The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: cml03f on July 05, 2010, 07:16:53 PM
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Hi everyone new to the forum, I don't want this discussion to turn into a fight about what caliber is the best. I would like to hear what people would prefer. The question is in a concealed weapon would you rather have a 10+1 round capacity of 9mm, 6+1 of .40 s&w, or 5+1 round capacity of .45 acp. I own own several different guns but most of them are full size, I'm have been looking into something smaller to be able to carry and conceal in shorts and a t-shirt because it is dang hot 10 months out of the year here in florida. Would love to here everyone's opinion especially Rob and Michael.
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This is going to sound like a cop-out, but carry what you are comfortable with. I carry my XD in .45 (13 + 1) almost exclusively. I'm comfortable with it, and found a nice location/holster that conceals it extremely well. I've also found that patterned shirts (tie dye, striped, hawaiian. textured) can make printing a non-issue, allowing me to carry a service/full size pistol.
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I'm in shorts and t-shirts all summer long and I have a commander sized steel 1911 on my hip the whole time. I prefer the 1911 for several reasons: it's slim profile makes it easier to conceal, I shoot a 1911 better than my hi capacity 9mms, I like the additional safeties and have practiced enough that I deal with them without thinking, it makes a big hole in whatever I shoot. If I can't get myself out of a situation with nine rounds of .45acp I have serious doubts that I could do it with 15 rounds of 9mm. Shot placement rules.
The cop-out answer is the correct answer - carry what you are the most comfortable with (not what is the most comfortable to carry) and that you can shoot well. A wise man once said that carrying was supposed to be comforting, not comfortable.
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Glock 26 10+1 it is easy to conceal and I hardly notice I have it with me.
Been thinking of going to a 1911. .45 Knocks the crap out of them with the first shot.
Use to carry a S&W model 66 .357 a real man stopper. Hard to conceal.
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Usually carry a 1911, considering a Para P-14, best of both worlds ;D
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there is no replacement for displacement.
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Hey cml, as similar questions/posts like this come up, most folks also carry 1 if not 2 extra magazines for semi's, or some form of strip(s) for revolvers. I like Bianchi.
Caliber and capacity will ultimately be up to you, there is such a wide selection.
I tend to carry different things on different days, as I too live in the swamps of Fla. Your skills and abilities are also a major factor.
Some folks carry a snub, 5 or 6 shots, but they practice ALOT, and it works for them. Others want the added comfort of knowing they have 7,8,9-14+ rds. of "x" and it works for them also.
I don't feel undergunned when I carry my Taurus M85 loaded with 5 Rem GS +P .38's., or even my Kel-Tec P3AT .380 with Cor-Bon rds.
On other days, my FN9 or M+P .40 works, with Winchester SXT's.
Remember, 1 or 2 well placed "insert caliber", outweigh 10 or more rounds of misses, and those misses in an urban environment can include the potential of a bystander getting shot. You are responsible for every bullet.
Availability [You have to have it with you.]
Reliability [It has to 'go bang.']
Penetration [It has to reach important bits.]
Placement [You have to hit important bits.]
Welcome to DRTV.
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Usually carry a 1911, considering a Para P-14, best of both worlds ;D
Tom,
You might want to look at a Springfield GI hi-cap http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?version=11 (http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?version=11). Para quality and customer service doesn't seem to be what it once was.
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I've been doing this little dance. I carry a G-26 and love it. When it hits 90 degrees, I love it less. I tried a Bond in .357. Loved it. Wish I never traded it. YET.....do I trust myself with an SA no matter how small it is? as a BUG, yes. Primary carry? I don't know. Likewise, I have looked at a P32. Light, small reliable, but a .32. I might rebuy the Bond, I might go kel-tec. Odds are good though that I'll just stick with the Glock and wear long pants as I trust it (and as importantly trust me using it) completely.
FQ13
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I dont think you should worry about having "only" 6 rounds of 45 acp. Its gonna give you every chance to get home in probably 99.999% of situations that might arise.
Personally, I start to feel uncomfortable around the 5 round mark < or = .38 special. Yes, it is a capable round but I worry about having to face multiple attackers with only five rounds.
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Tom,
You might want to look at a Springfield GI hi-cap http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?version=11 (http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?version=11). Para quality and customer service doesn't seem to be what it once was.
I lean toward the Para for 2 reason's, They make their receivers in the US, and I did not know SA was making a Hi cap 1911.
I've also been considering the Rock Island Armory, granted it's made in the PI but I'm well pleased with my Government Model, and they are inexpensive.
