The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Solus on June 22, 2010, 09:16:16 AM
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Full story at MSNBC
The top U.S. commander in Afghanistan has been summoned to Washington to explain derogatory comments about President Barack Obama and his colleagues, administration officials said Tuesday.
The move came hours after General Stanley McChrystal apologized for comments by his aides insulting some of President Barack Obama's closest advisers in an article to be published in Rolling Stone magazine.
In the magazine profile, his aides are quoted mocking Vice President Joe Biden and Richard Holbrooke, the special U.S. representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan.
McChrystal has seized control of the war "by never taking his eye off the real enemy: The wimps in the White House."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37839756/ns/us_news-military/
I don't know what kind of job McChrystal is doing, but if he is doing a good job, Obama could have defused this crisis and gained many points with the Military by simply saying "Yes, compared to the General and our troops, we are wimps". Then had a quiet discussion with the General about how to develop a good working relationship between the leader of our Afgan forces and their Commander In Chief.
Of course, that would require The Commander In Cheif to give a damn about the military.
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The good General simply gave voice to what we all know to be true. He will likely be fired/forced to resign because he is a leader with vision--and Odamna and his crew are fearful of what they don't begin to comprehend.
I'm wishing my life away, but I can hardly wait until 2012.
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The funny part is that Gen McChrystal allegedly voted for Obama. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37839756/ns/us_news-military/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37839756/ns/us_news-military/)
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I'm probably in the minority but my $.02
He needs to go.
Regardless of who is the POTUS is you need to be respectful of the office if not the man. It would appear he ran a less than profesional staff and allowed junior staff officers to be critical in public of the civilian leadership. Not allowed by any decent leader.
There is always going to be some complaining and you'll never stop people from voicing their opinions. Doing it in front of the press is something no general officer should allow. If anything it look liked they did it to suck up to his views.
If things were going gang busters in AFPAK it would be a an ass chewing but we are in the same place as when he took over. He certainly is no Patton or MacArthur.
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We have a long tradition of Generals being relieved because they did not know when to shut their pie holes, MacArthur is one example, McClellan's poor performance at Antietam was simply an excuse to rid the Lincoln of a General who was campaigning for President from the head of the Army of the Potomac.
I agree with Ratcatcher, while I agree with what was said about those "Striped pants sissies" in DC, if we are to maintain the integrity of the Republic then the military MUST remain aloof from the political issues of they day
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Send in Rahm Emmanual. He'll cuss them to death! Bill T.
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Send in Rahm Emmanual. He'll cuss them to death disappear! Bill T.
FIFY
By the way, I heard a rumor he got fired ?
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It's a shame the guy had an impressive career.
Karzi has come out to support of him so that's the kiss of death right there.
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It's a shame the guy had an impressive career.
Karzi has come out to support of him so that's the kiss of death right there.
RC, you mistake me, I meant I heard Rahm got canned.
And yes, his career has impressed even other "No scruple scumbags" ;D
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Rahm may run for mayor of Chicago.
A perfect fit for that town. ;D
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FIFY
By the way, I heard a rumor he got fired ?
Only a rumor thus far. The skinny is he doesn't get along that well with Hussein. He is predicted to exit at or around the November elections. The way it's going for Hussein, it may be quicker than that. There is also talk he will dump Biden as V.P. if he runs for a second term. Bill T.
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US code of military justice does not allow criticism of your superiors, no matter how inferior they are. That said, it needed to be said by somebody. He will probably take the fall, and God knows who will replace him, that bothers me more.
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The war is getting worse by the day. This is getting to be Viet Nam redux. Lousy, corrupt government the people don't want, and will not fight for. When will we ever learn? All these people want to do is grow their dope, beat their women, and kill people in between. They've been doing it for 1,000 years. The Russians couldn't take them with zero "rules of engagement", and now we will? Doubtful. Bill T.
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The current rules of engagement, and "appeasement" of warlords to control their own is a carrot on a stick approach, that has always proven, historically, to FAIL.
We are now almost 9 years into Afghanistan. To what end? The nation building crap was, IMHO, was a mistake. Post 9/11, as I have previously posted, should have been nothing but a 90 day shock and awe, total retaliation for the attack on our country.
