The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: ms1212 on July 05, 2010, 10:42:48 PM
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So sad these police officers were killed in the line of duty. The Arkansas Game and Fish Commission Wildlife Officer, Michael Neal, put his life on the line and saved many lives. Within the last few week West Memphis approved the buying of M-4's for their police. One of my friends on our SWAT team trained with Brandon Paudert(the officer in the first traffic stop)in Little Rock. Again there are no "routine" traffic stops. The 16 year old killer looked more like 13. My prayers are with all affected.
Videos of West Memphis cop killings:
http://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/2089972-Videos-of-West-Memphis-cop-killings-surface/
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Three good lessons
1) There is no such thing as a kid with a gun, there is only a gun.
2) Control your environment. To all those who bitch about the cops wanting your legal CCW at a traffic stop, this is why. Its no big deal. Give them the gun, slowly and how they want it, then talk the thing through.
3) Any one who wants to be the anti-gov zorro, this is how it ends, thirty of them and two of you. Do the math. It was over before it began. The only variable was the body count.
FQ13
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Three good lessons
1) There is no such thing as a kid with a gun, there is only a gun.
2) Control your environment. To all those who bitch about the cops wanting your legal CCW at a traffic stop, this is why. Its no big deal. Give them the gun, slowly and how they want it, then talk the thing through.
3) Any one who wants to be the anti-gov zorro, this is how it ends, thirty of them and two of you. Do the math. It was over before it began. The only variable was the body count.
FQ13
FQ that part is a bunch of bull. My gun is far more safe in my holster than some cop playing with it! I seriously doubt those cops asked if their were any AK's in the van and whether it would have done any good if they had. Someone want's to be the anit-gov zorro, they aint going to tell the cop they got it in the first place. Second Their going to do what they want to do. If that means shooting cops, their going to shoot cops. Can't stop that, only thing you can do it be better than they are! Unfortunately for those two Arkansas troopers they weren't. The BG's got the drop on them and it cost them their lives. That crap is like the Illinois State Trooper on Tom Gresham show the other day who said he was OK with CCW but he didn't want legal CCW holders to be able to carry anything big enough to penetrate his vest. "LEGAL CCW HOLDERS" The legal CCW's aren't the one's to worry about it's the illegal ones! I guess that means he was okay with gang bangers carrying stuff big enough to penetrate his vest! About 10% of the general population are criminals. Less than 1% of those who are cops, CCW holders, military and people like them, who have gone though everything to get where they are, are going to be criminals. Seriously you really don't have to worry much about the legal ones!
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FQ that part is a bunch of bull. My gun is far more safe in my holster than some cop playing with it! I seriously doubt those cops asked if their were any AK's in the van and whether it would have done any good if they had. Someone want's to be the anit-gov zorro, they aint going to tell the cop they got it in the first place. Second Their going to do what they want to do. If that means shooting cops, their going to shoot cops. Can't stop that, only thing you can do it be better than they are! Unfortunately for those two Arkansas troopers they weren't. The BG's got the drop on them and it cost them their lives. That crap is like the Illinois State Trooper on Tom Gresham show the other day who said he was OK with CCW but he didn't want legal CCW holders to be able to carry anything big enough to penetrate his vest. "LEGAL CCW HOLDERS" The legal CCW's aren't the one's to worry about it's the illegal ones! I guess that means he was okay with gang bangers carrying stuff big enough to penetrate his vest! About 10% of the general population are criminals. Less than 1% of those who are cops, CCW holders, military and people like them, who have gone though everything to get where they are, are going to be criminals. Seriously you really don't have to worry much about the legal ones!
I'm not arguing Guns. I'm just saying this. If I'm the cop on the scene, I want to know if there guns in your possesion. If so, I want them out of your hands and in plain view. After that, I will write you your speeding ticket or whatever and send you on your way. No infringement on the 2A. Just being aware of guns on the scene. Personally, if the cops had asked both BGs to step out, this whole thing would not have come to pass, and no one's rights would have been violated.
FQ13
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I'm not arguing Guns. I'm just saying this. If I'm the cop on the scene, I want to know if there guns in your possesion. If so, I want them out of your hands and in plain view. After that, I will write you your speeding ticket or whatever and send you on your way. No infringement on the 2A. Just being aware of guns on the scene. Personally, if the cops had asked both BGs to step out, this whole thing would not have come to pass, and no one's rights would have been violated.