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My thought process on this has changed over the years, I started out on the bigger bullet is better mindset. I have changed that mindset a bit as ammunition has gotten better and my training level is higher. In a lot of gun fights people tend to empty their gun before they realize their attacker is down. I would rather have a lot of bullets if I start to do that so as I might figure it out before the gun run dry! In my training classes I have noticed on thing about the 1911 guys, they reload a lot! In the shoot and move away from the target drills from contact distance, it wasn't much fun when the gun went dry! Good training can help fix that a bit, but not always. So mostly these days I carry a 12+1 M&P9c with Winchester 127gr +P+ LEO ammo and a 17rd backup mag. My BUG gun or ultra-concealment gun is the Kel-Tec PF9 with the same load carried in a Smart Carry Holster plus 2 spare mags. If I were you I take a look at the Smart Carry Holster, their made in central Florida. You can conceal a fairly large gun in one of those wearing a pair of loose mid thigh length shorts. The only reason I don't carry a full-size M&P in the smart carry is the beaver tail tends to stab me in the gut sitting. As I make my living behind a wheel, I found that to uncomfortable. If I were to take a dremel tool to the beaver tail on the full-size M&P it would probable fit more comfortably, but I don't want to do that right now. Maybe some day.
P.S. I really liked what Fatman had to say and the last part of TW's post. They covered some very important items!
P.S.S. Go visit the New Member Intro thread and introduce yourself. Welcome!
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My thought process on this subject would be more related to my situational and concealment needs. If I lived in the inner city of a large metropolis where Gangs roamed the streets en mass...then I think a higher capacity auto chambered in a full power cartridge would be in order.
As it is I live in a city of less than 200,000 and so far the incidents involving violent criminals has been more on the lines of individuals robbing etc... So my current needs revolve more around concealability and comfort for everyday carry.
I carry a firearm with me as is legal under current Missouri Castle Doctine as I have yet to obtain my CCW Permit.
A Smith and Wesson .357 Magnum Model 13 with a 3" Bbl and loaded with 125 grain Federal Hydrashocks is one of my favorites as I am a fan of Revolvers and not many will argue the effectiveness of this chambering....although I have found myself carrying the 1910 Browning my Father left me chambered in .380 ACP loaded with Winchester Silvertips quite alot lately. This little Pistol is extremely accurate and has proven to be very reliable with the Silvertip loadings....
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This is a useful thread. Me, I have erred on the side of more=better. Thus prefering a a P-11 over a PF-9 or now the G-26. My motivation being that if the SHTF, I never want to hear "click". Still, that balanced withh CCW means that I have a fat gun I need to compensate for in terms of clothing choice. I like my G-26 and am prepared to do this. But, I understand those who go the other way. Low cap in exchange for a low profile. At the end of the day, its about what you are comfortable with. Me, I still believe more = better. But, I will not say nay to a man who is comfortable with a two shot S/A .357.
FQ13
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Depends how I am going to dress and which gun I can conceal in those clothes. I work wearing a tucked in shirt, so every day, it's 5 rounds of .357 mag in my pocket. On days when I can run around with an untucked shirt, I carry one of my .45's (Partly because I no longer own a 9MM and never owned a .40). Some days I carry my GLOCK 30 (10 + 1 rounds of .45 ACP). Today it was My Rock Island Gov't model 1911 (8 + 1 .45 ACP). I'd overall be more comfortable with 5 or 6 or 7 rounds of .45 ACP than I would 13, 15, or 18 rounds of 9MM. The bigger the holes I put in the bad guy, the quicker he's likely to stop his attack. Ideally, MORE rounds of a BIGGER CALIBER is more appealing to me. Which is what made me want the .45 ACP GLOCK in the first place. But again, I can't always conceal it, especially considering how fat a double stack .45's grip is. So Ideal is out the window. One of these days, I'll get me a Kahr PM45 so I can have a good reliable .45 ACP pocket gun, but I'm not any less comfortable with my J-Frame .357 than I would be with a 45. I don't think I'd be uncomfortable with a .40 caliber pocket pistol, either. As It's a fairly easy round to shoot accurately (Or the G23 I shot seemed that way to me anyway.). Now if I had a gun so big I couldn't keep rounds on paper, I'd go to a smaller gun. Probably why I don't concealed carry my .45-70 BFR. ;D As it's been said already, the important thing is to carry the biggest gun that you can shoot well.
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When it comes to service calibers (.38SPL+P, 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP), there's not a lot of difference in performance. Carry the style of pistol you're comfortable with, and always carry a reload (not as much for during a fight, but for reloading your gun after the fight...)
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I just wanted to check back in and thank everyone for their insight. This is exactly what I wanted to see. I didn't want to start any kind of war on caliber I just wanted yo here what everyone's opinion was. I have been involved in shooting since I was around 6yrs old but carrying is something new to me so I felt I kind of needed to gather some information to make an informed decision. I think the guns I have narrowed it down to are either any of the Kahr PM's (9mm, 40 s&w, or 45 acp) either the taurus slim 740 or 709, and finally the ruger sr9c. I have never owned a ruger pistol (do own a taurus, walther, and xd) but I really like the ways these new guns look and I have heard nothing but amazing things about there trigger. The more I read from everyone, the safer i feel with possibly buying a 9mm (being a hunter I know the most important factor is shot placement).
