The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: alfsauve on July 12, 2010, 07:55:58 PM
-
My guns are getting older and I'm shooting them more, so it should have been a surprise when I sheared of the front sight of my Colt 1911 Mod 70. I've had it since...............70 or 71. So sad.
The sight was not original, but it was a Millet very high front sight with a red strip. Matched the Millet adjustable rear sight. These were put on in about 1974-75. The gun smith says, the Millet isn't the sturdiest anyway as evidence points out and recommends replacing both sights.
So what to get? I don't use the 1911 as a concealed carry, so "small" "rounded" isn't a requirement. I do want some type of Fiber Optic so I can use this indoors for action pistol, but at the same time I'd like to be able to use it in a bullseye match on occasion.
The 'smith recommends a Bomar BMCS adjustable rear with the Brazos Lighting Rod Microdot FB front sight.
Thoughts?
-
I have nothing to offer other than a question. I've been considering replacing the stock sights on my 1911 with FO as well. I assume this can be done without shipping anything but the slide to the gunsmith, is this correct?
Looking forward to more opinions as well.
-
get them cut for dove tails...
-
Alf...I have old eyes and also prefer FO front sights. If it were me I would try other guys/gals FO to be sure, if possible. I like the Hi-Viz front in green because it stayes sharp for me whereas the red/orange is fuzzy (don't know why!). I also prefer an adjustable rear sight of the BoMar type (BoMar is no longer made but there are similar adj. sights out there) but it isn't 100% necessary.
WWFMMNFY
Richard
-
(BoMar is no longer made but there are similar adj. sights out there)
I just noted late last night the BoMar isn't available, but I think my smith has some in stock and I'm sure there are similar ones. If I go this way, he'll have to recut the rear dovetail and cut a new dovetail on the front, but going forward, hopefully, all other sight replacements will just slide in/out.
Good news is the wife says she'll pick up the tab for my birthday present.
Of course, you all realize that when I bought this gun brand new in 1971 it was the princely price of $190! Almost a month's wages for an E3 at the time. This modification will cost more than the gun ;-)
-
I have 4 sets of Bomars, one high mounted rear ( for the hard ball match, sights must fit in original dove tail,) and 3 low mount, I really love them, very sturdy with great adjustability, as I get older, widening the rear notch to .125" is not uncommon. The FO fronts are becoming more popular with me as well.
-
Alf, when I started shooting back in the early 70's Series 70 Colt's were selling for $102.50 at my local shop! Should have taken a loan and bought ???????? many.
Richard
PS: I don't even remember how much I was making at the time but I do remember I had to take a pay CUT when I went from "Summer Help" to full time permanent!
-
I bought a pair of Williams Firesights. http://www.williamsgunsight.com/gunsights/pistol.htm They're good but are bulkier than standard.
-
Novak's work very well, Bomar's have a legacy of dependability, yet availability can be tough.
Trijicon, or even Truglo offer pistol sights with a myriad of size and visibility.
-
I have a new in package Bo-Mar that needs a new home.
-
I have a new in package Bo-Mar that needs a new home.
Frank,
Providing Alf doesn't want them (it's his B-Day, he gets first dibs), how hard to install them on my Para?
-
Frank,
Providing Alf doesn't want them (it's his B-Day, he gets first dibs), how hard to install them on my Para?
The slide needs to be milled to install them the right way.
-
The slide needs to be milled to install them the right way.
Roger that!
If Alf doesn't bite, PM me and we can haggle...
thanks,
-
So now the orders in. I'm getting theChampion (Bo-Mar style) rear sight with the Brazos Lighting Rod MicroDot front sight.
I did a little begging. Pointing out that with all the machining the new sights would cost twice what I paid for the gun. He knocked a little off. I'm going to also pick his brain about other parts and get his advice on recoil buffer, guide rods and the like.
Now the waitin.....hurry Christmas, hurry fast.
So to fill the time, I've got my shopping list. (remember the wife bought "bling" on our vacation? Payback!)
Kel-Tec P3AT
XD 9 Tactical
XD40 Tactical
10/22 Target
With accessories, that's a start. (It was major bling)
Okay I do have some trades. The XD9 Service and the Savage MKII .22, plus still toying with parting with the PPK/s. I've gotten 27 years out of it and it's starting to act up. So the only really NEW gun would be the XD40.
Bummer have to work all week.....maybe Saturday morning.
-
To all you out there, no offense for haggling, but truthfully, Gunsmiths are a for the most part, really underpaid, any time I have to do machine work, I know I am taking the risk of doing permanent damage to a firearm, and I expect to be responsible for it if I do, I do evaluate the firearm and how much the piece of it that I am going to machine is worth and the difficulty of the job, I am not going to do a porting job on a 10,000 dollar Perazzi, leave that to the guys like Briley who not only specialize, but have the type of insurance to cover it.