FQ13
And I disagree with that to many cops don't know how to handle firearms and I don't want them screwing around with mine!
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If I'm the cop on the scene Govt, I want to know if there guns in your possesion. If so, I want them out of your hands and in plain view. After that, I will write you your speeding ticket or whatever and send you on your way. No infringement on the 2A. Just being aware of guns on the scene.
FQ13
Re-read it now and see how it sounds to ya. You are just applying liberal gun control logic to a traffic stop. There is no reason what so ever for a cop to confiscate a law abiding citizen's gun.
If it is dangerous during the duration of a traffic stop, then by that same flawed logic it is equally dangerous during all times of concealed carry.... therefore all concealed carry is a danger to society and to law enforcement.
Quaker, you are wrong.
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Re-read it now and see how it sounds to ya. You are just applying liberal gun control logic to a traffic stop. There is no reason what so ever for a cop to confiscate a law abiding citizen's gun.
If it is dangerous during the duration of a traffic stop, then by that same flawed logic it is equally dangerous during all times of concealed carry.... therefore all concealed carry is a danger to society and to law enforcement.
Quaker, you are wrong.
I'm as skepticall of "the man" at least, as the next guy. But as a cop, do you want a gun at your back? I'm not saying cuff the guy and confiscate the weapon. Just "place the pistol on the seat and come to the back of the car. You owe the Governor $99.95 for speeding and have a nice night". How have your rights been violated? Seriously man, there is a common sense middle ground where you don't lose possesion of your weapon and the cop doesn't have to worry about getting capped. It can be done politely and with no Con Law issues.
FQ13
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I'm as skepticall of "the man" at least, as the next guy. But as a cop, do you want a gun at your back? I'm not saying cuff the guy and confiscate the weapon. Just "place the pistol on the seat and come to the back of the car. You owe the Governor $99.95 for speeding and have a nice night". How have your rights been violated? Seriously man, there is a common sense middle ground where you don't lose possesion of your weapon and the cop doesn't have to worry about getting capped. It can be done politely and with no Con Law issues.
FQ13
FQ any time a gun is removed from a holster it is possible for the trigger to be pull how ever inadvertently. If it stays in the holster you can not pull the trigger! It will not go bang accidentally! If your in a state where you have to notify the LEO then do so but it they are smart the will leave it where it is!! "keep your hands where I can see them and don't make any sudden move toward your gun and we'll all be fine!"
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I'm not arguing Guns. I'm just saying this. If I'm the cop on the scene, I want to know if there guns in your possesion. If so, I want them out of your hands and in plain view. After that, I will write you your speeding ticket or whatever and send you on your way. No infringement on the 2A. Just being aware of guns on the scene. Personally, if the cops had asked both BGs to step out, this whole thing would not have come to pass, and no one's rights would have been violated.
FQ13
believe me, if they're going to shoot you, they aren't going to wait.... sure officer, I'll just pull this illegal gun out of my belt so I can't shoot you. what makes you think that someone that intends to kill the officer will A) admit to having the gun B) hand the gun over C) wait long enough for the officer to even ask before they open fire? gee, since you were so courteous and professional I'll just hand it to you while you handcuff me.
DUH!
as said earlier, it's safer in it's happy place than in the hands of someone that is not familiar with the gun.
Deepwater
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I would say this was much more of a loss of focus by the officers. They forgot all about the creep in the van and let all the attention on the driver.
I've been stopped with 3 other armed folks by a KY State trooper coming back from a training class. I handed him my CCW and license. He asked if there was any other any other weapons on folks and every one said yes. His reply was just keep your hands in plain sight and we'll all be happy. No threats , no attempt to disarm anyone. Very proffesional. He wrote me a warning and we went down the road. I have also been with Phiily cops who would have called out the SWAT team if they had four armed men in front of them. The difference was the trooper was prepared and those yahoos were not.
I tend to think dis-arming or securing the weapon adds risk if the person is wanted for a traffic only violation. Folks stuff pistols in pockets and flopping loose between seats. It surprising more of those idiots don't shoot themselves.