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Maybe I hold these thoughts all to my own but I feel that we live in great times to own and carry a side arm. Why not choose a side arm around how it feels, how well it points and if you are lucky enough to have a gun store that allows a test drive than find out how well you can shoot it.
Grip angles and sights, slide heights and weight are all going to play a factor in how effective you are with said side arm. I would suggest you take some time to find out what fits your physical characterisics and than select that firearm.
Don't train down to the firearm, bring the firearm up to your standards.
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Your question is best answered by testing:
1. How are you going to carry, and what gun meets that style of carry;
2. What is the largest caliber you can accurately shoot?
Being able to carry the gun in a way that is comfortable and usable for you will narrow down your choices of firearm, caliber and capacity. Second, you need to choose a caliber and gun size and style that you can shoot accurately every time (more bigger bullets don't make up for misses!).
Between the movies, guys like us talking smart, and the marketing of gun and ammo manufacturers, there is a lot of misunderstanding and confusion out there. A revolver full of .22lr put in the chest of a bad guy will make him change his mind quicker than a bunch of .45's flying all over ... except into the body.
Go to the range and rent guns, buy the ammo and try out your friends guns, and talk to people like you that have tried them. Then, let us know what you pick ... and post the porn ;) We love gun porn!
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We love gun porn!
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=13014.msg171437#msg171437
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This not a simple question with an easy answer, many good points of view, especially, how do you dress, everyday, that is going to be major factor, as to how you carry and what you carry comfortably, within reason. Also, what do you do, all day, are you suit and tie, industrial, where you have to bend and carry things for folks, I am in a position where, I meet and greet, and sometimes crawl under cars in the parking lot to have a quick look at a problem, IWB does not work for that, a belly band would, and I have used one in the past, TIP, put the belly band around your chest, with the pistol accessible through your shirt sleeve. My choice is a pocket holster with a J frame 9mm and 2 reloads in my left pocket, now only 50' from me is my tool box, which has a Kahr K40 and 4 magazines and an SKS with folding stock and 50 rounds, then another 30' is my truck with my Glock 21 and 3 13 rd mags. My layered defense.
A teacher of mine does a drill, simple but puts things in perspective, the drill, is draw and fire all the ammo you have in your pistol for as long as you can, long after 1911's have gone quiet, the Glocks, Sigs, CZ's, M&P's are still shooting, his point, you get to fight longer, now he is from a military background, but does have a point.
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... long after 1911's have gone quiet, the Glocks, Sigs, CZ's, M&P's are still shooting, his point, you get to fight longer...
Now where did I leave that damn trophy at?
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Now where did I leave that damn trophy at?
We've been using it for a spittoon over in the corner, Glock-boy. :-*
M25 speaks good words, though. ;)
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long after 1911's have gone quiet, the Glocks, Sigs, CZ's, M&P's are still shooting, his point, you get to fight longer, now he is from a military background, but does have a point.
Unless, your stupid enough to live in a state with restrictions on magazine capacity, like I am! Then, we get no more than eleven rounds regardless and the criminals are free to use automatic weapons against us......gun laws here make so much sense........NOT!
I agree entirely with M25's opinion.
and when eric finds his trophy, I'll second that!
full disclosure, I carry a 1911 in the winter and a .357 revolver in the summer. Center mass matters, all others pay cash!
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We've been using it for a spittoon over in the corner, Glock-boy. :-*
M25 speaks good words, though. ;)
What ya got in yer pocket Peg.....me thinks a G26.....
;D
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I've been weighing this myself as of late. I decided to carry a small, light 1911 .45acp. I can shoot it accurately, but it does have horrible recoil. I shot it in a class, so I put a good number of rounds through it. I have a 9mm that's smaller and lighter that carries the same number of shots, so I picked the 24oz gun over the 17oz gun.
Of course, you can't have too many pocket pistols unless you're Meryl Stryfe.
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What ya got in yer pocket Peg.....me thinks a G26.....
;D
In my pocket? A NAA mini .22. ;D
Next to it in a SERPA? A Glock 27 (9+1) ......wish I'da bought a 30. ;) ;) ;)
1911 man at heart, but I'm not a hypocrite.....I just like poking at Eric from time to time. ;D
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We've been using it for a spittoon over in the corner, Glock-boy. :-*
M25 speaks good words, though. ;)
Now where did I leave that damn trophy at?
IMAO!!!
