The Down Range Forum
Flying Dragon Productions ( Michael Bane ) => Michael Bane on the Radio => Topic started by: JdePietro on June 07, 2010, 03:58:47 PM
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Michael, Michael, Michael...
At the beginning of your podcast you were all beside yourself because some people think cowboy shooting is a costume party. Five minutes later you start calling out the racegun guys as phonies. I with there was a shaking head smiley because it would indeed be appropriate.
Raceguns most oftenly take the form of 2011's. Cowboy guns are most often times a SA Colt design. 2011's are just as capable as any other semi auto as a self defense piece, maybe even more so than some. I'll beit they tend to hang all sorts a parts on the firearm for specific course use but there is no way on the Gods green earth that I would want to work the opisite side of the muzzle of these guys and their guns.
IMHO SA Colts are one absolete and two not the best choice from that era. The Scholfields and top break S&W could actually be reloaded with some speed. In everday life I think the use of a SA Colt styled pistol as a self defense piece is a poor one, but does my opinion really matter? I don't think so because there are pleanty of people who run SA Colts faster than Scholfields and Top breaks. I just see the two issues you brought up as having an extreme parrallel. You defended one specialty gun and ripped another.
I do aggree that the emphasis aught be on production guns, but I wouldn't say it is because the race guns are unusable in everyday events, but rather because I think the majority of the gun culture can better utilize the techno benefit that will come from a strong production gun competition.
Lastly you have not made mention that the Midwest CMMG 3 gun challenge Heavy Metal Division was won once again by a SAI M1A NM. Take that you FAL loving racegun basher :P
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LOL! Great post! Okay, lemme better define myself...whenever I put "raceguns" — that is, guns designed/modified for specificcompetition and including competition-specific accessories such as compensators/extreme muzzle breaks, optical sights, barricade "wings," etc. — on TV, people race...no, SPRINT!...for the remote control. There is ZERO viewer interest in competition-modified guns; ZERO firearms industry interest in same and pretty much zero interest in "professional" shooters. Heck, most shooters don't particularly care about the open/unlimited categories. As a veteran competitor myself, it sorta puts me in an odd position...I want to promote competition, but I need to do it in a way that keeps me employed.
I shot Limited with an STI Edge .40 S&W and it was the single best out-of-the-box gun I've ever owned...if there was one gun left in the world and it was an Edge, I'd be good to go (yeah, I'd rather have a 9mm or a .45 than a .40, but I'd go with the .40). I'd have to say the same thing about an SA, whether a Ruger or a Colt. Having gone through 2 Gunsite single action self-defense classes, I'd feel pretty comfortable with that as my primary self-defense gun. I TOTALLY agree with you on the superiority of the Model 3 system...I have 2 Uberti 3-1/2 inchers in .44 Russian, and with the right "speedloaders" they'd outperform a swing-out cylinder any day.
So yeppers, I wouldn't want to stand in front of a racegun of any kind, either, and my objections are the same as yours...while they advance technology, they actually harm the sport by making it both less appealing and less accessible to the larger body of shooters...
Michael B
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Wow Mike I had no idea you'd answer my post. :o
Honestly I'm with you on how intersting the race guns are. Cowboy stuff doesn't do it with me either but who am I to question? I think you do a great job with the lineup.
I was only bustin you rocks over beating on one sport after defending a very similar sport is all.
PS. ::) I shot a topbreak after my clubs local Cowboy event. If I could find a costume that would completely conceal my identity from my tactical 3 gun buddies. I'd totally run a topbreak.
Keep doing what you do Mr. Bane
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Oh bah humbug! When the open guys rip through a Steel Challenge course at blazing speed, it gets attention. Whenever I tell people I shoot competitively, they always mention seeing JJ or Max or some of those guys burn through a course on TV.
And fwiw, plenty of open shooters take the time to burn through matches with production guns, single stacks, and even the occasional L-10 national.
While I understand that the average shooter (i.e. someone who plinks a little and probably isn't a serious competitor or SD expert) needs a good out of the box gun, I think it's a mistake to obsess on out of the box guns or insist that they are what every pro should use.
