The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Teresa Heilevang on January 30, 2008, 12:37:16 AM
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A Field Guide to Gun Shows
Gun shows are an old and honored American tradition. The
basic idea-putting sellers, buyers, and stock in the same room and
letting Free Market Forces go to work-is as old as commerce, but the
American form of gun show has evolved its own manners, vocabulary,
and etiquette.
Gun shows are run by and for dreamers. Every dealer who sets up a
table seems to think that the people who attend are half-wits who
will happily pay 25% more than manufacturer's suggested retail price
for their goods; and all the attendees hold it as an article of faith
that the exhibitors are desperate men who have come in the hopes of
finally disposing of their stock at 30% less than wholesale cost. In
this environment it helps to have some idea what to expect; so for
the benefit of those who are so unfortunate as never to have
experienced this distinctively American form of mass entertainment, I
offer this guide, the summation of what I've learned from 30 years of
show-going.
I've included a glossary of terms you'll need to know,
and an introduction to some of the people you'll meet.
GLOSSARY
The following terms apply to items offered for sale:
MINT CONDITION: In original condition as manufactured, unfired, and
preferably in the original box with all manufacturer's tags, labels,
and paperwork.
NEAR-MINT CONDITION: Has had no more than 5,000 rounds fired through
it and it still retains at least 60% of the original finish. Surface
pitting is no more than 1/8" deep, and both grip panels are in place.
If it is a .22, some of the rifling is still visible.
VERY GOOD: Non-functional when you buy it, but you can probably get
it to work if you replace 100% of the parts.
FAIR: Rusted into a solid mass with a shape vaguely reminiscent of a
firearm.
TIGHT: In revolvers, the cylinder swings out, but you need two hands
to close it again. For autoloaders, you must bang the front of the
slide on a table to push it back.
REALLY TIGHT: In revolvers you cannot open the cylinder without a
lever. Once it's open the extractor rod gets stuck halfway through
its travel. On autoloaders, you need a hammer to close the slide.
A LITTLE LOOSE: In revolvers, the cylinder falls out and the chambers
are 1/4" out of line when locked up. There is no more than 1/2" of
end play. For autoloaders, the barrel falls out when the slide is
retracted. If the barrel stays in place, the slide falls off.
GOOD BORE: You can tell it was once rifled and even approximately how
many grooves there were.
FAIR BORE: Would be similar to GOOD BORE, if you could see light
through it.
NEEDS A LITTLE WORK: May function sometimes if you have a gunsmith
replace minor parts, such as the bolt, cylinder, or barrel.
ARSENAL RECONDITIONED: I cleaned it up with a wire wheel and some
stuff I bought at K-Mart.
ANTIQUE: I found it in a barn, and I think it dates from before 1960.
Note that ANTIQUE guns are usually found in FAIR condition.
RARE VARIANT: No more than 500,000 of this model were ever made, not
counting the ones produced before serial numbers were required. RARE
VARIANTS command a premium price of 150% of BOOK VALUE.
BOOK VALUE: An irrational number which dealers consider insultingly
low and buyers ridiculously high. Since no one pays any attention to
it, it doesn't matter.
IT BELONGED TO MY GRANDFATHER: I bought it at a flea market two weeks
ago.
CIVIL WAR RELIC: The vendor's great-grandfather knew a man whose
friend had been in the Civil War.
SHOOTS REAL GOOD: For rifles, this means at 100 yards it will put
every shot into a 14" circle if there isn't any wind and you're using
a machine rest. For handguns, three out of six rounds will impact a
silhouette target at seven yards. In shotguns, it means that the full
choke tube throws 60% patterns with holes no bigger than 8" in them.
ON CONSIGNMENT: The vendor at the show does not own the gun. It
belongs to a friend, customer, or business associate, and he has been
instructed to sell it, for which he will be paid a commission. He has
no authority to discuss price. The price marked is 150% above BOOK
VALUE. All used guns offered for sale at gun shows, without
exception, are ON CONSIGNMENT, and the dealer is required by his Code
of Ethics to tell you this as soon as you ask the price. A BATF study
has proven that since 1934 there has never been a single
authenticated case of a used gun being offered for sale at a gun show
that was actually owned by the dealer showing it.
I'LL LET IT GO FOR WHAT I HAVE IN IT: I'll settle for what I paid for
it plus a 250% profit.
MAKE ME AN OFFER: How dumb are you?