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1911 man at heart, but I'm not a hypocrite.....I just like poking at Eric from time to time. ;D
I understand.....I'd buy a G26 myself if I could find one here in the Peoples Republic...
"Did I say that!" (in my best Urkle voice!)
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I understand.....I'd buy a G26 myself if I could find one here in the Peoples Republic...
"Did I say that!" (in my best Urkle voice!)
In all seriousness, and pertaining to the thread, the reason I went with the G27 at the time was the balance/trade-off between caliber and capacity. With a Pearce grip extension, I could have 10+1 of a .40 caliber round in a light-weight, concealable gun. I carry the standard length mag in the gun so it doesn't print, giving me 10 in the heater. I then have two mags with the +1 extensions giving me 20 more in the ready room.
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In all seriousness, and pertaining to the thread, the reason I went with the G27 at the time was the balance/trade-off between caliber and capacity. With a Pearce grip extension, I could have 10+1 of a .40 caliber round in a light-weight, concealable gun. I carry the standard length mag in the gun so it doesn't print, giving me 10 in the heater. I then have two mags with the +1 extensions giving me 20 more in the ready room.
Peg have you considered trading those extra mags for some full-size 15 round mags?
I carry a standard 12 round mag in my M&P9c and full-size 17 round mags for a reloading!
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Peg have you considered trading those extra mags for some full-size 15 round mags?
I carry a standard 12 round mag in my M&P9c and full-size 17 round mags for a reloading!
I have 3 of the G22 Mags that I also use with my Kel-Tec Sub rifle. I have carried them as back-ups to my G27 before, but the extra length caused them not to fit well in my pocket (I don't carry them on my belt). There is a company out there that makes a slip-over adapter that goes over the longer mags to help with griping so you don't pinch your little finger when firing.
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I have 3 of the G22 Mags that I also use with my Kel-Tec Sub rifle. I have carried them as back-ups to my G27 before, but the extra length caused them not to fit well in my pocket (I don't carry them on my belt). There is a company out there that makes a slip-over adapter that goes over the longer mags to help with griping so you don't pinch your little finger when firing.
I've got the extensions from Grip X on mine. and DeSantis makes a pocket holster for mags that keeps the Mag in your pocket at a 45º angle. It works pretty good for me with loose slacks. The length of the mag does leave a bump in my pocket, but it just looks like a set of keys or something like that.
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I've got the extensions from Grip X on mine. and DeSantis makes a pocket holster for mags that keeps the Mag in your pocket at a 45º angle. It works pretty good for me with loose slacks. The length of the mag does leave a bump in my pocket, but it just looks like a set of keys or something like that.
Grip X...thanks, I couldn't remember.
I'll check out the DeSantis pocket holster too.
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I've come full circle. I used to preach .45 acp.
Then I switched to the wonder-round (40 S&W) in the mid '90s.
After watching thousands of students train and studying the empirical evidence, I think that 9mm is the best choice for 95+% of the people carrying a semi-auto for personal defense. (the other 5% is a small group of elite level shooters who really control the larger calibers incredibly well in defensive guns).
I have come to the belief that "one shot stops" are significantly more likely to be psychological than physical in an actual fight and the badguy can't tell the difference between .38/9/40/45 when he takes that hit. If he stops because he's scared or shocked, he stops. Yes, the larger rounds can do more physical damage individually, but the vast majority of defensive situations call for multiple rounds and everyone is going to be able to fire multiple rounds strings of fire faster under the same deviation control from a given gun in 9mm than from the same given gun in a more powerful caliber.
I am heavily invested in .40 S&W handguns, but if I were starting my collection over again today, I'd never buy one for personal defense.
-RJP
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I am heavily invested in .40 S&W handguns, but if I were starting my collection over again today, I'd never buy one for personal defense.
-RJP
That's a bold statement Rob, and forgive me for questioning, but I am specifically interested in why?
LEO's, State Troopers, multiple Sheriff Dept's, use their .40 S&W for SD on duty, the round hasn't changed, the ballistics are what they are.....on paper,....more effective than 9mm...
So, in your professional opinion, makes a "never buy one for SD" such a blanket opinion. You know the round and platforms used. They are effective.
For those that choose, like my full size M+P in .40, recoil is not an issue, I practice frequently, and of course can improve, however,
I feel comfortable with it, can utilize it in an SD situation in my home, and was just curious and interested, in your expansion of that post.
Thank you,
tw.
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I'd like to hear your reasoning as well.
I'm no fan of the .40, but I really don't have any facts other than it is relatively new.
