight in their .22LR and a fair few .38s with nary a hiccup.
FQ13
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I have shot the aluminum Blazer for yrs, usually in lost brass matches, ( that means when the case hits the ground, it belongs to the range ). The reason to do that is time, it prevents that 2-3 minutes per shooter per stage, to police brass. If you have 350-400 shooters like we do at the Glock match, that makes a big difference. Now is aluminum weaker than brass blazer, I would say yes and no, aluminum does not flow like brass in a chamber, Grouch since you only had trouble in the lever guns, sounds like the ramp portion of your barrel is too much for the aluminum to keep contained, in a revolver, the case would be completely supported. As to hang fires, I have not witnessed this in Blazer, and agreed, is a dangerous situation. As to failures to fire, I have seen a lot of this in the Glock matches, reason, cci primers are the hardest in the business, as much as I love Glocks, they have a lighter primer hit than a lot of other pistols. I had a case of Israel 9mm carbine ammo, said on the box, not for use in handguns, the stuff was loaded hot, and I would only get 50% of the ammo to go off in my M17, even after loading them again and taking 4-5 attempts. I kept all the unfired ammo home, next outing, I brought my 9mm 1911 and my CZ75, no ftf's, even on the stuff that had not gone off initially. Our ex Glock rep, John McNally had cases and cases of the aluminum stuff, and that is all he shot.
I have friend who reloads aluminum blazer, how can he do that with a Berdan primer, he uses Lee sizing die with the unbreakable decapping pin, and punches a 3rd flash hole in it, he only shoots this stuff in his Mac10, and blazer brass is free everywhere.
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My local range doesn't allow Blazer aluminum but I think its because they don't want the aluminum cases mixed in with the brass. They also don't allow anything with exposed lead, but that is for health reasons.
I got a couple boxes of .38 sp from a friend who didn't trust it after shooting some of it because the cases were splitting. To see if it was just his gun I tried it in my GP100 with the same results. I'm not reloading it so it didn't really matter to me or my GP100 that the cases split..
Its not something I would buy if anything else was available, but if its all I could find I would use it.
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Ruger needs to stick with SA revolvers, and what they do best.
And what exactly would that be? 10/22? Mark series? P-series? As an owner of all of them, I'd say Ruger has their stuff together. Just like any company, failures happen and in the gun world, where everything is rushed to market, recalls happen. This kaboom though, is one of kind as far as I can tell. I'll continue to buy my ruger autoloaders.
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+ one on the last comment. I own a few rugers and none of the them have ever failed me.
p89-p95-p90-kp345
gp100-sp101-superredhawk-blackhawk
10/22-pc9-pc4-mini14
M77 .270
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I don't like the styling on Ruger P series or other centerfire semi autos .
I've never shot one of their shotguns, But rifles, revolvers and .22's they rule.
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Anyone hear anything about this from Ruger?
Richard
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Steve over at The Firearm Blog runs kabooms all the time...this week's boom is an M14...yet only the Ruger gets recycled here. Why might that be?
If a specific type of handgun was blowing up all over the place, I'd expect whatever company involved to be all over it. That's not the case here. I'm sure the company is dealing with this ONE specific incident. If there is a systemic failure, believe me, the recall will be breath-taking, because doing anything less risks the entire company. That goes double for a public company, where stock prices are volatile.
You guys are smarter than the average bears, and you have a lot of experience. I know it's not the first time you've seen a gun kaboom. In your experience, how many times has a catastrophic failure been been the result of a badly designed gun versus ammo or what I might call "operator failure," e.g. firing a round with an obstruction in the barrel, firing a round unsuitable for the gun (a 9 X 23 in a 9mm Largo chamber), etc.? I've blown up 2 guns myself (a BHP and a 1911) and seen many more let go. In EVERY case it has been ammo or operator failure.
Guns do indeed fail, as do all the constructs of men. But when I lit up my own guns, my first thought wasn't, "Those damn fools at Browning and Colt don't know how to build a gun! If only I had bought a...whatever. Those SOBs had better cough up an explanation pretty darn fast!!!"
As far as ammo, I personally do not use aluminum-cased ammo. I tried it years ago as a competitor and had case-splitting issues. Not a huge number of them, but enough that I decided that the (then) price savings weren't worth it. Your mileage may vary.
Okay, rant mode off!
Michael B
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Sorry Michael, I was just curious to see what they blamed, reloads, OE or what. I am not ragging on Ruger or anything, just curious which I have a tendency to be. Don't want to make the same mistake myself! I took the post as a FYI and my ? was a FMI.