The best shooters throughout history have sought out the state of the art guns for their era and have customized them for their personal use. There really isn't a lot of difference between buying a compact 1911 and putting night sights on it for a carry gun or building a 2011 up from the ground with wings, optics, compensators, and extended basepads for Bianchi or USPSA. In each case, you're simply using the best tool for the job. And I'm having an awfully hard time figuring out how dressing up like movie cowboys and shooting obsolete technology in a temporary ghost town is somehow going to make you a better shooter than the guys at the top of the Bianchi and USPSA ladder.
God knows other athletes either customize their gear or have gear manufactured to their specs. Do you think Tiger Woods' putter is any less tricked out than Max Michel's open blaster?
FWIW, I'm not an open shooter. I'm primarily a single stack and limited shooter. But it irks me to see someone who claims to support the shooting sports run down an entire division and dismiss some of the best shooters in the world as one trick ponies. Automotive sports manage to accommodate everything from top fuel dragsters to dirt track stock cars to 4X4 mud bogs. The success of one branch doesn't depend on the failure of another. Anti-gunners already do a fine job of running down our sport and making it harder to recruit new competitors. We don't need to make their job easier by running each other down.
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BBBean, posted :
"The best shooters throughout history have sought out the state of the art guns for their era "
That is not exactly true. For an example Wild Bill Hickok relied on a pair of Colt "Navy" revolvers well in to the era of Cartridge pistols.
Since you obviously missed MB's point, I will attempt to explain it.
Ordinary folks who work for a living, have bills, and kids, will most likely not be able to afford a race gun.
If they do go to watch a match, they only go once, because unless you are actually shooting most people find the competitions to be boring as hell.
With CAS however, even the spectators can participate in "returning to a bygone era". most any one can afford out of the box guns for this sport and even folks who don't give a sh!t about guns can enjoy the food, and vendors.
Rimfire challenge is another competition that, unlike IDPA or IPSC actually draws NEW shooters, since any one can afford a couple of .22's that will make them competitive out of the box, (although it isn't exactly a "spectator " sport either.).
I will use personal experience as an example, I'm a gun nut, I lust for different guns, I read about them, I even participated in the manufacture of several thousand of them.
T/C Arms used to put on a black powder shoot every year, I went once stayed for 20 minutes and had enough, if it had not been for the coffee I would have nothing good to say about it.
In fact, the boredom I endured permanently soured me on black powder shooting.
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Since you obviously missed MB's point, I will attempt to explain it.
Ordinary folks who work for a living, have bills, and kids, will most likely not be able to afford a race gun.
If they do go to watch a match, they only go once, because unless you are actually shooting most people find the competitions to be boring as hell.
With CAS however, even the spectators can participate in "returning to a bygone era". most any one can afford out of the box guns for this sport and even folks who don't give a sh!t about guns can enjoy the food, and vendors.
Rimfire challenge is another competition that, unlike IDPA or IPSC actually draws NEW shooters, since any one can afford a couple of .22's that will make them competitive out of the box, (although it isn't exactly a "spectator " sport either.).
I will use personal experience as an example, I'm a gun nut, I lust for different guns, I read about them, I even participated in the manufacture of several thousand of them.
T/C Arms used to put on a black powder shoot every year, I went once stayed for 20 minutes and had enough, if it had not been for the coffee I would have nothing good to say about it.
In fact, the boredom I endured permanently soured me on black powder shooting.
Not every sport is for everybody. I love USPSA and Steel Challenge, but IDPA just annoys me and CAS looks silly to my taste. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with those sports or that I'm somehow superior for preferring USPSA. I'd never suggest IDPA was "over" just because it's not my sport of choice. There's a reason Baskin Robbins makes 31 flavors!
As for affordability, lets be honest. They don't give CAS guns away, and the clothes, the travel, the props, etc. all cost $$$. If you are a serious competitor in ANY shooting sport, you're going to spend some money. If you want an inexpensive sport, take up frisbee golf or chess. And since when was "being instantly affordable to a rank beginner with a limited budget" the criterion for evaluating a sport? God knows Michael's favorite ARs and New Gen battle rifles are "over" if affordability is the criteria. How many guys do you see shooting 3 gun or any serious rifle competition with a $500 rifle?
FWIW, I can't tell you the last time I shot a USPSA match that didn't have several new shooters in attendance. A $400 Glock or M&P gives you perfectly good gear to shoot production or Lim-10, and a trigger job and extended mag puts you in the running for Limited. Interestingly, a lot of beginner shooters get the bug and start putting optics and compensators on their production and limited guns to shoot open after a year or two. I guess they didn't get the memo that open is over and they are supposed to leave their guns box stock.