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Since I am up way past bedtime, and sure Rob is getting is beauty sleep, I will just give my opinion and you can find it MB downrange radio # I don't know which. To me, it is the recoil impulse, the time it gets the slide to function, return to battery and get back on target, it is not the force of the recoil, just this abnormal waiting for things to happen vs a 9mm or .45, now this is full house defense ammo, not custom tailored for competition, I still have one, a Kahr M40, the grips a so small you get complete control of the pistol, it is heavy, and it shoots so accurately I just want to keep it. I shot head to head with a G27, and I outshot it, except for the additional 4 rds the 27 had, remember, more rounds, the longer you can fight.
I dislike my Benelli M1 super 90 for the same reason, the recoil impulse is very weird to me, technically it may be faster, but my 1187 Remington I can start from the ready and clear 5 plates in 1.8 seconds all day long. The Benelli makes a fine hunting shotgun though. Maybe my 1st choice for Turkey and of going after hogs in thick brush. Trusty over and under, is 1st choice for birds.
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Bring enough gun Bring ONLY enough gun.
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Bring enough gun Bring ONLY enough gun.
Hell, I'd carry a shotgun but people would look at me funny...
;D
I was comfortable with a .45 thirty five years ago, I'm comfortable with one today. Looking for a pocket 9mm for hot summer days but 10 round mags here are the max....unless you're lucky enough to find a pre-ban like my daughter did in her Sig P228.
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I'd like to hear your reasoning as well.
I'm no fan of the .40, but I really don't have any facts other than it is relatively new.
+1
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Hell, I'd carry a shotgun but people would look at me funny...
;D
I was comfortable with a .45 thirty five years ago, I'm comfortable with one today. Looking for a pocket 9mm for hot summer days but 10 round mags here are the max....unless you're lucky enough to find a pre-ban like my daughter did in her Sig P228.
I think Rob is trying to say that at some point you have enough horsepower, dont mess up your marksmanship by going too big.
Think about it in terms of a hunting.... Why shoot a deer at 50 yards with a .338 when a 30-30 or a .243 will get the job done just fine..... likewise, why carry a .500 S&W as a CCW when a .38 special will get the job done just fine?
Exit Question: Rob, are you still all worked up about the Bren 10 like you once were?
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I think Rob is trying to say that at some point you have enough horsepower, dont mess up your marksmanship by going too big.
Rob is welcome to his opinion.
to qoute FQ....YMMV.
And, I've never hunted deer with anything other than a .30-30...never need anything else.
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Rob is welcome to his opinion.
Which one? The one about him never buying a .40 for personal defense or the one that puts you in the 5% group of elite level shooters? ;D ;D ;D
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Which one? The one about him never buying a .40 for personal defense or the one that puts you in the 5% group of elite level shooters? ;D ;D ;D
The latter.....I can shoot "minute of trashcan lid" all day long, that's all I care about. Never saw a bad guy with a target on his chest.
Age and Wisdom........vs. youth and education...
I'll say no more...
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The latter.....I can shoot "minute of trashcan lid" all day long, that's all I care about. Never saw a bad guy with a target on his chest.
Age and Wisdom Low speed; high drag........vs. youth and education... High speed; low drag
I'll say no more...
Now thats funny right there ;D
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I'd like to hear your reasoning as well.
I'm no fan of the .40, but I really don't have any facts other than it is relatively new.
I wouldn't call 20 years on the market as new. IMHO it's that the improvements in ammo for the 9mm and guns for the .45acp have narrowed the gains you got with the .40S&W.
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I just got rid of the second 40 S&W I've had, Sig 226. Very nice pistol but only held 12 rounds, which should be plenty, but when you can get for instance a XD 45 that holds 13 rounds and similar in size I have to reconsider my options. Glock 19 for instance is tiny in comparison but holds 15 rounds, there are many other options today. To me the 40's just seem to be designed after the 9mm version of the same gun, (glock and xd). Doesn't the XD 40 only hold 12 rounds and the 45 13. Just my thoughts
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Slightly tangentially, it might be the gun. I took a pistol course where we shot every students' gun. The idea was that all guns are more similar than you'd think. And, the guns in the course did vary from the squeeze-cocker HK P7, to Sigs, Glocks, 1911s and more. And yes, there were similar to shoot, and I wouldn't mind owning and shooting any one of those. However, I bought a Beretta 92 once, and HATED it. Like M25 mentions above, it just shot weird to me and seemed to have more recoil than all other 9mm I'd shot. I sold it a few months later. I saw someone post saying that the XDm has a high bore axis. Does that, plus the lightweight frame equal higher muzzle flip? Would that make it worse to shoot? Is the slide on the 92 lighter than normal?
I may have to try what is mentioned: and shoot some qualifiers with a 9mm vs a 45acp. I recently bought a .45acp that's the same model as a 9mm I've owned and enjoyed for years. I wonder if the 9mm would outshoot, both in time and/or accuracy, the 45acp? How many cycles would I have to shoot to get an answer that removes most randomness?
