The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: twyacht on June 07, 2010, 07:17:00 PM
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Good bye and good riddance Helen Thomas. Your illustrious career, that you should have ended after Nixon, now comes to fruition in your Anti-Semetic remarks.
Your Lebanese upbringing couldn't keep your liberal mouth shut, and I hope generations from now, your stupid remarks over the decades, your partisan diatribes, and reverence by the MSM, overshadows your true nature.
A liberal hack.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/onmedia/0610/Helen_Thomas_retires.html
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TW, let me see if I understand you... You seem to feel that Helen Thomas is and was a total waste of skin. Is that about it? Is that because she is a racist, bigotted, socialist/liberal, anti-American, pro-Palestinian, Jew hating peice of desicated turkey wattle? Or is it because she is the ugliest, nastiest creature to ooze out of the slime since Golum?
Whatever may be your reasoning, let us rejoice that this vile creature is no longer able to give voice to her acid tongue.
My fear is she will soon die and be buried and that the cemetary will then become a toxic land fill, unuseable for generations.
Darwin was really slow on cleansing this genetic defect.
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Sigh.....You know, some times I get into fights I really don't want to get into. Its not because I like to fight either. I really don't. Its just because I have one basic principle, tell the truth as you see it and never back down. Here's how that works in re Helen Thomas (then we'll get to Israel, though I really don't want to go there, still, tell the truth :P). As far as Thomas, she was an opionated and arrogant woman. She was also getting a bit batty. Still, she was a hell of a journalist back in the day and pioneered a role for women in an "old boys" club. What impressed me most about her was this. She quit UPI when the Mooney's took it over (the owners of the Washington Times and a number of other right wing rags). She had worked for them since the 1950's but said she wouldn't be the mouth piece for a cult. Points to her. As to Israel. God I don't even know where to start.
Let me just say that the beginning would have nothing to do with religion and would be about a people's right to self determination. The Jews? The Palestenians? Lord, they both have a good claim if we leave religion out of it and look at the matter objectively. The Palestenians have never been a particularly religious people. Most of their violence was committed in the name of nationalism, not Islam. It is not unreasonable to acknowledge two truths. One the jews are entitled to a homeland after all they have suffered. Still, it is also true that in a just world, that homeland would have been carved out of Bavaria, as the Germans were to blame and should have been the ones to pay the price. What the hell did the Palestenians ever do to the Jewish people before 1948? I know this post may piss some folks off. That's not the intent. Let's not go there. I am not anti-semetic or anti-Israel. Still, how would you react if you were a Christian (as about 25% are) Palestenian? Lets engage in debate here, not calumny. I acknowlege Israel's right to exist, call it a US ally, and back it's blockade of Gaza. Screw the Turks. Still....... :'(
FQ13 who thinks the world is very seldom a black and white place. We live or die in shades of gray .
Quote by Robert Earl Keene. :-\ If I can't offer any argument that will convince folks, I'll try a country song from the Texas Hill Country. We do the best we can, and as always, sometimes life just sucks. YMMV. ;D
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FQ, F*ck the Palestinian's, they are dirty people who don't deserve what they do have, which is much closer to us than is shown on TV, Those two legged sheep went into those camps against the wishes and advice of the Israeli Govt (to be ) Because their leaders told them if they got out of the way of the Arab Armies they would be allowed to have the farms of the Jews. Didn't work out that way and these leaches have been crying poor me with their hand out ever since because they are to lazy to do anything but bitch and beg.
The land held by Jews prior to Independence, was bought and paid for, very few Palestinians actually "owned" the land they farmed, most were peasant's working for an absentee land lord who still owns that land and has built slums for Arab workers.
Lastly, Israel declared a blockade of Gaza, the same way Germany declared the blockade of England during WWI, and England declared the "Exclusionary Zone" around the Falklands. The "Declaration it's self has legal weight under the excepted "Laws of Land Warfare" (I forget which convention formalized them but it was before WWI )
Entering a declared blockade zone means your vessel can be seized or sunk be the Blockading party, The German's in the Athenia sinking in WWI made a very good case against the need even for a warning to passengers and crew.