Most cops are not gun folks and their gunhandling shows it. Hand them a PPK or Tomcat and it would 50/50 if they could unload it safely.
Best use of a pickup truck I've seen in a while.
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believe me, if they're going to shoot you, they aren't going to wait.... sure officer, I'll just pull this illegal gun out of my belt so I can't shoot you. what makes you think that someone that intends to kill the officer will A) admit to having the gun B) hand the gun over C) wait long enough for the officer to even ask before they open fire? gee, since you were so courteous and professional I'll just hand it to you while you handcuff me.
DUH!
as said earlier, it's safer in it's happy place than in the hands of someone that is not familiar with the gun.
Deepwater
Look
I did 4 years of ROTC (got offered a buyout, took it, thus didn't serve, so not a vet or pretending to be). Still, though, our training was obviously very different from cops one constant was, either the weapon is in plain sight, on the ground, or in your control or its a threat. That's just the way we were trained and even though there are good reasons (maybe even compelling ones) not to fall back on it, its still kind of the way I'm wired. Discuss amongst yourselves.
FQ13
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There are some good lessons and discussions here, I won't armchair for a second, I was not there, and I hate what happened, as to gunsrus, I have been a range officer too long, to disagree about LE gunhandling, some are great, most are not, the less gunhandling done, the safer all will be, got stopped and the LE saw my guncases, he inspected them and was ok until he came to my Contender pistol, " how do you open this action?" I explained it to him, but he was having great difficulty, I offered to open it for him, and in his command voice said NO, I knew it was empty but let him struggle through it. When carrying I always let the LE know, and follow his or her commands to the letter. Most just say, keep it there and keep your hands where I can see them. Of course this is exactly what I do. Allowing the kid to stay in the van, of course now hind sight is 20/20, that could have saved the day for the 2 LE's, but who knows what crimes they had in mind once the ticket was written. + 1,000,000 on the game warden disabling the van, and then getting a better position, looked like his windshield was toast, and I don't know if from within or from without, last part with all the LE's approaching the van, with no cover, well that is like looking for the wounded Lion, better man than I am Gunga Din.
I feel at least a hundred LE's are watching this and LEARNING, to bad 2 guys paid the price. Rip, and God Bless the Families.
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a very tragic incident
I can see how it would Help LEO's in training however why do the media feel they have the need to show the video's when stuff like that happens
it would not help the families and friends at all
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a very tragic incident
I can see how it would Help LEO's in training however why do the media feel they have the need to show the video's when stuff like that happens
it would not help the families and friends at all
It wasn't the media that wanted them shown, it was the cops. They didn't want the headline to be "16 year Old Gunned Down in his Father's Arms by 400 Cops in a Wallmart Parking Lot". LEOs (correctly in my view), released this to answer questions before they were asked.
FQ13
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a very tragic incident
I can see how it would Help LEO's in training however why do the media feel they have the need to show the video's when stuff like that happens
it would not help the families and friends at all
It is public information in the US, and I think it should be available as it doesn't show the LEO's being actually shot. But more important I think its important for people to see. If they only had it in the LEO academy's not enough people will get to see it, and their is something for everyone to learn from this!
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It is public information in the US, and I think it should be available as it doesn't show the LEO's being actually shot. But more important I think its important for people to see. If they only had it in the LEO academy's not enough people will get to see it, and their is something for everyone to learn from this!
The Frontsight training facility used a similar video in one of it's plugs for training that may have prevented the officers death and caught a lot of flak for using it.
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It wasn't the media that wanted them shown, it was the cops. They didn't want the headline to be "16 year Old Gunned Down in his Father's Arms by 400 Cops in a Wallmart Parking Lot". LEOs (correctly in my view), released this to answer questions before they were asked.
FQ13
I think you hit it on the head.
I think these videos can be a very powerful training tool for other officers and students of self defense. You can see how things develop before the assault.
Tom Givens use to say read the crime page in your local newspaper. Review how the crime could have been avoided. Think about how you as the victim could have responded differently. Build a mental library of detection and solutions to battles you have not had to fight.