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I wouldn't call 20 years on the market as new. IMHO it's that the improvements in ammo for the 9mm and guns for the .45acp have narrowed the gains you got with the .40S&W.
20 years isn't even well tested yet Guns. 9mm and .45 ACP are both over a hundred years old, .357 magnum is 75, even the 44 Magnum is over 50
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Not speaking for RP, but what I got out of his post was that he was not bashing the .40....just that from what he has seen in his training classes, most shooters shoot the 9mm better than bigger calibers (excepting highly trained pros), and for SD, you should shoot what you shoot best. Therefore, if he were starting over, he would stick with the 9mm.
I may have misinterpreted, but that was just my take on RP's post.....IMHO....and YMMV.
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So, does full circle for RP mean he's back to 45acp or 9mm?
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So, does full circle for RP mean he's back to 45acp or 9mm?
The 40 was designed to maximize the caliber (stopping power) of the 45, and the speed of the 9mm, more LE agencies, have adopted the .40 of "any brand" than any other caliber. What do they know?
So, for those that are comfortable with the .40, including a myriad of LE Dept's across the country, it goes back to what one is confident in shooting consistently.
Recoil for those that train with a .40, is no different than a .38 or .327 Magnum,,,,9mm, .45,.....whatever caliber.
12g maybe too much for some, so a .20g is an option,....difference at SD ranges? ......Hardly noticeable.
I was just curious as to a blanket post (from someone "heavily invested in .40") to say they would NEVER have one, if given a chance to start over.
Sure, I respect RP, his credentials and exp. Just was requesting an elaboration to his reasoning. If it's his opinion, fine, we all have ours., and am still just curious.
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I'm with TW here, but I figure RP is probably just as busy as MB .
I will be waiting to see what his reasoning is when he gets the chance.
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Go to Robs facebook sight, yes he is a busy, busy man. Check out his pics too, lot of good stuff, some video too.
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Not too busy to still check in here... :)
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I thought I had stated my reasons in the first post I made guys, but the points have certainly been made.. I'll sum up:
-I believe 9mm is "enough" the overwhelming majority of the time.
-Everyone can shoot 9mm better than they can shoot .40 AND you get more bullets in the same size package.
-I've seen very few people who have such a small variance in the way they shoot they .40 and the 9mm that I believe they truly benefit from carrying the .40
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Recoil certainly IS different from caliber to caliber. Wishing away physics won't change that.
You can put more time into learning to shoot a bigger caliber, but I don't think it is near worth it for the average person who shows up to a training course (which is way above the average CCW holder, which is way above the average gun owner...).
Why doesn't anyone ever want to talk about Wisdom AND Education ?? ;)
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-Rob
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about getting more rounds of 9 vs 40.
for those of us in a state with restricted capicity, that means basicly nothing. also how many round do you actually need, the diffrence between a glock 17 and a glock 22 is only 2 round with the standard mag. with the optional is the same capcity. [i know you like glocks]
ps damn bill gates, my shift keys will not work and its a windows issue.
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Not too busy to still check in here... :)
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I thought I had stated my reasons in the first post I made guys, but the points have certainly been made.. I'll sum up:
-I believe 9mm is "enough" the overwhelming majority of the time.
-Everyone can shoot 9mm better than they can shoot .40 AND you get more bullets in the same size package.
-I've seen very few people who have such a small variance in the way they shoot they .40 and the 9mm that I believe they truly benefit from carrying the .40
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Recoil certainly IS different from caliber to caliber. Wishing away physics won't change that.
You can put more time into learning to shoot a bigger caliber, but I don't think it is near worth it for the average person who shows up to a training course (which is way above the average CCW holder, which is way above the average gun owner...).
Why doesn't anyone ever want to talk about Wisdom AND Education ?? ;)
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-RobVery simple Rob, Wisdom and Education DON'T GO BOOM!
Seriously, though, I love the 45 acp round. I like the idea of it, the feel of shooting it and everything else. Where your capacity is limited there's still a difference. in NJ I can have 15 rounds- ok for 9mm but there aren't many 45s that hold 15 rounds that I know of.
So if wisdom and education ARE really important (read "skills and shot placement") then aren't I better off with, say 6 rounds of manstopper and some skills than I am spraying 15 rounds of 9mm?
There's really no answer to this debate. If the gun is too big or too heavy to carry you can't defend yourself.
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I'm in possession of my father's B-29 crew manual from WWII. In the section on the 1911A1, it says that a hit on an enemy's hand with the mighty .45 will knock him down due to "hydrostatic pressure."
There are still people who believe that nonsense, but today most people know that it contradicts both the laws of physics and observed behavior.
Yet this idea that the .45 is a "manstopper", and nothing else is, persists. It needs to go the way of the dodo bird.