The fact that the ships actually were carrying aid for the other belligerent strengthens Israel's hand even further .
They are in fact, playing exactly by the rules.
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FQ, F*ck the Palestinian's, they are dirty people who don't deserve what they do have, which is much closer to us than is shown on TV, Those two legged sheep went into those camps against the wishes and advice of the Israeli Govt (to be ) Because their leaders told them if they got out of the way of the Arab Armies they would be allowed to have the farms of the Jews. Didn't work out that way and these leaches have been crying poor me with their hand out ever since because they are to lazy to do anything but bitch and beg.
The land held by Jews prior to Independence, was bought and paid for, very few Palestinians actually "owned" the land they farmed, most were peasant's working for an absentee land lord who still owns that land and has built slums for Arab workers.
Lastly, Israel declared a blockade of Gaza, the same way Germany declared the blockade of England during WWI, and England declared the "Exclusionary Zone" around the Falklands. The "Declaration it's self has legal weight under the excepted "Laws of Land Warfare" (I forget which convention formalized them but it was before WWI )
Entering a declared blockade zone means your vessel can be seized or sunk be the Blockading party, The German's in the Athenia sinking in WWI made a very good case against the need even for a warning to passengers and crew.
The fact that the ships actually were carrying aid for the other belligerent strengthens Israel's hand even further .
They are in fact, playing exactly by the rules.
One question Tom. What if the indians showed up on your door step demanding soveriegnty, saying you were a second class citizen, and imposing a system of foreign laws? We would both say they had a reasonable case to make. We would also die knowing the last sound we ever heard was "click". I've known and taught a lot of Palestenians. They are a lot like the Northern Irish. Not particularly religious, they just don't want foriegners (as they see the Israelies in their back yard). Its been 800 years of death in Ireland. I'm hoping for a better solution in Israel/Palestine. :-\
FQ13
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I would tell the Indians, who I put in the same category on most counts, to piss off and get a job, those drunken drones own most of Northern Maine due to nothing more than whining and liberal white guilt. They got a heck of a lot better deal than the folks they pushed out. If they had been exterminated, like many Americans wanted, they would not be so annoying now.
Kind of like Saddam Hussein, or Mexico.
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I would tell the Indians, who I put in the same category on most counts, to piss off and get a job, those drunken drones own most of Northern Maine due to nothing more than whining and liberal white guilt. They got a heck of a lot better deal than the folks they pushed out. If they had been exterminated, like many Americans wanted, they would not be so annoying now.
Kind of like Saddam Hussein, or Mexico.
So, you're on the same page as Helen Thomas? If Aushwitz had been more effecient our Mid East policy would be less of a hassell?
FQ13 who will love to see you talk your way out of this one ;D
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No, I think that if the city fathers of Mecca had been a little "more efficient", and beheaded that caravan robbing baby raping POS, "our Mid East policy would be less of a hassle"
(Dude, you drive my spell check nuts ;D )
But now that you mention it, if the earliest Camps had been more effective our political climate might not be so Socialist
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No, I think that if the city fathers of Mecca had been a little "more efficient", and beheaded that caravan robbing baby raping POS, "our Mid East policy would be less of a hassle"
(Dude, you drive my spell check nuts ;D )
Now THAT is funny. I'll tke the slam beacause I'm ROFL. Lets declare an end to this. The only thing I'll say is remember my point about nationalism and the Irish. Every Palestinian could become a Baptist tomorrow, and they'd still throw rocks at the Israelis. :-\
FQ13
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I'm trying to get to bed before sun up, but let me point out to you that you are saying, no matter how you dress one of them up, they will still throw rocks at people who have already shown they can and will use the guns they all have.