Richard
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So far,I havent had any KABOOMSKIS yet after 2,000 rounds of Hornady Crutucal Defense Ammo yet on either my .38 or .357 LCRs. I dont use that crappy aluminuim cased ammo either. rich642z
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Safe to say there isn't a single person here who hasn't used tons of CCI ammo before right? Probably been using it for YEARS just like I have. Even been through thousands and thousands of rounds of the stuff myself.
A few months ago I bought several box's that happen to be packaged in clear plastic (Maxi-Mag HP's). After having the stuff a few weeks I was preparing to load a magazine when I saw one round actually had the bullet pressed into the case at about a 60 degree angle! The plastic box was in perfect condition. NO WAY the damage occured after manufacturing. The outside of the cartridge was still round enough that it very likely would have chambered and fired in my bolt action. But the bullet was completely mutilated. Would it have caused a "kaboom" in the gun had it been fired? I'd guess YES! All the other rounds in the box appeared to be fine. They all fired and functioned fine. Just like the thousands of rounds of CCI stuff I used before that day and after.
When this chick didn't even notice the barrel was cracked in half after "the trigger of her gun appeared to be stuck". Do you think it's possible she may have loaded a defective round in the weapon?
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Safe to say there isn't a single person here who hasn't used tons of CCI ammo before right? Probably been using it for YEARS just like I have. Even been through thousands and thousands of rounds of the stuff myself.
A few months ago I bought several box's that happen to be packaged in clear plastic (Maxi-Mag HP's). After having the stuff a few weeks I was preparing to load a magazine when I saw one round actually had the bullet pressed into the case at about a 60 degree angle! The plastic box was in perfect condition. NO WAY the damage occured after manufacturing. The outside of the cartridge was still round enough that it very likely would have chambered and fired in my bolt action. But the bullet was completely mutilated. Would it have caused a "kaboom" in the gun had it been fired? I'd guess YES! All the other rounds in the box appeared to be fine. They all fired and functioned fine. Just like the thousands of rounds of CCI stuff I used before that day and after.
When this chick didn't even notice the barrel was cracked in half after "the trigger of her gun appeared to be stuck". Do you think it's possible she may have loaded a defective round in the weapon?
I've had boxes of PMC cowboy loads (in .45-70) that had 1/4 inch bulges near the case mouth of a couple of the rounds. (Used those rounds as pistol targets. My brother found one after I shot at it and said "Man! What happened here?" I told him "I shot at it because it had a big bulge in the case.")
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I have reservations even calling this a "Kaboom". All I see is where the gun shed some Polymer off the side of the barrel, exposing the steel barrel sleeve itself. Could be simple timing, possibly ammo, or all of the above. But this is hardly what I would classify as an exploded piece.
THIS IS A KABOOM!
(http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz50/billt460/M-1AKaboom.jpg)
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Ruger did have some problems with the first batches of the LCR when they first came out. The top strap was not hardened enough to specks that is why the person on the youtube vid had one of those first batches of the LCR. Now, the gun[revolvers of the LCR are working fine. I work parttime for a relative that took over my wholesale shop after I got sick and counldnt work anymore. So,now,when our handguns come in,I test fire them to make sure nothing is wrong. If it is,the gun gets sent back. So far,on the LCR,I have only sent back 3 of the new .357s. The firing pin wasnt long enough to hit the primer. A mistake from the factory and 3 new ones came in replacement of the 3 I sent back and no problem now.
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From experience in manufacturing I guarantee you that those short firing pins were operator error that he or she slipped past the inspectors.
The inspectors check one part every so often, usually your first piece of the shift, then one spot check before lunch and another after lunch. It is the operators responsibility to check parts on a set schedule, usually every 10th piece.
However, Manufacturing Managers, being penny pinching bean counters, the Operator stands just as much chance of getting fired for "to much scrap" as he does for letting it go. it is not in the workers best interest to scrap junk parts, those usually are caught in assembly because they don't fit, but with a firing pin being to short, the assembler would never know unless it happened to be one of the ones that got test fired.
I had a Dept supervisor named Kenny Lantz at T/C Arms tell me "Go ahead and send the junk, we have a lifetime replacement warranty, We have to make the ship date, we can fix the customers gun later."
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Tom, I could not put up with crap like that.
If it does not work, it does not work.
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Manufacturing Managers, being penny pinching bean counters, the Operator stands just as much chance of getting fired for "to much scrap" as he does for letting it go.