TELL ME HOW MUCH IT'S WORTH TO YOU: I'll bet you're even dumber than
you look.
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PEOPLE YOU WILL MEET AT THE GUN SHOW
RAMBO: He's looking for an Ingram MAC-10, and wants to have it custom
chambered in .44 Magnum as a back-up gun. For primary carry he wants
a Desert Eagle, provided he can get it custom chambered in .50 BMG.
He derides the .50 Action Express as a wimp round designed for
ladies' pocket pistols. He has already bought three years' worth of
freeze- dried MRE's from MARK, as well as seven knives. He is dressed
in camouflage BDU's and a black T-shirt with the 101st AirBorne
Division insignia, though he has never been in the Army. He works as
a bag boy at Kroger's.
BUBBA: He needs some money, and has reluctantly decided to sell his
Daddy's .30-30, a Marlin 336 made in 1961. He indignantly refuses all
cash offers below his asking price of $475. Unable to sell it,
eventually he trades it plus another $175 for a new-in-box H&R Topper
in .219 Zipper. He feels pretty good about the deal.
GORDON: He is walking the aisles with a Remington Model 700 ADL
in .30-06 on his shoulder. He's put an Uncle Mike's cordura sling and
a Tasco 3x9 variable scope on it. A small stick protrudes from the
barrel, bearing the words, "LIKE NEW ONLY THREE BOXES SHELLS FIRED
$800." This is his third trip to a show with this particular rifle,
which he has never actually used, since he lives in a shotgun-only
area for deer.
DAWN: She is here with her boyfriend, DARRYL. At the last show,
DARRYL bought her a Taurus Model 66 in .357 Magnum. She fired it
twice and is afraid of it, but she keeps it in a box on the top shelf
of her clothes closet in case someone breaks in. She is dressed in a
pair of blue jeans that came out of a spray can, a "Soldier of
Fortune" T-shirt two sizes too small, and 4" high heels. DARRYL is
ignoring her, but nobody else is.
DARRYL: He has been engaged to DAWN for three years. He likes
shotguns for defense, and he's frustrated that he can't get a Street
Sweeper, so he's bought a Mossberg 500 with the 18-1/2" barrel, a
perforated handguard, and a pistol grip. He plans to use it for
squirrel hunting when he isn't sleeping with it. He plans to marry
DAWN as soon as he gets a job which pays him enough to take over the
payments on her mobile home.
ARNOLD: He is a car salesman in Charlottesville, Virginia. He has a
passion for Civil War guns, especially cap-and-ball revolvers. He has
a reproduction Remington 1858, and is looking for a real one he can
afford. He owns two other guns: a S&W Model 60 and a Sauer & Sohn
drilling his father brought home from the war in 1945. He has no idea
what caliber the rifle barrel on his drilling is, and he last fired
the Model 60 five years ago.
DICK: He is a gun dealer who makes his overhead selling Jennings J-
25's, Lorcin .380's, and H&R top-break revolvers. He buys the J-25's
in lots of 1000 direct from the factory at $28.75 each, and sells
them for $68.00 to gun show customers. He buys the H&R's for $10 at
estate auctions and asks $85 for them, letting you talk him down to
$78 when he is feeling generous. His records are meticulously kept,
and he insists on proper ID and a signature on the 4473. He doesn't
care whether the ID and the signature are yours, however. Other than
his stock, he owns no guns and he has no interest in them.
ARLENE: She is DICK's wife. She hates guns and gun shows more than
anything in the world. Her husband insists that she accompany him to
keep an eye on the table when he's dickering or has to go to the
men's room. She refuses to come unless she can bring her SONY
portable TV, even though she gets lousy reception in the Civic Center
and there isn't any cable. When DICK is away from the table, she has
no authority to negotiate, and demands full asking price for
everything. She doesn't know the difference between a rifle and a
shotgun, and she doesn't care, either.
MARK: He doesn't have an FFL. He buys a table at the show to sell
nylon holsters, magazines, T-shirts, bumper stickers, fake Nazi
regalia, surplus web gear, MRE's and accessories. He makes more money
than anyone else in the hall.
ALAN: He's not a dealer, but he had a bunch of odds and ends to
dispose of, so he bought a table. On it he displays used loading dies
in 7.65 Belgian and .25-20, both in boxes from the original Herter's
company. He also has a half-box of .38-55 cartridges, a Western-style
gun belt he hasn't been able to wear since 1978, a used cleaning kit,
and a nickel-plated Iver Johnson Premier revolver in .32 S&W. He's
asking $125 for the gun and $40 for each of the die sets. He paid $35
for the table and figures he needs to get at least that much to cover
his expenses and the value of his time.