Kind of makes my point. ;D
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I'm trying to get to bed before sun up, but let me point out to you that you are saying, no matter how you dress one of them up, they will still throw rocks at people who have already shown they can and will use the guns they all have.
Kind of makes my point. ;D
Israelis have the guns. The government gives them to settlers. The Palestinians can't legally own them. To me, the moral argument ends right there. So yeah, I'd throw a rock, just until I hurt you badly enough to take that brand new Galil or Uzi. ;)
FQ13 who will say again that I'm just trying to be objective and if I piss off the "End Times" folks, sorry, not my intention, but I make moral calls as I see them, I don't filter it though the book of Revelations.
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My morality is , "whats good for me and mine is good" that includes a strong, aggressive Israel, not a bunch of whiners living in the past with their hand out. If every Muslim in Asia dropped dead tomorrow I would not really care.
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I'm trying to be objective here ;D but first jus a couple of thoughts: palestine was the name given to Israel by the romans when they invaded. this was burn to the jews because rome named the country after Israel's greatest enemy the philistines. They simply got their land back 2,000 years later.
Here's a few questions:
1. When was the country of "Palestine" founded and by whom?
2. What were its borders?
3. What was its capital?
4. What were its major cities?
5. Name at least on "palestinian leader" before Arafat?
6. What was the language of the "Country of Palestine"?
7. What was the most prevalent religion of the "ancient country of palestine"?
8. What was the name of its currency?
9. Choose any day in history and tell what was the approximate exchange rate of the "Palestinian" monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, or GB pound on that day
10. Since there is no country of palestine today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?
11. Why did the palestinians never try to become independent until after the devastating defeat of invading arab states in the 1967 six day war?
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I'm trying to be objective here ;D but first jus a couple of thoughts: palestine was the name given to Israel by the romans when they invaded. this was burn to the jews because rome named the country after Israel's greatest enemy the philistines. They simply got their land back 2,000 years later.
Here's a few questions:
1. When was the country of "Palestine" founded and by whom?
2. What were its borders?
3. What was its capital?
4. What were its major cities?
5. Name at least on "palestinian leader" before Arafat?
6. What was the language of the "Country of Palestine"?
7. What was the most prevalent religion of the "ancient country of palestine"?
8. What was the name of its currency?
9. Choose any day in history and tell what was the approximate exchange rate of the "Palestinian" monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, or GB pound on that day
10. Since there is no country of palestine today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?
11. Why did the palestinians never try to become independent until after the devastating defeat of invading arab states in the 1967 six day war?
All fair questions, but are any of them relevant? Why should a Palestinian have to justify soverienty over the country they grew up in? Its like the Mexicans claiming the South West as "Azatlan" if you want to give the objective view. I don't feel I have to tell the Mexicans to KMA with historical examples. Thing is, folks tend to look at this conflict through religious or Cold War lenses. Neither set of lenses are particularly good at letting you see the actual people. I have no particularlly wise answer. I just think the Germans got off lightly, the Palestinians got screwed, and the Israeli's are treading dangerously close to what the SA was doing in 1934. None of this makes me happy. It just sucks all the way around.
FQ13 Who desperately wants energy independence so we can say to hell with all these people. The day we are energy independent? Recall every ambassador from the Middle East, cease all foriegn aid, close the military bases and stop honoring their passports. Isarael, Saudi Arabia and Jordan included. Its been nice to know you, but your services are no longer required and you're a lot more trouble than you're worth. So long and thanks for the fish. ;D
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Okay, I've got to throw in my two-cents.
FQ, you claim to be an academician, a researcher, and a Christian, yet you manage to get so many things so completely wrong so often--both from a political perspective and also from a Biblical perspective.
First, there is no book of Revelations appearing anywhere in any of the commonly accepted Biblical translations. Technically, in the majority of translations, it is known as The Book of the Revelation of John. It is also known by the shorter title as the Book of Revelation.
So, let's acknowledge you are not a Biblical scholar...
