The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: steel4u on June 14, 2010, 11:01:32 PM
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Until recently, the usefulness of an AR pistol was questionable to me. What changed my mind was the better understanding of how they are effectively fired...Namely, by cheeking the buffer tube, using sling tension, or both... Trying these methods (with a rifle using a collapsed stock), I was amazed how steady you could be with one of these techniques and never have the gun touch your shoulder. Then on one of Michael's podcasts a few months back he gave me a reasonable reason to justify pulling the trigger on the purchase. He made a great point on how they are Joe Citizen's PDW or in my eyes, the ultimate bug out pistol. So after checking out a few different types of AR pistols at a local shop, I was officially bit by the bug and was on the hunt for a 7.5" model.
Spikes has built me a gun in the past and I'm incredibly confident in their work so when I read the description of the Concussion upper, I knew I was getting another spikes. It had all the features I was looking for in a well build upper and they customized the lower to my specifications.
Concussion Upper Specs (http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=63_64&products_id=212)
After I picked up my Pistol from my FFL, I threw on a set of front and rear MBUSes, a Bushnell Holosight, a Magpul MS2 sling, a BAD lever, and headed to the range.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa253/ruger4u/IMG_6388.jpg)
The Holo sight was previously zeroed on an AR so it only took a few adjustment to get the groups on paper at 100 yards and I was blown away. The first three shot group , fired with XM193, was about 1.5" which is about as good as I can shoot with a zero magnification optic. Then, while fine tuning the zero, I had a group right at an inch. I was seriously impressed and am planing a range session with a magnified optic soon.
Once zeroed I tried some drills on an 8 inch plate at 100 yards. I had no problem coming up from low ready and putting a quick shot on the plate, then a double, then a triple. As I got used to the gun I was just amazed how well it performed. I then started pushing the distance and had no trouble ringing the 12 inch plates at 200 yards, than 300 yards. This thing is bad as$! Tried punching out to 500 yards but had difficulty calling my shots. I've since worked out the dope for the little 55 grain bullet at 2450fps and will be ready for the next visit.
Shooting the pistol is quite an attention getter at the range, but thanks to modern blast-directing comps and brakes (like the DPMS Levang and the Troy Claymore), the sound and concussion from the gun is directed down range. I had a shooter one bench away who didn't seem to mind at all when I shot. For the shooter, its just pure adrenaline. With .223 reloads, there was very little if any flash, but the XM193 would generate some wicked muzzle flashes every 4th or 5th shot which would be blinding a night. For me however, it just made the plinking session that much more exhilarating.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa253/ruger4u/Picture11_2.png)
In 150 rounds I experienced no malfunctions of any kind and the gun ran incredibly smooth. Then when I broke it down for cleaning, I was shocked how spotless the action was (we'll see how it does on a more extended range session).
Overall I'm very happy with the purchase and look forward to seeing what the Spikes Concussion Pistol is capable of. One of these days I'll run some match ammo through it in this set up to see what kind of groups I'll get.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa253/ruger4u/IMG_1360.jpg)
I made a quick video when testing muzzle devises comparing the Levang and Claymore. It gives you a sense for what the recoil impulse and controllability is like with these interesting weapons. With a sling its even better...
If you can't own an SBR in your state or just don't want to deal with the paperwork give the AR pistol a closer look. Its my new favorite plinking gun and may come in handy in a SHTF situation down the road...
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Now that looks like a fun gun to shoot. I think the idea of a bug out gun is good. Compact and easily stow-able with plenty of spare ammo in a bag, but with very good short/mid range accuracy.
Cool report and video. Thanks for sharing.
Peg
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That looks like a lot of fun! ;D I've a lower purchased as a pistol so I can build it up. Thanks for the suggestions on the comps! ;)
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Glad you guys enjoyed it.
Now I just have to find the right defense round for a 7.5" barrel...and I'm not sure which way to go.
When dealing with a short barrel 5.56 weapon it appears there are two schools of though on this.
1. Use a light fast bullet to get as much velocity out of the short barrel a possible.(53gr DPX)
2. Since your never going to get anywhere near rifle length barrel velocity, use the heaviest bullet you can shoot (75gr TAPS).
Of course both schools agree that the bullet must be able to expand at lower velocities but I'll have to do some testing to see how different brands perform.
These are the velocities you can expect with a 7.5" barrel:
55gr XM193 2450fps
75gr TAP 2100fps
Any suggestions on good defensive loads for a short barrel?
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Nice!
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Wow! That looks like a lot of fun. Talk about clearing a room...
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Did you change optics as well? Looks like an aimpoint with the Claymore.
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that thing would be awesome to shoot at night! ;D Not only would you hit the bad guy, but take his night vision away too.
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Way cool, thanks for the report and the video!!
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Thanks for the great comments!