GERALD: He's a physician specializing in diseases of the rich. He
collects Brownings, and specializes in High-Power pistols, Superposed
shotguns, and Model 1900's. He has 98% of the known variations of
each of these, and now plans to branch out into the 1906 and 1910
pocket pistols. He owns no handguns made after the Germans left Liege
in 1944. He regards Japanese-made "Brownings" as a personal insult
and is a little contemptuous of Inglis-made High-Powers. He does not
hunt or shoot. He buys all his gun accessories from Orvis and Dunn's.
KEVIN: He is 13, and this is his first gun show. His eyes are bugged
out with amazement, and he wonders what his J.C. Higgins single-shot
20-gauge is worth. His father gives him an advance on his allowance
so he can buy a used Remington Nylon 66. He's hooked for life and
will end up on the NRA's Board of Directors.
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ugh you forgot one...
TAB... I mean jim... yeah thats it...the guys name is jim.
wanders Gun shows cash in hand looking for 16 ga shot guns, does not know why he likes 16 ga, but if he finds one he will buy it and add it to the other 37 16 ga he already owns.
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Nylon 66, Greatest little .22 plinker rifle ever made!
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You also forgot Bob, everybody knows Bob.
He's the guy thats at every show, handles every gun, interrupts you when your trying to make a deal, but doesn't buy anything and bitches about the 3 dollars to get in.
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Yeah, and I can think of one more that was forgotten. "MR. Hey Whact Ya Got There. You want to trade?" I dunno how many times I've been asked that. Last time I went to the gunshow I bought two brand new Glocks (yes legally from a licensed dealer) and I kept getting asked what I had and did I want to trade. After awhile I would just laugh it off and I kept saying.. "NO!! I just got them. lol and besides they are Glocks why would I want to trade." ;)
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There is also ED who walks around and offers you an insulting price on what ever you have and explains how the dealers are going to rip you off and his is the best deal in here. I have met him at every show I brought some thing in to trade or sell.
I have to say you have hit the gun show terms right on. The last gun I look at a few weeks ago at a show had mint on the tag and had about 60% finish and the barrel face was rounded from years and years of holster carry.
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I just want to know where the gun shows with the $3.00 entry are? all the shows here are $8 and up... >:( >:(
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MAJER, when you purchase something, ask for the 8 bucks off it took for you to come in and buy their merchandise, works a lot of the time. ;D
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Those are some pretty accurate descriptions!
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I just want to know where the gun shows with the $3.00 entry are? all the shows here are $8 and up... >:( >:(
Yea, I guess they are 6 to 10 bucks now. But you get the point. The 3.00 show has the reload guy, the old holster guy, and the where the hell did you dig that up guy "oh..it's an antique" . And they can't figure out why nobody comes anymore ???
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Boy Marshalite did you hit the nail on the head! I have not seen a real to goodness honest person at a gun show for god knows when last one I went to a guy called himself a pistol smith and tried to sell me a .45 auto that he said was all Colt to bad it was on an Essex frame that did not match the slide and the botched up lowered ejection port and wobbled out feed ramp and wanted a whooping $1000.00 for his screw ups. So I do not go any more cause I gets to scared and my handS a start shakin and my knees start a knocking an I scream FEETS DON'T FAIL ME NOW!
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Boy Marshalite did you hit the nail on the head! I have not seen a real to goodness honest person at a gun show for god knows when last one I went to a guy called himself a pistol smith and tried to sell me a .45 auto that he said was all Colt to bad it was on an Essex frame that did not match the slide and the botched up lowered ejection port and wobbled out feed ramp and wanted a whooping $1000.00 for his screw ups. So I do not go any more cause I gets to scared and my handS a start shakin and my knees start a knocking an I scream FEETS DON'T FAIL ME NOW!
Too bad. Here in ND most are honest, mostly local FFls and collectors; guns are pretty good, $5 to get in (not 3 but then not 8 either). You do have to watch out for the charlatans, though.
One guy was buying and selling coins, and I had a certified gold coin - he basically offered me its value in gold, even though he showed me a newsletter that clearly showed its value as more than twice what he offered. Also bad mouthed the certification agency, tried to convince me that they were never accurate! Anything to make a buck, I guess.
Caveat emptor.
Not the same panache as molan labe, but it still works!