Yes, there would be civilian casualties. Just like Germany and Japan, F*** with us, and you will pay dearly.
It's all these people understand. What was Afghanistan before 9/11? A sanctuary of lawless terrorist training camps, and poppy fields.
Now funded by Iran, it won;t end under our current action.
McChrystal ran Black Ops, and is known as a "Bad Ass". He is clearly expressing his frustration.
Yes, there are still some lingering questions about Pat Tillmans ruksack, the ribbing comments against Shleppy the Clown Biden, and our complete ass of a POTUS BHO.
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here is the Aussie version of the report
McChrystal seems like a good bloke
http://www.news.com.au/world/general-mcchrystal-summoned-to-white-house-over-rolling-stone-interview/story-e6frfkyi-1225882998125
THE top US commander in Afghanistan, General Stanley McChrystal, has been ordered to the White House to explain his criticism of the President and his senior advisers in an interview in Rolling Stone magazine.
"McChrystal has been directed to attend (Wednesday's) monthly meeting on Afghanistan and Pakistan in person to explain to the Pentagon and the commander in chief his quotes in the piece about his colleagues," a White House official said.
In a profile in Rolling Stone, General McChrystal critcised Vice President Joe Biden, who has been sceptical of the general's war strategy, and imagined ways of "dismissing the Vice President with a good one-liner."
McChrystal also told the magazine that he felt "betrayed" by the US ambassador to Kabul, Karl Eikenberry, in a White House debate over war strategy last year.
And an unnamed adviser to General McChrystal told the magazine that the general came away unimpressed from a meeting with President Barack Obama in the Oval Office a year ago.
"It was a 10-minute photo op," the general's adviser said.
"Obama clearly didn't know anything about him, who he was ... he didn't seem very engaged."
Another aide called the national security adviser, Jim Jones, a "clown" who was "stuck in 1985".
General McChrystal has apologised for his remarks to the magazine.
"I extend my sincerest apology for this profile," he said in a statement issued hours after the article, entitled The Runaway General, was released.
"It was a mistake reflecting poor judgment and should never have happened."
General McChrystal, a former special operations chief, usually speaks cautiously in public and has enjoyed mostly sympathetic US media coverage since he took over the Nato-led force last year.
In Brussels, Nato chief Anders Fogh Rasmussen indicated support for the US commander, expressing full confidence in General McChystal and his strategy.
"The Rolling Stone article is rather unfortunate, but it is just an article," Mr Rasmussen's spokesman said.
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Yes, there would be civilian casualties. Just like Germany and Japan, F*** with us, and you will pay dearly.
That mentality is gone in this country, and that is why we will never win a war until it changes, period. Go back to WW II. The B-29 bombing campaign of Tokyo from the Marianas Islands was going poorly. They brought in General Curtis Le May to see if he could improve results. He basically said, after looking all of our tactics over, the entire campaign of air bombardment of Japan was a cluster f#*k. He changed it. The B-29's went in at night, not day. They dropped their ordnance from 13,000 feet, not 30,000. They switched to Incendiaries from high explosives. The Japanese cities were made of paper and wood, and were essentially fire traps. His comment was, "We'll burn the bastards out!".
And that he did. 100,000 people, mostly civilians, were killed. Most were burned to death. Over 1,000,000 (one million) homes were lost. Over 50% of Tokyo was destroyed by the end of WW II.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo
That is how you win a war, and this country will have none of it because of socialist, liberal, pansy a$$ thinking, that worries more about "collateral damage" than they do WINNING.. Our enemies however, have not lost that winning mentality. You have to use weapons in battle, not just "have them as a deterrent". Bill T.
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Going to have to agree with RCatcher and M25 here. He's gonna be looking for a job.
The UCMJ is pretty clear as is the oath of an officer when they sign up. In the military, you don't salute the man, you salute the rank and the POTUS outranks everyone in the game. (As much as it pains me to say that)...as long as the order is LEGAL, you're required to follow it and keep your pie hole shut!
