The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Hazcat on June 18, 2010, 07:39:17 AM
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(Reuters) - Prime Minister Vladimir Putin climbed into the cockpit of Russia's newest fighter jet on Thursday and said it would trump a U.S.-built rival, the F-22 Raptor.
Politics | Russia
Putin watched a test flight of a "fifth-generation" stealth fighter, dubbed the T-50 and billed as Russia's first all-new warplane since the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991.
"This machine will be superior to our main competitor, the F-22, in terms of maneuverability, weaponry and range," Putin told the pilot after the flight, according to an account on the government website.
Putin said the plane would cost up to three times less than similar aircraft in the West and could remain in service for 30 to 35 years with upgrades, according to the report.
Successful development of the fighter, built by Sukhoi, is crucial to showing Russia can challenge U.S. technology and modernize its military after a period of post-Soviet decay.
Russia also plans to manufacture T-50s jointly with India.
The F-22 raptor stealth fighter first flew in 1997 and is the only fifth-generation fighter in service. Fifth-generation aircraft have advanced flight and weapons control systems and can cruise at supersonic speeds.
According to the government website, the test pilot told Putin the controls of the T-50 allowed the pilot to operate most of the plane's systems without taking his hands off the joystick, which he said would be very useful under high forces of gravity.
"I know, I've flown," Putin replied. Sukhoi has said the plane should be ready for use in 2015.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65G64820100617?type=politicsNews
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Without the spirit and will of the people to remain a super-power (as evidenced by the douche we have put in the WH) this is only the beginning of the "second place finishes" we will see. Our salvation as a nation will come only when and if the masses fully understand that being second sucks. We may see a reawakening in 2012, but my optimism is not strong.
And while I recognize that we are not a true democracy but rather a republic, it seems the majority of my fellow citizens belive we are a democracy and Lord Acton's words ring true: “The one prevailing evil of democracy is the tyranny of the majority, or rather that party, not always the majority, that succeeds, by force or fraud, in carrying elections.”
(emphasis mine)
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Putin has flown ? Since when did the KGB 2nd Directorate teach anti dissident investigators to fly ?
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The Russians make junk, he's trumping up the airframe up to sell it to other countries. I doubt the Russian economy could afford to manufacture anything for themselves. Without the mob and the black market, there wouldn't be an economy.
Regardless of who occupies 1600 Penn Ave, we still make the best toys in the United States.
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I don't know about that Timothy. The Russians built some pretty good planes. Couple that with Indian designed avionics? Well, there is a reason every computer CS call goes to Mumbai. I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. The flip side is that it is irrelevant. There are virtually no circumstances where a sane Russian or American president would take our nations to war. As far as exports? At $35 million a pop, plus God knows how many dollars per flight hour for maintainence, thats a pretty exclusive shopping club. Iran is the only one who can afford it we need to worry about. Even there, our pilots are better and we have AWACs.
FQ13
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Actually, I believe Defense Review put them at about 100 mil a pop. Russia is still our enemy, maybe not directly or on their own but they sell anything they have to the highest bidder which makes them very dangerous.
What scares the shite out of some folks is the shear numbers the Russians and the Chinese can throw up together that would dwarf any response we could muster. Couple that with the fact we have that f..k stick you elected sitting there doing nothing to bolster our military and we have a problem.
Just my opinion and I will never trust a Russian for as long as I live!
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Fear not. They are the Russians. The two constants of Russian FP are these. They are envious of the West and have been since the Tsars. They are also paranoid about invasion and seek to protect themselves by building and maintaining "spheres of influence" to insulate themselves. Except under the Sovs, and even there, once the shine wore off their revolutionary ideology in the 1970s, they have never been into conquest. The only flash points are in places like Georgia and the Baltic states. I sympathise with Lithuania and Georgia, but I won't go to war for them. Poland? Thats a different story, but one that could be resolved diplomatically one hopes. God knows how much blood was spilt over it in 1939. The thing is, I don't trust the Russians either. But if history is any guide, they are not a nation bent on conquest. What they are is a nation of well armed paranoids living in fear of Napolean and Hitler. I for one have zero desire to rule Russia, even if they asked us to. Gas and oil be damned. The trick is to get Putin to understand that.
FQ13
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I tend to agree with FQ on the the Russian paranoia complex. The only time they aren't paranoid, it seems, is when they should be. (See example #1, Operation Barbarossa).
They have also built some very effective weapons, the AK-47, T34, Mig-29, and a few others. They advantage we have ALWAYS had is in the training of the person driving the weapon. Overall we know how to fight better with our "toys". We have/had some VERY high quality weapons systems that are true force multipliers as they say.
Or course the Soviet General's comment that "Quantity has a quality all its own" also comes in to play.
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Your right coop, the T34, AK, Mig-21 & 29, had us smoked until we do what we do best,.....BUT BHO cut the Raptor budget, aka "shelved" it......
Thanks BHO, just like NASA.......
now we'll PAY Russia millions to get our crap to the ISS... and pray we never have large scale aerial combat. Because Russia will sell these new planes to our favorite countries.
Yes we have better pilots, but any advantage, including the F-22, should be kept.
Liberals...... >:(
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Don't put to much faith in what Putin says, or in Russian tech either if you want to have an old age to worry about.
They still can't design anything on their own, that is the job of the FSB (KGB replacement that handles Foreign intel ).