Other than GM, thirty years ago, I've only had one boss in the last three decades that required you to stop and make sure the parts were correct on the line.
It's another product of NAFTA, we can't compete with countries that will ship anything and everything they manufacture, regardless of how much crap they produce.
And yes, it pisses me off to the point of wanting to scream.
"There is never enough time to do it right but always enough time to do it twice!"
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Other than GM, thirty years ago, I've only had one boss in the last three decades that required you to stop and make sure the parts were correct on the line.
In parts I produce for the aerospace industry, for companies like Bell Helicopter and Hamilton Sundstrand, if I knowingly produced one single part that I knew was knowingly defective, and engaged in action to pass a knowingly defective part through inspection, and into the customers hands, and placed into service. I could not only be fired, but face criminal prosecution as well if it involved the loss of aircraft, payload and or crew.
This is as it should be. Is their any difference if a soldier finds out in combat he has a too short firing pin, or a helo pilot who finds out his collective won't produce proper pitch? In combat things have to be made right. I consider a citizen who buys a Glock from Cabela's for self defense as much "in combat" as a helo pilot on the stick at 2:00 AM in Afghanistan. Bill T.
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AS 9100 standards are as strict as the Nuclear Safety related or Navy Sub Safe systems, maybe more so! I made parts for the gas turbine industry myself the last five years or so.
Make the parts right or pay the consequences.
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This company I'm at now is certified ISO and AS, because Sergeant Controls is one of our main customers.
I have been friends with the QA inspector for years, he does not get raises.
He just got a review today, what the recently departed QA manager wrote about him had been torn out of the form and replaced by what amounts to a hate mail rant. Things rated 1 - 5 with 1 being the worst, He got 2's and 3's,.
The reason ? I have witnessed him telling the owner and his son "I'm not signing off on that piece of junk, if it goes, it will be on YOUR signature, not mine."
That part got shipped ::)
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We used to stamp out parts from rusty steel. None of us wanted to run it. The inspector said not to but the foreman said to go ahead and run it. Then we ended up scrapping out the parts we were all paid to run instead of throwing out the bad blanks.
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Back around 2002 I worked for a family owned local company who produced Nitrous Oxide, ("Laughing Gas") anesthetic systems for the dental industry. These units fell into production requirements set by the Food & Drug Administration. Their standards can be just as tight as the aerospace industry in regards to quality control. Anyway, we had several of these units that the quality control inspector flagged as bad because they did not flow the proper amount of gas at different settings. The plant manager overrode him and shipped the units anyway. The inspector contacted the FDA and told them exactly what he had found, and what the plant manager did as a result. He was honest about what he did, and was fired immediately as a result.
This ended up in a full scale criminal investigation that included a 6 digit law suit by the inspector against the company in question. The plant manager was fired before it was all over, and the company was put on probation for an extended period of time. They ended up spending tens of thousands on a specialized legal staff to defend them who were based in Washington D.C. It was a real mess. When you produce crap and try and sell it as viable goods, bad things can happen quickly. Especially in today's lawyer infested world. Bill T.
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The last Company I worked for made medical devices for internal use.
Bill is not exaggerating, if anything, he is understating how serious it is to over rule QA.
Look at the first Space Shuttle explosion, people at the O ring factory went to prison for that one.
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Back to the CCI Blaser I stop using in Feb 88 after I got to Germany. I had just arrived there earlier that week and on the first weekend walk 2+ miles to the range outside the kaserne. Since we had just had a new 4" snow fall, I bought some .357 magnum 125 gr JSP CCI Blaser for my Coonan Model B since I didn't feel like chasing my cases in the snow (I reloaded in my team room and later the bachloer quarters). Opened up the new box and placed 5 rds into the magazine. On the first round, round fired but I got fragments in my face (was wearing eye pro). Cleared the gun, found the case which was split and had a 2mm hole just above the case head. Round had hit dead center of my 25m target. Case had flame cut the inside of the chamber at the 9 oclock position. Pulled the bullets and reloaded them into some nickle cases. I sent the gun to Coonan for repair and CCI bought me a new complete upper for me and reimbursed me for the two boxes of ammo. I don't buy Blaser cased ammo anymore. I did see one German reload those alumiumn cases with new berdan primers, he was firing a mint Polish Vis 35 Radom pistol with the early Polish Eagle on it. This was in Bad Tolz, home to the Nazi Junkerschule (SS Officers school) during WWII.
CD