Next dovetail cutting is a kind of art, if your going for the friction fit, a Rear Bomar melt, includes dove tailing, but is held in by screws, front sight friction fit or rear sight for that matter, can be difficult, because each sight is slightly different, you cannot set it and forget it, you have to measure the sight and the cut, even with the best parts. I have had to repair factory front dovetails because the sight was walking, the easiest fix, if there is enough room, is to drill through the side of the sight dovetail into the frame and put a set screw through both, that is never walking again. Pretty much, dove tails are rarely used, outside the gun world. So a master Machinist, may have never had to cut one.
-
M25,
Points well made. I don't begrudge my gunsmith his fees. It was just sticker shock. He put it in perspective for me though, pointing out that while I may have paid only $190 for this gun, new, it's now worth over $1,000 today. And that they don't make them like the '70 anymore.
-
FWIW, Colt is making series 70s again. No idea what the quality or price is. http://www.coltsmfg.com/products-c5-q76-COLT_PISTOLS.aspx
-
MSRP of $919......not bad.
One thing they're not real clear on, but it is one of the distinguishing features of the '70 was the finger bushing.
-
MSRP of $919......not bad.
One thing they're not real clear on, but it is one of the distinguishing features of the '70 was the finger bushing.
Are you thinking of the collet barrel bushing, with 4 fingers on it?
-
Yep, but the Colt web site doesn't mention it. Yet that was one very prominent feature of the '70s that was dropped in the '80s.
Mine has worked fine, but I'll check with my gunsmith and get his take on it.
Some liked them, some didn't.
-
The gun's ready! At the dealer. I'll pick it up and shoot it some (100rds --- some).
I realized...not to late, that the BoMar rear sights were not fiber optic. And I really wanted FO on both front and rear, so I've had to wait an extra week.
Got the magazines loaded and cash in hand. Will report back tomorrow afternoon.
-
The new Series 70 doesn't have the extra Series 80 internal safety parts. I believe that is the only difference. I don't believe the new S70 has the collet bushing.
Richard
-
Thanks, Richard.
They aren't clear on that point, which to me was what set the'70 apart from prior models. When I pick mine up from the dealer I'll see if he has one I can inspect.
-
FIRST: My dealer called Colt and they said the '70 1911 replica's do NOT have the split fingered front collet/bushing. They have a solid bushing. BOO HISS.
SECOND: Here's my new sights. I like them very much, though I was hoping for a brighter FO. Having put 100rds through it this morning though. It will do just fine. Because the front one has a aperture it doesn't "flare" in bright light and They will be great for indoor or outdoor shooting.
Also while this work wasn't cheap, I now have common dovetails, front and rear which will allow for future sight changes at very little cost.
THIRD: I've also included some pictures of my Taurus TCP sights which I painted with florescent white.
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_udyXWMnOGhI/TFxfihjKCrI/AAAAAAAAd6g/vWk_jCbsXIE/s512/IMG_2718.JPG)
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_udyXWMnOGhI/TFxfj8z7O4I/AAAAAAAAd6o/jjUvT2ZEHf0/s512/IMG_2720.JPG)
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_udyXWMnOGhI/TFxflV0Qm-I/AAAAAAAAd6w/77UKDSfswL0/s512/IMG_2725.JPG)
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_udyXWMnOGhI/TFxfm1qTusI/AAAAAAAAd64/PK1ystbYUEY/s512/IMG_2727.JPG)
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_udyXWMnOGhI/TFxfpFfy5uI/AAAAAAAAd7I/OvAVpYg_VW0/s576/IMG_2732.JPG)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_udyXWMnOGhI/TFxfqXC6jQI/AAAAAAAAd7Q/_0eu7NeBVUA/s640/IMG_2733.JPG)
HERE's the Taurus. The left rear paint has already worn off. That's okay. I think it's the front one that counts.
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_udyXWMnOGhI/TFxfs-6hyjI/AAAAAAAAd7g/m8nYLoo2-b0/s512/IMG_2735.JPG)(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_udyXWMnOGhI/TFxfu4Z5CkI/AAAAAAAAd7w/AdgnNG59HmQ/s512/IMG_2745.JPG)
[No flash was used in this photography so as not to inconvenience any more photons than necessary.]
-
I like those FO sights, what do you think of Tru - Glo with the tritium to illuminate the FO ?
-
I'm not into the Tritium thing. Too expensive, drops to half brightness in about 12 years and on the whole, I'm just not into shooting in the dark. It might be nice for some low-light conditions, but I don't foresee much use for me. Probably if I played with a set on the range I'd fall in love, but for right now, I'll just stick with "static" FOs.