Their workers can't match us in workmanship,
And all that sh!t that every one is so fearful of is based on ideas our own designers have already cast off as not workable, or dependable .
The T-34 was based on American (running gear [ Christy suspension] and engine ) and German manufacturing, turret, and Armor, gun ) technology.
The AK 's entire reputation relies on the fact that it is a crude POS.
The Migs only advantages were it's small size and inboard gun. When was the last time a country flying them won a war ?
Heck, when was the last time they won an air battle ?
As for Indian avionics, don't count on them having any more dealings with Russia for arms, The last 3 generations of Soviet/ Russian equipment the Indians bought none of the features,( Laser range finder, etc.) will work in India's heat.
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In a way Putin is correct as when the T-50 actually becomes operational the USAF will begin retiring the limited number of F-22's that it bought. Also the F-22, throughout it's originally assumed lifespan and 600+ units, was supposed to undergo continuous development and new blocks. With the decision to sink all US air fighter funds into the F-35 it is realistic to assume that there will be no funds to upgrade the F-22. The F-35 was supposed to serve as a testbed for incorporating new technologies into future blocks of the F-22 at greatly reduced prices. Unfortunately as the F-35 continuously skyrockets in price, and annually falls 2 years further behind service dates, the F-22 becomes easier and easier to retire earlier to save limited funds. This will be especially true in the next few years when all non Afghanistan related DOD budget items take the burden of looming cuts. There will still probably be F-16's in ANG and USAF service when the last of the Raptors is sent to the bone yard.
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Another reason to bring back the Cold War, to spur development.
German rearmament was what finally broke the back of the Depression, by forcing the rest of the world to open factories to try to keep up.
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The Russians make junk, he's trumping up the airframe up to sell it to other countries.
Don't underestimate them, or their equipment. Their AK-47 has handed us our a$$ in how many wars? Even now our M-4 is having a lot of issues in the Middle East. It can't handle the sand in Iraq, or the range it needs to have in Afghanistan. As far as their aircraft, I wouldn't be too anxious to fight an aircraft that has this kind of capability:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd8oS2voj4o&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeiqMn7xb_Y&feature=related
Not to mention they could probably build 10 of them for the cost of one F-22. Bill T.
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USAF Pilot Critiques Red Flag Action
Nov 5, 2008
David A. Fulghum and Graham Warwick
Indian pilots flying Su-30MKIs are extremely professional, but they're still learning how to best fight with their new aircraft.
That opinion comes from an unidentified, senior F-15 pilot taped while briefing senior retired U.S. Air Force officers about the most recent Red Flag exercise. The video was made available online at YouTube.com.
The French pilots flying the new Dassault Rafale appeared to be there to collect electronic intelligence on the Indian aircraft, contends the USAF pilot, who wears an Air Force Weapons School graduate patch.
The French were originally going to bring the older Mirage 2000-5 until they discovered the Indians were bringing their new Su-30MKIs, the pilot says. They then switched and brought their Rafales with more sophisticated electronic surveillance equipment.
Once at Red Flag, "90 percent of the time they followed the Indians so when they took a shot or got shot" they would take a quick shot of their own and then leave," he said. "They never came to any merges," which starts the dogfighting portion of any air-to-air combat. He asserts that French pilots followed the same procedure during Desert Storm and Peace Keeping exercises. When U.S. aircrews were flying operations, the French would fly local sorties while "sucking up all the trons" to see how U.S. electronics, like radars, worked, according to the pilot.
He praised the Indians as extremely professional and said they had no training rule violations. However, they "killed a lot of friendlies" because they were tied to a Russian-made data link system that didn't allow them to see the picture of the battlefield available to everyone else. The lack of combat identification of the other aircraft caused confusion.
But the U.S. apparently isn't ignorant of the Su-30MKI's radar either.
The Su-30 electronically scanned radar is not as accurate as the U.S.-built active electronically scanned radar carried by the F-22 and some F-15s. Also, "it paints less, sees less" and is not as discriminating.
He praised the F-22 as the next great dogfighter. But he faulted the fact that it carries too few missiles and contends that the on-board cannon could be a life-saver, particularly against aircraft like the MiG-21 Bison flown by the Indians. It has a small radar cross section, as well as an Israeli-made F-16 radar and jammer. The latter makes them "almost invisible to legacy F-15C and F-16 radars" until the aerial merge or until it fires one of its Archer, active radar missiles, the U.S. pilot says.
Against the much larger RCS Su-30MKI, the F-16s and F-15s won consistently during the first three days of air-to-air combat, he continues. However, that was the result of trying to immediately go into a post-stall, thrust-vectored turn when attacked. The turn then creates massive drag and the aircraft starts sinking and losing altitude. "It starts dropping so fast you don't have to go vertical [first]. The low-speed tail slide allowed the U.S. aircraft to dive from above and "get one chance to come down to shoot," the pilot says. "You go to guns and drill his brains out." The Su-30 is jamming your missiles so...you go to guns and drill his brains out."
U.S. pilots conclude that the Su-30MKI is "not [an F-22] Raptor," he further says. "That was good for us to find out." But when the Indian pilots really learn to fight their new aircraft - "they were too anxious to go to the post-stall maneuver," he says-- the USAF pilot predicts that they would regularly defeat the F-16C Block 50 and the F-15C with conventional radar.
A final weakness in the Su-30MKI was its engine's vulnerability to foreign object damage which required them to space takeoffs a minute apart and slowed mission launches.