And I'm still struggling with how Michael can rant for three podcasts in a row about how open guns and open shooters are over, and then in the next breath talk about his good friend JJ Recaza or talk about putting optics and compensators on $3000 rifles to make them competitive or better suited for specific purposes.
A race gun is just a gun that's customized for a particular sport, and an open shooter is just a guy who likes to shoot race guns. What's so wrong with that?
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BBBean, First off, I'm not saying your facts are wrong . What I am disagreeing with is your interpretation of them.
I will grant that nearly every shooting competition that happens includes "new Shooters".
However, I will bet you money, (not much, rents coming up ) that every single one of them was brought in by another avid shooter. Those people will be drawn in to at least try competing any way just by their attraction to firearms.
The people that the various competitions have to reach, if they are to become profitable (ala NASCAR ) are the vast majority who have no connection at all with the "gun culture", City dwellers who have been conditioned to assume that "all guns are for is killing, and that is always bad."
Unfortunately, pure "skill based" competition, such as High power Rifle,or IPSC, may bring a rush to the SHOOTER, They are boring as crap to people who just come to watch, ( referring to new comers, not "pro's " )
But, if you add some entertainment value, as with CAS, you attract a far greater number of people who's original focus is NOT the "guns", but maybe the food, or the clothes. In other words, by adding the period clothes and Alias's you increase the "entertainment Value" = profitability for Organizers, it also gets the pro gun message out to a far wider audience, rather than just preaching to the choir like we do here.
I have to agree about CAS guns :( But that in itself is an indication of the fairly rapid growth of the sport. I can remember going to gun stores and not seeing a single SA revolver, or only .22's, and around here any way, my Dad is the only person I new, until the last few years, who owned a lever action rifle that was NOT a 30/30 ,(Win or Marlin)
and I was under the impression that calibers such as 32/20, 44/40, and .45 Colt were not even sold any more, due to lack of interest.
That's a bit different now, and it's entirely due to CAS. (And yes, I to hesitate to dress in the period clothing, but it is like a Renaissance Faire, all in good fun )
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The number of un-modified pistols or revolvers owned by Michael Bane in the last 10 years
A) Zero
B) None of the above.
Pick A
Bane supports the families of a dozen gunsmiths. He probably is the source of several college educations.
Stock firearm and Michael Bane can not be used in the same sentence with out adding LAUGH OUT LOUD
;D ;D
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And you get to play Cowboys & Indians and sometime soon Cowboys & Mooslims & sometime soon Cowboys & Messkins ect.ect.ect. Not to forget our fearless leader If I havent offended you yet don't worry we will get there sooner or later and sometime soon Cowboys & Polita$$holes
Our future looks bright to say the least a target rich enviorment. YMMV w/my spelling
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The number of un-modified pistols or revolvers owned by Michael Bane in the last 10 years
A) Zero
B) None of the above.
Pick A
Bane supports the families of a dozen gunsmiths. He probably is the source of several college educations.
Stock firearm and Michael Bane can not be used in the same sentence with out adding LAUGH OUT LOUD
;D ;D
Magna ported Charter Arms, The work cost more than the gun, especially if you include shipping and transfer fee's,
Then of course there is the notorious Serbu, 12Ga. pocket pistol,
That's just plain ADDICTION right there ;D
And you get to play Cowboys & Indians and sometime soon Cowboys & Mooslims & sometime soon Cowboys & Messkins ect.ect.ect. Not to forget our fearless leader If I havent offended you yet don't worry we will get there sooner or later and sometime soon Cowboys & Polita$$holes
Our future looks bright to say the least a target rich enviorment. YMMV w/my spelling
That's the one I'm expecting.
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Wow Sorry Mr. Bane I didn't know I would garner you such hate.
I think everyone needs to take a hit on the ol' peace pipe.
Every sport has a loyal following and I don't think Michael was calling for the end of USPSA open division.
Relax... 8)
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Wow Sorry Mr. Bane I didn't know I would garner you such hate.
I think everyone needs to take a hit on the ol' peace pipe.
Every sport has a loyal following and I don't think Michael was calling for the end of USPSA open division.
Relax... 8)
Are you really that dense?
MB Never,ever,ever shoots a stock gun. Feel free to kid him about it.
Nothing to do with USPSA.