At this point we have a Marine Division guarding poppy fields for the local drug dealing shiteheads. The US Marine Corp in the drug business, what a new direction to take our military might...
:P
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They are upset about what McChrystal allegedly said in a magazine article. I shudder to think what Patton and Le May would have said about this fraud of a President, along with his staff of idiot's, TO THEIR FACE!. Bill T.
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They are upset about what McChrystal allegedly said in a magazine article. I shudder to think what Patton and Le May would have said about this fraud of a President, along with his staff of idiot's, TO THEIR FACE!. Bill T.
Patton would have slapped the $hit out of BHO and left him crying like a girl on the floor of the oval office.
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He wouldn't be the first person to lose his job or command over telling the truth. It's a shame he didn't have more control over himself and more importantly his junior staff. I'm sure he faces an enormous amount of frustration in dealing with the fools and thieves he must deal with daily. Perhaps he's smarter than what everyone is giving him credit for and was willing from the start to fall on his sword in order to get the message out. Unfortunately if that were true he should've been even more candid about what is really going on.
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Actually, as I understand the OP, the comments that are raising a stink were repeated to the writer by one of the Gens. staff.
McChrystal is not the one who should be punished for remarks made in private. A staff Officer who can not keep his mouth shut needs to be shafted hard.
They are upset about what McChrystal allegedly said in a magazine article. I shudder to think what Patton and Le May would have said about this fraud of a President, along with his staff of idiot's, TO THEIR FACE!. Bill T.
You completely misunderstand the Nature of Gen Patton, he was a soldier, He would have said "Yes sir !" and "No sir".
Patton, MacC., Lemay, or Rickover would be the first to tell you that " An Officers duty is to obey the lawful orders of his commanders, even this a-HOLE"
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You completely misunderstand the Nature of Gen Patton, he was a soldier, He would have said "Yes sir !" and "No sir".
Patton, MacC., Lemay, or Rickover would be the first to tell you that " An Officers duty is to obey the lawful orders of his commanders, even this a-HOLE"
But wasn't it Patton who was going to drive his tanks all the way to Moscow? As I recall the only way we were able to shut him down was to cut off his supply line.
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But wasn't it Patton who was going to drive his tanks all the way to Moscow? As I recall the only way we were able to shut him down was to cut off his supply line.
Patton got spanked for comments about Monty. Eisenhower told him do not speak poorly about the allies. Same about the Russians at the end of the war.
Patton got relieved for comments about using former Nazis to run the occupation. That was a political nightmare back home.
MacArthur got relieved because he said there was no Chinese threat in Korea and if they were stupid enough to attack, the UN would crush them.
He moved past stop lines twice giving the ChiComs an excuse to invade. Mac had been warned not to get China involved and he ignored it as unimportant.
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Patton routinely went against Eisenhower's orders. So much so he was relieved of his command. "They" thought he was crazy. However, had "they" listened to him we could have avoided a 50 year cold war that cost hundreds of billions. Bill T.
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About the worst case scenario is to have a "peace loving" President, ignore a battle hardened General. I offer Afghanistan as a perfect example. This "kinder, gentler war" nonsense has gotten this nation into nothing but trouble. If it takes this idiot months to make up his mind about sending more troops, what's going to happen when we've got a real problem? This a$$hat couldn't "manage" a Baskin Robbins. Bill T.
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It's just been reported Hussein has relieved him of his command. David Petraeus will most likely replace him. Bill T.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37866754/ns/us_news-military
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It's just been reported Hussein has relieved him of his command. David Petraeus will most likely replace him. Bill T.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37866754/ns/us_news-military
As far as chain of command is concerned, this was the right action. However under the circumstances and considering the current regime, I think that the dear leader just lost the war in Afghanistan. Not that he had the balls to win it in the first place.... ::)
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Looks like Gen. Petraeus will be taking command.
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Looks like Gen. Petraeus will be taking command.
That will just make code pink's day. ;D
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The truth hurts (about them being wimps) but you cannot disrespect the Commander in Chief without repurcussions. He should have known that nothing is off the record when it comes to reporters.
I think he deserved a smack on the wrist but the POTUS should not have been removed McChrystal from his command. Just my two bits.