The reality is that a caliber change measured in tenths of an inch doesn't stop bad guys. What DOES stop bad guys are rapid, multiple, combat-accurate hits. The .45ACP's minor (and increasingly debatable) benefits are outweighed by the negative effects on a shooter's ability to do that.
It's not about capacity, it's about the fact that no matter how well you shoot a .45, you're almost certainly going to shoot a 9mm better - the tired "spray and pray" cliche notwithstanding.
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Thanks Rob,
How about I pick on your education and exp more?
quote:
-Everyone can shoot 9mm better than they can shoot .40 AND you get more bullets in the same size package.,.
Okay, so if someone trains with a larger caliber, with less "capacity", becomes consistent with it,....."stepping down" to a smaller caliber with less recoil, would make the shooter more consistent? Like going from a .357 to a .38? .38 to a .25?
I ask this for two reasons:
1) I rotate what I carry, somedays, a "leetle" Kel-Tec, .380, somedays, my .38 snub, or my FN9, even my M+P.40.
QUESTION: Why exclusively excel in one caliber and not others? (For those that have several calibers available)..
2) I'm not talking record Miculek speed or IDPA super times and trophies.
QUESTION: Wouldn't the ability to be confident, accurate and consistent, regardless of caliber, be a good thing in an SD situation?
Thanks again for your input Rob. I'm just on the neverending quest for more "wisdom & education" as an "average" shooter.
;)
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everyone can shoot a Ruger mark III better than any 9mm so why not carry a 22lr over all others
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I've heard the .45 ACP can spin a man around on a dime as well. Unfortunately, an off center hit on a bowling pin with the same round can leave it spinning on the table. ;D ;D ;D I think that's empirical evidence to the contrary.
I have little doubt that enough of any caliber targeted into the center mass of a living, breathing mammal will do the job. I also concede that are times when more may be better than larger or heavier. For me it's about what is comfy, gives me a warm fuzzy and what I believe works for me! I first shot a 1911 when I was a young man, it's as comfortable today as it was then. Caliber arguments are pretty commonplace around here and I don't expect that to change.
There are a few folks on this forum, though probably not inclined to brag about it, who have had the unfortunate requirement to actually shoot another human being and I would defer to their experience in the matter.
I hope that I never have the need to experience what that feels like but I'm prepared none the less.
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Someone and i am not going to take the time to research, you guys certainly may, decided a one shot stop, all the time, consisted of a tennis ball sized projectile weighing 2lbs, at 800fps, sounds about right to me. LIke the bean bag round, only shaped and harder. The big bean bag round, not the 12 guage.
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Well Timothy, I agree with both you and Rob. I started on my uncles .45 at about 15 yrs old and shot .45 almost exclusively from that point. I'm fast and accurate with it. Better than 9mm at this point for a simple reason - my body is totally tuned to .45 after many years of shooting it on a regular basis. I know where the sights are, where they will be after I fire, and when to fire again on recovery to poke multiple holes on target rapidly - combat shooting. I can point fire, aim fire, fire with both eyes open, either eye only, two hands, strong or weak, etc. I know about how much to lead moving targets with the .45. I (comparatively) suck in 9mm for the same reason - I shot 45 almost exclusively all my life. For me to start shooting 9 now is the same waste of time others would see trying to master 45. To quote Jake Roedel in Ride with the Devil, "It ain't right and it ain't wrong. It just is."
As for 9 for most people, I agree for the reasons Rob pointed out. Let's face it, most people get just enough instruction/practice to be comfortable with a firearm and be reasonably proficient. Many on this board do not fall into this category, and I'm sure your proficiency in your chosen caliber is well above average.
As an aside, seek as much professional training as you can afford and then PRACTICE what you are taught. Shooting is a degradable skill. Aim for excellence, make defensive shooting a muscle memory activity and when your body starts moving up the condition scale, you'll not regret it.
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Thanks Rob.
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Okay, so if someone trains with a larger caliber, with less "capacity", becomes consistent with it,....."stepping down" to a smaller caliber with less recoil, would make the shooter more consistent? Like going from a .357 to a .38? .38 to a .25?
I ask this for two reasons:
1) I rotate what I carry, somedays, a "leetle" Kel-Tec, .380, somedays, my .38 snub, or my FN9, even my M+P.40.
QUESTION: Why exclusively excel in one caliber and not others? (For those that have several calibers available)..
2) I'm not talking record Miculek speed or IDPA super times and trophies.
QUESTION: Wouldn't the ability to be confident, accurate and consistent, regardless of caliber, be a good thing in an SD situation?