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I do to own an unmodified gun...an H&R .32 H&R someone gave me to get out of his house...it's too butt ugly to do anything to.
As one of the guys who helped start USPSA (I was present at the semi-legendary meeting at Thee Doll House in Orlando, FL, where the first USPSA bylaws were drawn up...my contribution? "More beer, por favor, and no, we can't afford a table dance"); as a graduate of the first test class of what would become the National Range Officer Institute; as the guy who wrote the "overtaken by events" first set of specs for what would become USPSA Limited Class; as one of Bill Wilson's original IDPA'ers (IDPA#00009); as one of people who helped popularize both the Scholastic Clays Target Program and the Great Outdoor Games for NSSF; as a guy who worked with USA Shooting, helped create the Ruger Rimfire Challenge, blah blah blah...I actually do understand competition, competition-specific guns, etc. I also know a hell of a lot about shooting competitions...including how they self-destruct.
Interestingly enough, they tend to self-destruct the same way (and maybe the same way most sports self-destruct)...they evolve toward their strongest shooters until, in essence, they become demo sports for a limited number of participants. That's where the unlimited classes of the various shooting sports are now...demos for a few amazingly talented individuals. Great for the guys; great for the increasingly fewer people who want to follow in their footsteps. I can tell you from hard cold ratings experience that the larger body of shooters are not interested in the slightest.
Reinvention is necessary for sports to prosper...that's why there's lots of new shooters at USPSA matches with Glocks and plastic holsters. The sport is reinventing itself.
A while back I figured out that just because I like it doesn't mean everyone likes it. I collect custom guns, mostly single action Rugers and 1911s. I think they're endlessly fascinating...I suspect you don't. I could create a 2-gun sport, for example, that with careful course design and equipment specification would require you to have $5000 worth of Hamilton Bowen or Dave Clement Ruger and $5000 worth of Les Baer 1911 if you wanted to do more than that just be a placeholder (think) "The Masters" competition. Such a sport is not going anywhere.
Also, remember that perception is for the most part reality...if you're a Bianchi Cup fanatic, you might look at the barricade "wings" as a clever technological solution to a stated problem...a portion of people might look at the barricade wings and think, "cheaters." The larger body of shooters looks at the barricade wings and shrugs, because it simply doesn't touch their reality of what a firearm is or is used for.
So, let's pretend you're me and you have access to the following facts:
• 85% of the guns sold in an average year are sold for either concealed carry or home self-defense.
• Self-defense training shows pull large ratings
• Your highest rated shows are Knob Creek
• Your lowest rated shows are the traditional competitions
• Your VERY lowest rated shows involve competition-specific "raceguns"
• Your sponsors have no interest in raceguns and are quite vocal about it
• You get lots of hostile emails when you run a competition show
• You have to be aware of your competitors and how they are programming
• Your bosses will not hesitate to cancel your shows or even fire you if your ratings drops
However, you also believe the following (sometimes contradictory) things are also true:
• Competition is an important part of shooting and must have a place on television
• It is in the best interest of the gun culture to crete sports' "heroes"
• The people who pay the freight, the sponsors, have a legitimate right for input into the editorial process
• You are a committed member of the gun culture — not a carpetbagger looking to make a few bucks — and that commitment affects your programming
• You are a competitor yourself
So the game is how do you create programing that on a given day hits a majority the buttons you want to push? Which babies do you choose to throw off the lifeboat?
Strangely enough, making one decision often trips a long line of dominoes that goes someplace else entirely. Example...when I made the decision to toss the racegun baby off the lifeboat, I got to thinking about what the next evolutionary step for defensive handguns mights. As is typical, I bounce stuff off Marshal Halloway first, then the "usual suspects" — a group of firearms industry insiders whose opinions I unconditionally trust and who are unconditionally willing to call B-S on me if they think I'm off the reservation. That's how come, BTW, I'm now thinking about an episode on small red dot optics of the "Doktor" style on self-defense pistols...
And then, of course, I bounce it off you guys and see what the reaction looks like!
Thanks...I think!
Michael B
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Gosh. And we all thought Michale was just a pretty face....err...figuratively anyway.. ;D ;D
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And then, of course, I bounce it off you guys and see what the reaction looks like!
Sure...if the show doesn't work, just blame us.... ::)
Your Friendly Neighborhood Thread Zombie.... ;D