The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: Solus on June 09, 2010, 01:57:59 PM
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I have a work acquaintance who is Muslim. He "escaped" from Lebanon, is a hard worker, married an American woman, is a bit henpecked, has one child and has become an American citizen. I drove to Canada with him to meet his parents and some other relatives. Decent folks. He was working to be able to afford to help other relations in Lebanon immigrate to the US. He was a good American citizen but I do not know how deep his Muslim beliefs are. At dinner at his house, he pointed out that the beef sausage they served was every bit as tasteful as pork sausage...was not sure if it was a sales pitch to get me to switch or a sort of appology for not serving what I might prefer. He had deep feelings of appreciation and gratitude towards America for giving him a chance to live here. I have no problem with Muslim legal immigrants who are willing to assimilate and forsake some major teachings of their religion.
I received this in an email. Do not know the author.
Barack OBAMA, during his Cairo speech, said: "I know, too, that Islam has always been a part of America 's story."
AN AMERICAN CITIZEN'S RESPONSE:
Dear Mr. Obama:
Were those Muslims that were in America when the Pilgrims first landed? Funny, I thought they were Native American Indians.
Were those Muslims that celebrated the first Thanksgiving day? Sorry again, those were Pilgrims and Native American Indians.
Can you show me one Muslim signature on the United States Constitution?
Declaration of Independence
Bill of Rights?
Didn't think so.
Did Muslims fight for this country's freedom from England ? No.
Did Muslims fight during the Civil War to free the slaves in America ? No, they did not. In fact, Muslims to this day are still the largest traffickers in human slavery. Your own half brother, a devout Muslim, still advocates slavery himself, even though Muslims of Arabic descent refer to black Muslims as "pug nosed slaves." Says a lot of what the Muslim world really thinks of your family's "rich Islamic heritage," doesn't it Mr. Obama?
Where were Muslims during the Civil Rights era of this country? Not present.
There are no pictures or media accounts of Muslims walking side by side with Martin Luther King, Jr. or helping to advance the cause of Civil Rights.
Where were Muslims during this country's Woman's Suffrage era? Again, not present. In fact, devout Muslims demand that women are subservient to men in the Islamic culture. So much so, that often they are beaten for not wearing the 'hajib' or for talking to a man who is not a direct family member or their husband. Yep, the Muslims are all for women's rights, aren't they?
Where were Muslims during World War II? They were aligned with Adolf Hitler. The Muslim grand mufti himself met with Adolf Hitler, reviewed the troops and accepted support from the Nazi's in killing Jews.
Finally, Mr. Obama, where were Muslims on Sept. 11th, 2001? If they weren't flying planes into the World Trade Center , the Pentagon or a field in Pennsylvania killing nearly 3,000 people on our own soil, they were rejoicing in the Middle East . No one can dispute the pictures shown from all parts of the Muslim world celebrating on CNN, Fox News, MSNBC and other cable news networks that day. Strangely, the very "moderate" Muslims who's asses you bent over backwards to kiss in Cairo , Egypt on June 4th were stone cold silent post 9-11. To many Americans, their silence has meant approval for the acts of that day.
And THAT, Mr. Obama, is the "rich heritage" Muslims have here in America .
Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot to mention the Barbary Pirates. They were Muslim.
And now we can add November 5, 2009 - the slaughter of American soldiers at Fort Hood by a Muslim major who is a doctor and a psychiatrist who was supposed to be counseling soldiers returning from battle in Iraq and Afghanistan .
That, Mr. Obama is the "Muslim heritage" in America .
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I think that the statements made in that letter are a gross generalization of the Muslim communities. Yes there may not have been a great number of them here in our early history, or at least not mentioned but to say that none of them were a part of the later (1940s+ probably earlier) history is over simplifying it. Just as you mentioned there is a large Muslim population in this country, and others, that have become productive memebrs of that country and are deeply hurt by all of the sterotyping such as this letter. The whole "one bad apple" analogy. We brought a good portion of this current wave of terrorist activity on ourselves by alienating and abandoning an entire generation of Middle Eastern people and covernments, both overtly and by apathy.
What "major teachings of thier religion" do you wsh them to forsake? The problem with all "organized religions" is that thier cornerstone documents can be inturpreted in different ways. The Koran and Bible both say, to the effect, "Thou shalt not kill" but how many wars have been started in the name of religion by BOTH sides? Most Muslims I have been friends or worked with just want to be treated fairly and left alone, just like everybody else.