Did you change optics as well? Looks like an aimpoint with the Claymore.
Yea, I put an Aimpoint on for its amazing battery life compared to the Holosight. I love the Holosight and its 1 moa center dot, but for any serious social purpose I would use the Aimpoint. I'm also considering getting a magnifier on a Larue mount to increase the effective range.
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Glad you guys enjoyed it.
Now I just have to find the right defense round for a 7.5" barrel...and I'm not sure which way to go.
When dealing with a short barrel 5.56 weapon it appears there are two schools of though on this.
1. Use a light fast bullet to get as much velocity out of the short barrel a possible.(53gr DPX)
2. Since your never going to get anywhere near rifle length barrel velocity, use the heaviest bullet you can shoot (75gr TAPS).
Of course both schools agree that the bullet must be able to expand at lower velocities but I'll have to do some testing to see how different brands perform.
These are the velocities you can expect with a 7.5" barrel:
55gr XM193 2450fps
75gr TAP 2100fps
Any suggestions on good defensive loads for a short barrel?
Of the two you listed I like the 55gr, but if it could be found I think I would like a 40gr even better. Horndy was making a TAP round but I'm not sure they still are now. Most 5.56 bullets don't expand they disintegrate.
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Good report. What is the overall length of the 7.5" barreled AR pistol?
I haven't been a fan of the AR pistols because of 3 reasons...no stock to steady the rifle, loss of velocity and muzzle blast. You've addressed #1 and #3. #2 you can't get around, but with better bullets maybe lessen the issues. That said, if the compactness is significantly better, it might be worth consideration.
Here's the reason I ask...I never used to be a fan of bullpups because of all the commonly held beliefs about them...crappy trigger pull, slow mag changes, difficult to clear a malf, left-hand unfriendly. That said, I am a curious person by nature and bought an MSAR AUG-clone.
While there is some truth in the "truths", many of the disadvantages are overblown. In fact, I've really come to like the AUG because of one fact...it is very compact and handy. I get a 16" barreled rifle in a package that is shorter than a 10" SBR AR.
Here's a picture comparing several 16" barreled rfles.
(http://i35.tinypic.com/11jnl2t.jpg)
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For compactness, the AUG is a great weapon. My pistol comes in at 24" but of course you have the issue of velocity loss that the bullpup overcomes.
Unfortunately with a 7.5" barrel its almost impossible to reach fragmentation velocities with standard military ammo. The only real options for frag are with varmint bullets and those have shallow penetration and not recommended so everyone tends to point to expanding hollowpoints or softpoints.
Seems like the 62gr TSX could be the hot ticket in this setup with reliable expansion to 200 yards:
Great discussion on 7.5" 5.56 ballistics:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=122&t=486625
"55gr factory .223 is about 2,300fps while 5.56x45 will be about 2,450fps. That's more or less a 4" to 5" tube to 200 yards. Javelina are toast with most any soft point to that distance. I load 62gr Barnes TSX to around 2,200 fps but I've pushed them to 2,300 fps (Wylde chamber). They fully expand at less than 1,900 fps and partially expand at lower velocities. "
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Cool...great info. You've put a bug in my brain about AR pistols...have to mull this over.
For a point of reference, the AUG is around 27".
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I guess I could take the rear stock off my Sig 556, and try it, although it has a 16" barrel. ::)
However, Barrett,Sig, Bushmaster, and DPMS, all offer an 8.5-10" barrel in an AR platform, that have merit.
IMHO, I would get heavier rounds, at least if the muzzle velocity is slower, the impact is harder.
Thank you for the report, pics, and vid.
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Went to the range Saturday and pushed the limits a bit trying to make hits at 400 yards and it was surprisingly easy with this darn pistol ;D. Even connected on a few at 500 with the help of a spotter, but after 400 that little 55 grain pill is dropping like a rock. Not that it would be very effective at those ranges (at 500 yards its just slightly more powerful than a 22LR at the muzzle) )but it was still a lot of fun.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa253/ruger4u/Picture21.png)
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Nice flamethrower. :) I want one. I've been thinking about getting a carbon-15 but keep putting it off. I don't shoot the guns I have now.
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Forgive my ignorance, but wouldnt one of those AR pistols benefit greatly from a vertical grip of some kind?
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Forgive my ignorance, but wouldnt one of those AR pistols benefit greatly from a vertical grip of some kind?
A VFG would make it an ANY OTHER WEAPON by ATF standards and require a tax stamp. Not going to happen in my state but honestly, I don't think it would make a huge difference. The thumb break method makes for a very stable firing grip. However, I would love a Magpul AFG on there ;D. There is still a debate on if it would be legal, but I would never risk it without a firm ruling from the ATF. Heck, I'm not even going to put a handstop on the forend, just not worth the risk even though most people would say its perfectly legal.