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http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,116002,00.html
If McChrystal retires, (there aren't too many other options), he will do so earning well into 6 figures a year for life. Bill T.
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You know he will be making a ton of money for speaking about this incident. I never knew McChrystal's name till after this incident. Now everyone is going to know who he is and will want to talk with him. Just like Oliver North but different circumstances of course.
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Just call a spade a spade.I think Mac wanted out so he did the unforgivable he told the truth about a bunch of wimps that are getting our people killed with the R. O. E.now in force. YMMV
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Obama: Ummm.... the general must go.... because.... making sure I dont look bad.... is far more important.... then.... whats in the best interest of the country.
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Patton routinely went against Eisenhower's orders. So much so he was relieved of his command. "They" thought he was crazy. However, had "they" listened to him we could have avoided a 50 year cold war that cost hundreds of billions. Bill T.
Not quite true
Patton and Eisenhower were personal friends. Their families vacationed together.
Patton thought that Eisenhower was a great people person and administrator. He stated that he could never have kept that many groups, Brits, Canadians, Free French, Poles working together. He also teased Ike that he out ranked him in the regular army. War ranks were not carried over in the peace time army.
Patton was reliieved of command twice, Once for striking an enlisted man (2 occasions in Sicily) and once for wilfully violating JCS 1067, the occupation of Germany by employing Nazis. The first was by Ike, the second time by George Marshall. In both cases he could have been broken from the service. He got off lightly because of his track record.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JCS_1067#JCS_1067
Marshall may have agreed with Patton because in 1947 he worked to get the plan removed by Truman.
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You know he will be making a ton of money for speaking about this incident. I never knew McChrystal's name till after this incident. Now everyone is going to know who he is and will want to talk with him. Just like Oliver North but different circumstances of course.
"Stormin Norman" Schwarzkopf did well for himself after he retired from serving as Commander in Desert Storm. Book deals, as well as cashing in on the "Manure Tour" of public speeches. I'm glad for all of them. They deserve whatever they can get. Bill T.
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http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,116002,00.html
If McChrystal retires, (there aren't too many other options), he will do so earning well into 6 figures a year for life. Bill T.
Hell, just his military pension is more than $100,000 a year...
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Isn't there something in the UCMJ that states that a lower ranking officer can relieve a higher ranking officer if he is deemed unfit for duty? I realize this is a stretch, but does anyone here really think BHO is fit for command?
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Isn't there something in the UCMJ that states that a lower ranking officer can relieve a higher ranking officer if he is deemed unfit for duty? I realize this is a stretch, but does anyone here really think BHO is fit for command?
I don't think that legally, the POTUS is held to the UCMJ. The Constitution allows for impeachment proceedings for "crimes and misdemeanors", just ask Slick Willy...
To answer the basic question, yes! The UCMJ has articles that allow a junior officer to take command but he better be able to justify it, qoute chapter and verse and be willing to suffer the consequences should he fail to prove the action when they court martial him or her!
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The senate convicted Aaron Burr of "Treason,and "High misdemeanors".
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McChrystal, and now Petraeus, are scapegoats. The whole CentCom is coming apart. The Iraqis are barely functional, the Afghans could find thier a$$ with both hands, and the Paks just want cash. Obummer got rid of McChrystal for stating the truth, now he can get rid of Petraeus when things don't improve.
Part of the ROE issue is McChrystal's, at least that is the impression from the article that started all this. I'm sure part of it is directed from above, JCS and CinC, but his directives are being added to by lower echelon leadership so now the ROE is extremely restrictive.
There is a large pool of thought that the LESS restrictive the ROE the LESS likely it is for civilian casualties. Basically boils down to if PFC Jones has to go through a checklist before he fires, then hope his CO and higher backs him up one of two things happens. PFC Jones gets shot because he took to long to decide or he lights up anything moving because there MAY be a weapon. If the ROE is a little looser and the COs back up their guys then PFC Jones knows if he's threatened he'll be OK so he's less likely to be scared into shooting when no threat was there.
I want a Warrior running my war, not a lap dog "yes man". Our allies really thought McChrystal was doing a good job for what he was handed. Petraeus has a lot of work ahead of him.