Next, insofar as the rights of Palestine and Israel to co-exist are concerned, it is accurately summed up in the following thoughts: If the Palestinians were to put down their weapons today, the Mid-East would be peaceful tomorrow; If the Israelis were to abandon their weapons today, there would be no Israel tomorrow.
So, let's also stipulate that you are no Mid-East scholar.
And, given that you repeatedly espouse left-wing economic theories that have been repeatedly proven to be unworkable, I think we can stipulate you are no economist, either. So, FQ, what the heck kind of scholar are you?
Humbly submitted by Crusader, who is seeking nothing more than illucidation.
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FQ wrote:
"One question Tom. What if the Indians showed up on your door step demanding sovereignty, saying you were a second class citizen, and imposing a system of foreign laws?"
I would say come back armed and try and take it. Just like my great grandfather did to your great-grandfather or like your great great grandfather did to his fellow Native Americans.
At least the Israel understands that concept. They have it and they are not giving it back without a fight.
Did the Arabs that lived in the region get screwed? Yes. Did they try and take it back by force and fail? Yes, on several occasions.
The Palestinian leadership has stabbed every nation in the region in the back over time. They got kicked out of Jordan for plotting to over throw the government. They caused civil war in Lebanon that fragmented the country and caused it to be invaded by both Syria and Israel multiple times. They backed Iraq in 1992 and lost all the jobs in Kuwait, UAE and Saudi for its nationals. Egypt keeps them bottled up in the Sinai.
The PLO/PLA/Hamas/Fatah fight a proxy war for Iran and Syria to fund their political parties, ensuring a blockade that strangles any attempt at economic growth. Does Iran or Syria give the Palestinians protection by allowing them to become citizens? NO way!
Having been in that part of the world I will say a Palestinian in Israel has more rights under the law than a Jew in Iraq or Syria.
Let’s not even start on the peace loving folks of Ireland and their problems.
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So, FQ, what the heck kind of scholar are you?
Poly Sci from my recollection....from Georgetown!
Seems he's qualified to tend bar in most states!
;D
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from CR,
Next, insofar as the rights of Palestine and Israel to co-exist are concerned, it is accurately summed up in the following thoughts: If the Palestinians were to put down their weapons today, the Mid-East would be peaceful tomorrow; If the Israelis were to abandon their weapons today, there would be no Israel tomorrow.
That, in a nut shell, even though FQ, and TomB need to do what most of us do at 3:30+ A.M., (WHICH IS SLEEP & NOT THREAD DRIFT!!) ::)
Either way, that CR, is a head shot, 10 Ring Bullseye, and spot on.
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/helen_thomas.jpg)
This OP was about a TROLL going back under the bridge. ;D
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from CR,
Next, insofar as the rights of Palestine and Israel to co-exist are concerned, it is accurately summed up in the following thoughts: If the Palestinians were to put down their weapons today, the Mid-East would be peaceful tomorrow; If the Israelis were to abandon their weapons today, there would be no Israel tomorrow.
That, in a nut shell, even though FQ, and TomB need to do what most of us do at 3:30+ A.M., (WHICH IS SLEEP & NOT THREAD DRIFT!!) ::)
Either way, that CR, is a head shot, 10 Ring Bullseye, and spot on.
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/helen_thomas.jpg)
This OP was about a TROLL going back under the bridge. ;D
Because thwe Billy Goat had High Hopes? ;D ;D ;D
FQ13 who advises all board members to take any of my posts made after midnight with a grain of salt, but you really didn't need my advice, did you? :-[ ;D
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(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/helen_thomas.jpg)
Attractive woman.
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On thread, I am glad shes gone, but at several points in her life, asked the questions, every questioner was hoping would not come up. Her blab on Israel is either senile, or what she wanted to say all her life, good riddance.
On to Israel, I support Israel, want to continue our alliance, as they give us intel that is more real than any in the region, and would Fight for us, as little as they are, at the drop of a hat, as long as they know, We ( the U.S ) will back them. Now they know that politics would keep that from happening. You can bet the CIA is letting them know under the table that this too shall pass, and the Mossad back to us as well, with reserve. I also support the biblical angle, it was theirs all along.