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It is easy to sit and review the tape and see where the mistakes were made, but when you are in the middle of those situations it is hard to watch both subjects. Magicians can fool and distract you when you are watching them so these officers were watching what they thought was the threat, the father. If a officer was going swat on them and pulled them out of the vehicle and held them at gun point he was a over aggressive, and a complaint would have followed. Now that they did not do that people will sit and say they were lazy and did not know their job and it was their fault that they did not watch the kid. So they are in a no win situation. Be overly aggressive and be a ass, or be nice and get railroaded. So as a police officer that has survived a situation do not expect Barney Fife or Andy from me. You get Mr. Buford Pusser and I make no appoligies for my attitude or telling someone to hand me their firearm when I stop a CCW. I go home after my shift. You may be a nice person, but I only trust god and Smith and Wesson to get me home at the end of my shift.
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As fast as that "kid" came out on the passenger side with the AK, there is no choice. This is a life determining decision.
PERIOD.
All the "what should happen" scenarios go by the wayside. as ratcatcher pointed out, hell of a good ram by the pick up, they did not surrender, and were dangerous to the nth degree.
They brought it to that level, and the LEO's responded, as trained, to end it.
God Bless that Officer and his family. It's a brutal job, and can change within the blink of an eye.
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It is easy to sit and review the tape and see where the mistakes were made, but when you are in the middle of those situations it is hard to watch both subjects. Magicians can fool and distract you when you are watching them so these officers were watching what they thought was the threat, the father. If a officer was going swat on them and pulled them out of the vehicle and held them at gun point he was a over aggressive, and a complaint would have followed. Now that they did not do that people will sit and say they were lazy and did not know their job and it was their fault that they did not watch the kid. So they are in a no win situation. Be overly aggressive and be a ass, or be nice and get railroaded. So as a police officer that has survived a situation do not expect Barney Fife or Andy from me. You get Mr. Buford Pusser and I make no appoligies for my attitude or telling someone to hand me their firearm when I stop a CCW. I go home after my shift. You may be a nice person, but I only trust god and Smith and Wesson to get me home at the end of my shift.
I really doubt that is going to help you get home at the end of your shift. It's the criminal that will lie to you when you ask if their are weapons in the car and say no to you that will kill you when your back is turned. You can ask they can lie and you can't hall every traffic stop out of the car and frisk them without good cause. The person with a valid CCW whether they tell you their armed or not is not generally a treat, and disarming them is not only unnecessary, but potentially unsafe. I think the better option is to know their armed and tell them to keep their hand way from the firearm. I wish you luck Bulldog I hope you always make it home at the end of your shift and I hope you'll do it without violating the peoples rights that you have sworn to protect, including their right to be Armed!
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There is no one on this board (non LEO) who is more favorable to LEOs. Having said that, when I have been stopped and told the officer that I have a CCL, invariably they answer with don't do anything stupid and everything will be fine. I ALWAYS think to myself that if I was going to do something stupid, I WOUNDN'T tell him I'm carrying. And I WOUDLN'T give him time to find out. At the point I've told him I'm legal and carrying, I feel I've already proven that I'm LESS of a threat than the average person he stops that day. No non-family/friend/co-worker wants that officer to get home that night more than me if for no other reason that I never know when I might need their help.
I also feel that the weapon is MUCH safer in the holster than being handled by anyone, especially on the side of the road. And that goes for both mine AND his!
Lastly, may there not be another officer who has to give his or her life in the line of duty again! Probably too much to ask, but I'm asking anyway.
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There is no one on this board (non LEO) who is more favorable to LEOs. Having said that, when I have been stopped and told the officer that I have a CCL, invariably they answer with don't do anything stupid and everything will be fine. I ALWAYS think to myself that if I was going to do something stupid, I WOUNDN'T tell him I'm carrying. And I WOUDLN'T give him time to find out. At the point I've told him I'm legal and carrying, I feel I've already proven that I'm LESS of a threat than the average person he stops that day. No non-family/friend/co-worker wants that officer to get home that night more than me if for no other reason that I never know when I might need their help.
I also feel that the weapon is MUCH safer in the holster than being handled by anyone, especially on the side of the road. And that goes for both mine AND his!
Lastly, may there not be another officer who has to give his or her life in the line of duty again! Probably too much to ask, but I'm asking anyway.