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I would resign, if I had to take orders from that REMF, too...
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As a former REMF I resent sharing the title with that a--hole.
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The General and the Community Organizer
by Paul R. Hollrah
June 24, 2010
Channel-surfing from ABC, CBS, NBC, and CNN through MSNBC and Fox News, the inside-the-beltway pundits had a field day trying to get inside the heads of Barack Obama, Joe Biden, General Stanley McChrystal, and McChrystal's top aides. The one thing common to all of the analyses, by the most famous and highly-paid talking heads in the Western World, was that they are all wrong… dead wrong. What is certain is that they all owe General McChrystal and his senior aides an apology for assuming that they are lame-brained numbskulls.
The facts of the McChrystal case are not in dispute. General McChrystal and his senior officers allowed a reporter for Rolling Stone Magazine, Michael Hastings, to have almost unprecedented access during an extended stay in Paris. The extended stay was due, in part, to an excess of atmospheric ash from Iceland's Eyjafjallajokull volcano, keeping the McChrystal party grounded for days.
In an interview with CNN, Hastings reported that he had a tape recorder in his hand most of the time and that McChrystal was "very aware" that his comments would find their way into print. He said, "McChrystal and his people set no ground rules for their conversations, although they did ask that some parts of their conversations were off the record." Hastings subsequently published a lengthy profile of General McChrystal on June 22, titled, The Runaway General.
As Hastings wrote in his profile, McChrystal thought that Obama looked "uncomfortable and intimidated" by the roomful of military brass during their first meeting. Of their second meeting, an advisor to McChrystal quoted the general as saying that it was "a 10-minute photo op." He went on to say, "Obama clearly didn't know anything about (McChrystal), who he was. Here's the guy who's going to run his f_ _ _ing war, but he didn't seem very engaged. The Boss was pretty disappointed."
As General McChrystal flew from Afghanistan to Washington to face Obama in the Oval Office, the almost unanimous opinion of the talking heads was that the comments made by McChrystal and his staff were off the cuff and inadvertent. But to believe that is to totally ignore who these men are.
General McChrystal and his top officers are not simple-minded, knuckle-dragging brutes. To the contrary, they are intelligent, thoughtful, highly educated, patriots… graduates of West Point and other fine universities… who are dedicated to duty, honor, and country. To think that such men would be so careless as to speak unflatteringly of Obama, Biden, and other top administration figures, in the presence of a reporter for a notoriously left wing publication, defies logic… at the very least. To think that men who are trained to be careful and deliberate in everything they do, could do something so careless and so unguarded is simply beyond comprehension.
I would argue that McChrystal and his aides knew exactly what they were doing.
From the day that he became the handpicked "spear carrier" for Obama's unique brand of warfare… playing at being Commander in Chief while playing to his far left constituency… McChrystal's life had been one of constant frustration. After telling Obama exactly how many troops he needed to carry out his mission, Obama dithered for months before deciding to give him just half the troops he requested. McChrystal could not have been happy about that.
The Obama team insisted on new Rules of Engagement designed to reduce collateral damage (civilian casualties). Obama's ROE required that U.S. troops must be able to see the enemy with weapon in hand before they were allowed to return fire. One videotape circulated on the Internet showed a platoon of Marines pinned down by enemy sniper fire. But since the enemy was firing from some distance behind the open window of a building, the Marines could not actually see the weapon being fired. Although they were taking deadly fire, they were prohibited by the ROE from putting small arms fire or an RPG through the window opening.
Under Obama's politically correct ROE, our soldiers and Marines were required to fight with one hand tied behind their backs. McChrystal could not have been happy about that.
A strict new interrogation policy, dictated by Attorney General Eric Holder, required that prisoners must be delivered to an Interrogation Center within twenty-four hours of being captured or be released. A great deal of actionable intelligence was lost as a result and battle-hardened enemy fighters were returned to the field to kill Americans. McChrystal must have found that to be incomprehensible.