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I think that the statements made in that letter are a gross generalization of the Muslim communities. Yes there may not have been a great number of them here in our early history, or at least not mentioned but to say that none of them were a part of the later (1940s+ probably earlier) history is over simplifying it. Just as you mentioned there is a large Muslim population in this country, and others, that have become productive memebrs of that country and are deeply hurt by all of the sterotyping such as this letter. The whole "one bad apple" analogy. We brought a good portion of this current wave of terrorist activity on ourselves by alienating and abandoning an entire generation of Middle Eastern people and covernments, both overtly and by apathy.
What "major teachings of thier religion" do you wsh them to forsake? The problem with all "organized religions" is that thier cornerstone documents can be inturpreted in different ways. The Koran and Bible both say, to the effect, "Thou shalt not kill" but how many wars have been started in the name of religion by BOTH sides? Most Muslims I have been friends or worked with just want to be treated fairly and left alone, just like everybody else.
Damn man! I thought I was going to have to write that and be the whipping boy. Thanks! I'll leave you to it. ;D I will say that we brought Islam to America in 1620 along with the first slaves. As far as immigrants, it was the mid to late 19th century when Syrians, Bosnians, Lebanese, Turks and Phillipinos wanted to come. Not a fan of Islam, but I know lots of solid muslims and lots f Christian assholes, so I don't judge.
FQ13
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America has had a long history with Muslims....remember the Barbary Pirates and "the shores of Tripoli".....
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Cairo....
Not "picking a nit" mind you, just confused the heck out of me!
;)
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America has had a long history with Muslims....remember the Barbary Pirates and "the shores of Tripoli".....
That's true, but also remember that it was a nation-state issue, just as the current evolution is an organized group but not ALL people of that religion. Again, that is some of the issue we as Americans have. We, collectively, do not consider religion and nationality, or ideaology in this case, seperately. "ALL Muslims/Afghans/Iranians/Irish Protestants are terrorists" instead of "This group of people (no matter where they are from or religion) are terrorists." Are we so arrogant (paranoid?) as a nation that everyone that isn't our religion MUST be out to get us?
Damn man! I thought I was going to have to write that and be the whipping boy. Thanks! I'll leave you to it. ;D
I try to be as "open minded" as possible. I've been doing Anti/Counter-Terrorism since 1996 and learning as much as I can about terrorist activity and idealogy since in High School. Some of it is based on religion but usually a distorted view of it.
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I think that the statements made in that letter are a gross generalization of the Muslim communities. Yes there may not have been a great number of them here in our early history, or at least not mentioned but to say that none of them were a part of the later (1940s+ probably earlier) history is over simplifying it. Just as you mentioned there is a large Muslim population in this country, and others, that have become productive memebrs of that country and are deeply hurt by all of the sterotyping such as this letter. The whole "one bad apple" analogy. We brought a good portion of this current wave of terrorist activity on ourselves by alienating and abandoning an entire generation of Middle Eastern people and covernments, both overtly and by apathy.
What "major teachings of thier religion" do you wsh them to forsake? The problem with all "organized religions" is that thier cornerstone documents can be inturpreted in different ways. The Koran and Bible both say, to the effect, "Thou shalt not kill" but how many wars have been started in the name of religion by BOTH sides? Most Muslims I have been friends or worked with just want to be treated fairly and left alone, just like everybody else.
The Major Teachings I refer to are that as an Infidel you have 3 choices.
1. Convert to Islam
2. Submit and become slaves
3. We kill you.
I think a more Live and Let Live attitude makes for better citizens and neighbors.
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The Major Teachings I refer to are that as an Infidel you have 3 choices.
1. Convert to Islam
2. Submit and become slaves
3. We kill you.
I think a more Live and Let Live attitude makes for better citizens and neighbors.
I agree with that and so do a majority of true Muslims, not the "extremists"
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I will write my post as I'm reading yours, so I'm starting With JNevis,
J, the things posted in the letter are exactly correct, they don't mention it on History Channel or in schools but when Montgomery thrashed Rommel at El Alimein, the citizens of Cairo had to take down all the Nazi flags they had put up to welcome the Germans.
The ONLY contribution that Muslims have made to America is to inspire the rebirth of the US Navy and it's Corp of Marines.