But, we have to think about world development for the past 300 + yrs, 300 yrs ago, there were some defined areas, that the people of that region claimed, right or wrong, and usually along rivers, streams and oceans, because water was the 1 thing, you absolutely needed above all else. As people populated these areas, the populace grew enough to protect your area or region, that's when fences or border guards emerge, the Romans of course were 1 of the hungriest, and captured many lands, then Europe got this early, as did Britain, but the Scott's and the Irish had a different idea,but were beaten, the middle East actually got this earlier, but too much changing of hands and not enough force once the Moors had there fill. Here in America, so much land and so few people, settlers did not settle in a place they saw trouble, Just 1st where they landed, and then the adventurous moved on, but again usually along rivers and streams. There they met Indigenous people and either lived with them, were killed, or killed them. But both groups were small in number, and the land so unsettled, it was easy to live in relative peace, until many nomadic Indigenous people returned from their hunting grounds and found HOUSES, permanent structures, that they never thought of. Meanwhile Britain is CONQUERING lands everywhere, as the old saying go's, once the British flag, never saw night time. This is a natural path of development, but as the old saying go's, and remember this.
" These woods belong to those that can hold them "
The early settlers did not come to conquer but escape, the later settlers, had more intel, and came to prosper, the Brits, meaning the King, tried to capitalize on both, We decided, not without a fight. Israel is trying to hold their woods, God bless them, at this time with the worst president of all time in the other quarters pocket.
Still today there is fighting for land, territory, etc.. as Israel is now, it will come down to a fight eventually with one side being really hurt, hurt enough to say uncle for real. Those people lead such a hard life, in such a hard environment, that most of us, who are not coming out of the sand box can understand, and yet, when things are going smooth, they actually lead happy lives
Like my childhood, you don't know your poor, underfed, under privileged, until somebody pointed it out. I thought everybody was hot and muggy, and ate PBJ sandwiches, I did not feel that way.
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Some good posts here, even if they are a little off topic, (The old bat did get canned for anti Jewish remarks ) I'll have to take them in order.
I'm trying to be objective here ;D but first jus a couple of thoughts: palestine was the name given to Israel by the romans when they invaded. this was burn to the jews because rome named the country after Israel's greatest enemy the philistines. They simply got their land back 2,000 years later.
Here's a few questions:
1. When was the country of "Palestine" founded and by whom?
Early 1990's by HAMAS forcing an election, HAMAS was then a very loose organization that really had no one leader, that was how it survived it's birth with the 1st Intifada.
2. What were its borders?
The "Occupied Territories" did in fact have well defined borders, The former border of the land Israel held, and the smaller UN negotiated modern border.
3. What was its capital?
Rammalla I think,
4. What were its major cities?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_National_Authority
5. Name at least on "palestinian leader" before Arafat?
The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, he was a Hussien if I recall. He actually started most of todays problems in the middle east in order to increase his own power and wealth. He also supported Hitler.
6. What was the language of the "Country of Palestine"?
7. What was the most prevalent religion of the "ancient country of palestine"?
8. What was the name of its currency?
They accept, and always have, any and all currencies and or trade goods, legal or not.
9. Choose any day in history and tell what was the approximate exchange rate of the "Palestinian" monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, or GB pound on that day
See above, their currency IS the $ the pound sterling, and the German Mark
10. Since there is no country of palestine today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?
Palastine was a province of the old Ottoman Empire. When the Empire Collapsed after WW I it was reduced to it's core of modern day Turkey, while the territories, from the Suez canal to Iran was granted to England under a League of Nations Mandate. on independence the Province of Palastine was split into "The Hashemite Kingdom of Trans Jordan" and the rest of the province which became Israel.
11. Why did the palestinians never try to become independent until after the devastating defeat of invading arab states in the 1967 six day war?