But the greatest insult to our troops in the field, and to the officers who lead them, may be a new battlefield medal designed by the Obama team. It is called the Courageous Restraint Medal and is awarded to soldiers and Marines who demonstrate uncommon restrain in combat by not firing their weapons even when they feel threatened by the enemy. Would we be surprised to learn that the preponderance of these medals were awarded posthumously? McChrystal must have found that to be an insanity.
I suggest that, having his best military judgments subjected to the White House political sieve for nearly a year and a half, McChrystal decided that he'd had enough. And when he announced to his senior staff that he was prepared to retire they decided to push back… to make the most of a bad situation. It was clear that, if McChrystal were to simply take off his uniform and walk away, his retirement would be page-twenty news for a day or two before the mainstream media and the American people forgot all about him.
They had to make the most of his retirement because it provided a one-time opportunity to show the American people, as well as our enemies and our allies, that the man who claims the title of Commander in Chief of the U.S. military does not command the respect of our men and women in uniform. To make the most of that opportunity they had to choose their messenger very carefully.
They knew that, by openly showing their disrespect for Obama in front of just any newsman, they may not attract the attention they desired. Like any astute observer of the MSM, they knew that most reporters would turn on their own mothers if it meant a good story. But they could not take a chance that a mainstream media reporter might suffer a rare pang of conscience when confronted with the prospect of ruining the careers of some of the most senior officers in the War on Terror. They had to fix the odds as much as possible in their favor so they chose to use Michael Hastings and Rolling Stone Magazine.
During the long hours that General McChrystal was in the air between Kabul and Washington, Obama knew that he had just two choices… both bad. He could declare McChrystal to be an irreplaceable asset in the war effort, give him a public reprimand, and send him back to Kabul. Or he could fire McChrystal, sending a clear message that, at least in his own mind, he was the Commander in Chief.
In the former case, he was certain to appear weak and ineffectual… a man not totally in charge. In the latter case, he might at least win a few rave reviews from the Kool-Ade drinkers in the mainstream media. He chose the latter of the two options.
But what is now lost in all of the hand-wringing and speculation is the fact that McChrystal and his people have succeeded in doing exactly what they set out to do. They wanted to plant the seed in the minds of the American people that Obama is not up to the task of being Commander in Chief and that he does not command the respect of the men and women of the uniformed services… from the newest Private E-1 up to the top four-star generals and admirals.
That seed is now firmly planted and it cannot be unplanted.
From this day forward, no one will have to tell the American people that Stanley McChrystal is a true warrior, a man's man, and that Barack Obama is nothing more than a… community organizer. Well done, General!
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From this day forward, no one will have to tell the American people that Stanley McChrystal is a true warrior, a man's man, and that Barack Obama is nothing more than a… community organizer. Well done, General!
+100
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The important thing to remember is that with each and every passing day, the Hussein Presidency is getting worse and worse. This will continue until he and his entire administration totally implodes. The November elections will be the coup de gras that will finish him off.
That is when I look for him to lash out at both the Republicans, and the American people for putting them there. Hussein takes everything personally. Very personally. He also doesn't give a damn what the American people want. That he has proven over and over. We are barely 18 months into his administration, and look at all of what has gone horribly wrong for him.
You cannot blame the oil spill disaster on him, but you can blame his inept, and lackluster way of handling it. He is proving with each passing day he is neither a leader, or a manager. This is why he is giving Petraeus a long leash on which to deal with Afghanistan. It is the only smart thing he's done since he took office. And he has even managed to look like a fool doing that. He, and the liberal left who supports him, were touting Petraeus as "General Betray Us" under the Bush administration. Stating on numerous occasions that the surge would not work. Now he employs the same General to do the exact same thing for him. This will all end with a big bang. When it does the barrel will undoubtedly be pointed at Hussein. This entire administration is headed for self destruction when it plays itself out at the end. Much like a tape on "Mission Impossible". Bill T.
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Posted by: billt
The important thing to remember is that with each and every passing day, the Hussein Presidency is getting worse and worse. This will continue until he and his entire administration totally implodes.
Your lips to God's ears, Bill. Or, should that be, your keyboard to God's monitor? Either way, it cannot happen soon enough.
Prayed by Crusader, who really hopes God listens to political praying.