There have been several noted Lebanese in American culture, Sirhan Sirhan was a Palestinian, but Casey Kassem, and Helen Thomas come to mind. It is important to remember that to Muslims, Beirut was L.A., Vegas, and NY combined, that was where the rich went to drink fornicate, eat ham sandwiches and perform other acts of debauchery Lebanese have always been noted for their lack of piety if it interfered with trade.
The tenets of Islam, and the stated intent of America are totally opposite to one another you can not be a good member of both groups.
And to further disprove your concerns, FQ agrees with you, I think my case is made ;D
From JNevis 2nd post :
That's true, but also remember that it was a nation-state issue, just as the current evolution is an organized group but not ALL people of that religion.
True enough as far as it goes, but like FQ the other night, you fail to take into account that Neither side
gives a crap about the opinions of "ALL people of that religion." We don't care because we have no reason to, their own leaders don't care what the other cattle think either. The only opinions that matter are the people making the decisions. While it may not be fair or accurate to use stereotypes to evaluate individuals, they can be used to predict trends in nations, as with the French.
As I read I realize that The whole thread is just countering J's posts, I will close pointing out that in the case of Iran we have been "Reaching out" trying to "engage moderate elements", to establish "Meaningful dialog" since 1980.
Isn't your ass sore YET ? Mine started hurting in Oct 82. when the Unit I had served with got blown into red paste in their sleep.
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Cairo....
Not "picking a nit" mind you, just confused the heck out of me!
;)
Wasn't that the KARO speech--a little thick, really sweet (if you're a muslim), and not at all good for you (if you're not)?
The essential elements of the mohammadanist lifestyle (it is more than a religion or a cult) requires adherants to convert infidels by the sword, enslave them, or put them to death. The Quran requires the elimination of Jews by the faithful. These requirements are not part of the radical practice of mohammadanists, but are echoed in mainstream mosques. Even moderates are taught to kill the infidel. It is part of the faith.
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There are actually four options for infidels in Muslim lands with the fourth being to pay the the government a tax for practicing a non Muslim faith. While this tax has not been officially collected by many governments it is unofficially collected by local extremist groups, this is especially the case in Egypt. >:(
Also the email that this was taken from is ill informed as Muslims were involved quite heavily in the civil rights movement, they just were not the ones who felt obliged to nicely ask pretty please to .gov and whites to be given their basic civil/human rights.
Unfortunately the immigration policies of the US, and for that matter most Western countries have allowed a subculture of radicalization to develop within their immigrant Muslim populations. This has resulted from :
1) poor understanding of cultural and political landscape of original country i.e Castro did not invent the practice of sending deviants or extremists to the US/W. Europe so they would be some one else's problem. Nor was he anywhere as effective as some of our "close allies" in the Middle East region
2) allowing Saudi Arabia to fund vehemently rabid anti Western mosques in USA/W. Europe This resulted in these mosques offering more services to their members than mosques that were moderate or even liberal. Their members were willing to endure Wahabi BS in order to enjoy the side benefits. Unfortunately this is where a certain un indicted co-conspirator that aided the 9-11 terrorists during their stays in the US was funded( a group that might rhyme with fair, lair, mare,etc.) Also this helped form networks of loosely connected extremists that had a sugar daddy to support them in their endeavors. And yes it is a minority of Muslim Americans that have extremist tendencies. Probably somewhere around 10%.
3) utter incompetence of federal agencies leadership structure in understanding threats that Hollywood had not ingrained in them
4) public and private pension/ social services system that was modeled on 19th century demographic realities that totally ignored population trends that became easily identifiable starting in the 1920's. Demand for new immigrants not based on economic need, but based on government needs to try to desperately maintain younger cohort numbers.
5) Lack of basic knowledge among American intelligentsia of any non European history or culture, even while it was embracing multiculturalism. Which it usually interpreted as promoting African studies departments in universities i.e. it was only a symptom of "white guilt". This has also resulted in the dismal foreign language situation in the US where we teach foreign languages to students in public schools that they already are likely to use at home or will use on vacation i.e ( German up until the 1980's which was then replaced by Spanish. Spanish will still be taught to most kids until there are three other waves of immigrants that speak other languages and they will slowly move to teach the first of these waves' native tongue.
6) Shift of workplace dynamic from large private employers to large government employers has transformed how immigrant groups become incorporated into society, i.e slowed the melting pot at least in encouraging ties between various groups