All correct.
But by stupid, he might mean suddenly reaching down to scratch your leg or something.
I have my wallet out, window down and both hands on the wheel. I don't want to give the officer any reason to be more on edge than they must be already. As has been said here before, don't trust ANYONE.
I would also be very uncomfortable if he asked me to hand my my weapon. Like I just said, don't trust ANYONE. I don't want the car cam to show me reaching for and drawing my weapon. If asked, I think I'd request permission to "assume the position" and have him remove the weapon.
I was pulled over for speeding on one occasion and the officer told me he use LASER for the reading. I'd never seen a LASER gun and asked him if I could take a look at it. He said ok and made a hand gesture and told me to come back to the cruiser. I got out of the car and his partner was on the shoulder behind my car with his weapon drawn to cover me while I sat in the driver's seat. Wasn't offended and didn't feel threatened, but it did let me know how close I was to bad consequences had I sneezed or made a sudden hand movement.
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All correct.
But by stupid, he might mean suddenly reaching down to scratch your leg or something.
I have my wallet out, window down and both hands on the wheel. I don't want to give the officer any reason to be more on edge than they must be already. As has been said here before, don't trust ANYONE.
Agreed, I also have my interior lights on when it is at dusk or later. The easier for the officer to see me and what's in the car, the better as far as I'm concerned.
I do have to wonder how to handle the officer who thinks he needs to fondle someone else's gun that is safely tucked away in a holster.
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The only time I have handled a CCW persons weapon was when he had a S&W 44 Mag sitting on the passengers seat. It had a 6 inch barrel and he stated that it was uncomfortable to drive with it on him. I asked him to get out and I unloaded it for him. All the rest that I have dealt with were told to keep hands on steering wheel and we are fine.
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The only time I have handled a CCW persons weapon was when he had a S&W 44 Mag sitting on the passengers seat. It had a 6 inch barrel and he stated that it was uncomfortable to drive with it on him. I asked him to get out and I unloaded it for him. All the rest that I have dealt with were told to keep hands on steering wheel and we are fine.
44 mag for a CCW! :o Damn, must be more of a man than I am in all respects. Hands on the wheel is the best policy for all.
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I have been pulled over for 8 mph over the speed limit (just not thinking about my speed) and rolled down all windows, turned on the dome light, had my DL, CCL and proof of insurance ready with hands on the wheel. Officer asked if I was packing at the time. I answered yes sir I am, he then asked where the weapon was. I told him and he said nothing else about that. He handed back my CCL, went to his car and wrote me a warning. He came back to me, handed me the warning, I thanked him, he told me to slow down and I said yes sir and have a safe day. There was no tension from either side that I could see. I appreciated him respecting my right to carry the same as he has the right to self protection and his freedom as an American. If I am not hiding anything and am honest and polite at the beginning of the situation, I can see no reason for him to think I am a danger to him. I have jumped through all the hoops the law says I have to in order to excercise my God given and constitutionaly recognized RIGHT to own and carry a weapon for defense of myself and/or others from all enemies whether civilian or government. Treat the Police with the same respect and professionalism you would like to have given to you, and most of them will treat you with the same. If I don't break the law, the police don't have to pull me over, so I shouldn't put myself in that situation. This video shows 2 unfortunate officers who lost control of a situation by not paying attention to all persons on the scene. Why did they pull them over to start with? Did they suspect them of something? If not, why did they get him out of the car? Why would this evil kid think he needed to kill these officers? It seems like they must have been suspected of something? This seems to be training video on how to do everything very unproffesional and haphazardly as possible on a traffic stop. I hope all officers learn that criminals are not the folks that are going to get a CCL and that we are not the enemy. I believe that if everyone would accept their responsibility to protect themselves then the majority of the criminals wouldn't be violating the rest of our rights. They would know there is consequences for their behavior. If they know there is a very good chance they will face a death sentence every single time they put someone else in danger, I believe there would be very few criminals. I pray no other officers will ever have to go through something like this, but until that happens, please be safe out there. This is a tragedy all the way around.
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That pretty much sums it up, Plantados.
*Welcome to the forum.....wander over to the new member section and introduce yourself, if you are so inclined. :D :D