Training resources are always limited. Everyone has only so much time, money, access to range, interest, etc... Personally. I think there are more important ways to spend time than trying to master control over every type of gun and caliber. Even if you huge amounts of time for training, there are other things we need to train: unarmed responses, medical, awareness, mindset, etc. And, ...again... no matter how well you learn to shoot the .40, the overwhelming majority of the population will shoot the 9mm noticeably better.
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no matter how well you learn to shoot the .40, the overwhelming majority of the population will shoot the 9mm noticeably better.
And thats the major take away from this whole discussion.
I've said it before and I'll say it again.... I really value the professionals that moderate this forum. With all those other forums, it can be really tough to wade through the internet commandos and mall ninjas to really learn something from the discussions. However, the professionals that we have here really bring a world of knowledge and experience that simply amazes me time and again. When Rob says something (and I'm not ass kissing here) we should all take note.
Yes, you may shoot a .40 well, but when someone with as much shooting experience and who has had as much experience watching students shoot says something as difinitve as the above statement.... we should all probably step back from our preconceived notions and find out if we really do shoot any given caliber as well as we think we do.
Submitted by ericire12 - who really wishes that The Pincus would stop talking me out of a 1911 each time I start thinking about buying one. ;D
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Following Rob's statement that the majority of the populace will shoot 9mm better than 40 (which I agree with) then since I'm much more accurate with my 45 than with 9mm, does it logically follow that I should stick with the 45? To me that makes sense.
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Eric, you can always buy one "Just because" ;D
From Rob's post:
"there are other things we need to train: unarmed responses, medical, awareness, mindset, etc."
Big + 10 ! My heart has attacked me twice as often as the local "ne'er do well's".
Nitro is now part of my daily carry :-\
( Yes, I rattle when I walk ;D )
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I value all opinions, as you can learn something (good or bad) from everyone........
My own personal 'bottom line' opinion is still...... shoot 'em all, but depend on what YOU shoot best.
*Eric, a good 1911 is always a fine thing to have around....even if not for SD, they are wonderful guns. :D
**Tom, I sometimes squeak when I walk....that's when it's time to break out the WD-40..... ;D ;D
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I value all opinions, as you can learn something (good or bad) from everyone........
My own personal 'bottom line' opinion is still...... shoot 'em all, but depend on what YOU shoot best.
*Eric, a good 1911 is always a fine thing to have around....even if not for SD, they are wonderful guns. :D
**Tom, I sometimes squeak when I walk....that's when it's time to break out the WD-40..... ;D ;D
I totally agree, for the average person who maybe hasn't shot much the 9 is the easiest and cheapest to train with. My wife for example doesn't like the .40 and is very comfortable with the 9 so other than the .22 all she shoots with is the 9 so she can be as proficient as possible. Myself, I've shot mostly .45 for nearly 30 years, I'm comfortable with it, I don't have recoil issues, any muzzle flip isn't really perceived because I just instinctively know where my front sight is. I do train more with my 9's these days because I was carrying them in a pretty equal amount due to work and the 9 has become so much easier to shoot. Because if this dynamic of either .9 or .45 in my house the .40 was the odd gun out. I don't have anything against the .40 personally but didn't see a need to keep any and also have to stock yet another caliber of ammo (still 2 boxes of .40 left if you need any). I had 4 pistols in .40, I sold 3 and gave one to my dad (my Glock 27 to accompany the 22 he already owned). It was the best move for me. We have gunvaults at strategic points in our home and they all have 9's in them for my wife's ease of use. The one on my nightstand has a couple .45's and everything else (.22's and revolvers etc.) lives in the big safe.
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All other things being equal, for EVERYONE 9mm is easier than .40 when you're talking about multiple shot strings... its physics... don't know how else to say it guys. Some people and some platforms may make the difference negligible, but it must be there.
The idea that you "shoot X caliber more accurately than X" (obviously talking about defensive accuracy here, not Camp Perry) is either in your head or a factor of the platform (eg- comparing accuracy from a tuned 1911 .45 with a good trigger and a H&K DOA USP in 9mm is apples and oranges...). It is also possibly missing the point that we are talking about multiple shots, so accuracy is only one factor, recoil management is what I am focusing on (given that .38, .357, 9mm, .40, .45, 10mm and .44 are all capable of being fired accurately in a self defense situation) ... based on the empirical evidence.
With that, I'm going to bow out of this one and probably lock the thread down in a day or so if no new info is added.
Good discussion and, I think VERY THOROUGH... we're close to a "'nuff said" on all fronts.
-RJP
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But we never got around to wisdom and education.
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Wisdom is available by the fifth, I'm told...
Tend to agree with Rob on this...my own personal strategy is multiple hits, and I can et them faster with a 9 than a .40. OTOH, when I'm in a situation with an enhanced threat level, I go to a .45, either a 1911 lightweight Commander or an FHP-45.
Michael B