The peasants haven't got any initiative, they have been crapped on under the guise of Islam for so long they are no better than real sheep.
All fair questions, but are any of them relevant? Why should a Palestinian have to justify soverienty over the country they grew up in? Its like the Mexicans claiming the South West as "Azatlan" if you want to give the objective view. I don't feel I have to tell the Mexicans to KMA with historical examples. Thing is, folks tend to look at this conflict through religious or Cold War lenses. Neither set of lenses are particularly good at letting you see the actual people. I have no particularlly wise answer. I just think the Germans got off lightly, the Palestinians got screwed, and the Israeli's are treading dangerously close to what the SA was doing in 1934. None of this makes me happy. It just sucks all the way around.
FQ13 Who desperately wants energy independence so we can say to hell with all these people. The day we are energy independent? Recall every ambassador from the Middle East, cease all foriegn aid, close the military bases and stop honoring their passports. Isarael, Saudi Arabia and Jordan included. Its been nice to know you, but your services are no longer required and you're a lot more trouble than you're worth. So long and thanks for the fish. ;D
FQ, that is that academic stupidity again, "the actual people" do not enter into international affairs, unless they are being used for propaganda.
"the actual people" do not set Govt. policies, or command Armies, this is done by politicians and their pets in the media, like the anti semite Socialist bat this thread is about.
While they may really be human they sure ain't "the actual people".
CR ROFL !
Ratcatcher, that is the most coherent synopsis I've ever heard on the subject . ;D
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(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/helen_thomas.jpg)
This OP was about a TROLL going back under the bridge. ;D
...and then we nuke the bridge from orbit....it's the only way to be sure....
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Quote from tombogan03884: "on independence the Province of Palastine was split into "The Hashemite Kingdom of Trans Jordan" and the rest of the province which became Israel."
Thanky you Tom this is exactly what I was looking for! The "Palestinians" are Jordanians. The two state solution happened in 1948. Look at it this way: the Brits had a geographical area with a population of Arabs and Jews (Thats right they didn't truck them all in from Germany and Russia) they simply made a country for each. Thus the palestinians that are in Israel that chose not to go to Jordan can assimilate or they can move into the reservation of gaza their choice.
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Read any of Leon Uris's books
about Israel , Especially "Exodus" which goes into great detail about the roots of the modern dispute.
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Attractive woman.
Now that's a definite cry for help. Don't worry buddy, we'll help you find a 12 step program to get you off the junk. ;D
Swoop
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Sigh.....You know, some times I get into fights I really don't want to get into. Its not because I like to fight either. I really don't. Its just because I have one basic principle, tell the truth as you see it and never back down.
But, what if your vision is blurred?
Not picking on you, FQ, just asking a question about the idea that just because a person sees something as the truth, doesn't make it true, it just makes it an opinion that may be backed by facts......IMHO.
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But, what if your vision is blurred?
Not picking on you, FQ, just asking a question about the idea that just because a person sees something as the truth, doesn't make it true, it just makes it an opinion that may be backed by facts......IMHO.
Thats what this board is for Peg. We make our case, argue it out and then decide who's right. I've changed my mind more than once because of what I learned here. I doubt I'm alone.
FQ13
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Thats what this board is for Peg. We make our case, argue it out and then decide who's right. I've changed my mind more than once because of what I learned here. I doubt I'm alone.
FQ13
I agree, FQ.....
I was just throwing out a question that was more rhetorical than anything else (not a cheap shot at you, just using your statement for a kick-off tee).......because by the third page of the thread, my eyes were beginning to bleed.....from more ways than one. ;D ;D
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Thats what this board is for Peg. We make our case, argue it out and then decide who's right. I've changed my mind more than once because of what I learned here. I doubt I'm alone.
FQ13
You're our work in progress FQ!
Someday, you'll decide to come to terms with what you were meant to be! For goodness sake, the board would be a lot less interesting if you stopped giving us ammunition! ;D