-
Alf, why are you booing and hissing because there is no collet bushing? That is a good thing because they had a habit of breaking one of the tabs off and tying things up solid...usually at the wrong time. Quite often this meant a trip to the friendly gunsmith to clear the problem. The accuracy shouldn't be affected that much. If you have to have one and want to see your GS that much, I might be able to find one for you. LOL
FWIW
Richard
-
Alf, why are you booing and hissing because there is no collet bushing? That is a good thing because they had a habit of breaking one of the tabs off .....
Richard
Well 2 reasons:
First, and probably most importantly, it isn't a true '70 without it. That was one of the defining features when the model was introduced. Without it the "reproduction".....well isn't.
Secondly, I've checked with several gunsmiths (the latest specializing in 1911s....Colts especially) and not one has seen that happen. Not saying it doesn't or hasn't, but from what I gather talking to 1911 shooters is that it isn't any bigger problem than anything else breaking on the guns. What I have found is the "traditionalist" didn't like the change more than anything else. My take is that Colt dropped the idea, bowing to bulls eye shooting community sentiments more than actual problems.
Mine is approaching the 5,000 round mark and I've broken the front sight off, but the collet hasn't been a problem.
Just my observations.
-
alf, back when I started shooting and competing a lot of shooters put 5,000 rounds thru a gun in a month or two! Also, a lot of them carried a S70 as an LEO or for PP so that when reports of breakage came in or thru experience the CB was changed out. Also, for competition...USPSA/IPSC or Bullseye most gunsmiths felt that a fitted oversized solid bushing was a must for top accuracy. Back then they were "writing the book" on how to build an accurate .45 and then .38 super.
I located one if you want it. Also check local gunshows you can quite often find an original Series 70 at about the same price as the repro.
Richard
-
Thanks for locating one Richard, but I have mine and am happy with it. Buying another 1911 is sort of near the bottom, right now in priorities.
You have put the bug in my ear to try for some groups the next time I go to the outdoor range.
I still think it's an over exaggerated problem, just an opinion I know. Really serious competitors shooting 1,000s of rounds a month are always going to experience more failures than a weekend warrior like me that may never top 400 a month at my peak. And while I could be deluding myself, I like to think the collet improves accuracy while not diminishing reliability and without a lot of fitting.
I'll post my results. Of course, they won't mean a whole lot since I only have one load and it wouldn't be feasible to convert to a solid bushing for a comparison since the barrel would need to be swapped.
-
I had one of those Series 70 CB Colts back in the mid 70's. It was the least accurate M1911 I've ever owned. Good ammo could get you 8" groups at 25 yards, while my Essex frame parts gun got 3" at the same range/ammo. I never was able to make it whoot well, and not having the money back them for an accuracy job I sent it down the road and bought a Colt New Service in .45LC that did shoot very well.
jim
-
[I'll just keep this thread going for my 1911]
BAD NEWS:
I went to the "new" range today which has true 25 yds indoor bays. Took a bean bag or two with me and pulled up a stool and hunkered down to see what groups I could shoot. Was working on a 3" group when the slide locks back after only 3 rounds out of the mag. I look at my hand and the safety fell out.
Now this isn't the original. It was an Ed Brown wide style extended safety that I installed just a couple of months ago. (Must find receipt) Broke where the pivot pin connects to the main body (pictures later). Dad burn it. Without the dual plunger and spring the slide hold open kept popping up. Fortunately, when I swept up my brass the spring and plungers were there. Got home and reinstalled the original.
-
Hey alf, does the grip have a "notch" in the grips, to allow the safety to come together? My Ed Brown ambi-safety on my 1911, when the grips are off for cleaning, can slip through the frame. ???
Just trying to figure what "broke".... Pics will help, "pivot pin to the main body" broke?
It sounds like a simple fix, but something that should not have happened. Brown products, are good stuff, just curious, as to where it broke and why.
-
If you call Ed Brown, I doubt you will need a receipt, did it break where the tenon joins the stirrup in the middle of the safety?
-
Here's the picture. Haven't had a chance to call yet.
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_udyXWMnOGhI/TGPNF9Ro4sI/AAAAAAAAeCM/Aj_33hysXsw/IMG_2780.JPG)
And here is a picture of it installed before it broke.
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_udyXWMnOGhI/TFxfqXC6jQI/AAAAAAAAd8Y/nvBnOn20jfs/s720/IMG_2733.JPG)
-
As porous as the metal looks in the pic, looks looks like poor casting or forging where a 'pocket' formed at the time of the original alloy mix. Just the luck of the draw that the spot was at a critical stress junction. It happens from time to time in metallurgy.
-
Just took a real careful look at the broken piece and I think the safety is actually made of 4 pieces and welded together. At least the pivot pin and the flat piece appear to be different and I can see the seam between them. It appears for the pivot they ream a shallow "pit" into the flat part of the safety. Then the end of the pivot pin is shaped to fit in the pit, where it is welded.
I COULD BE WRONG.
And upon further inspection the thumb portion as well as the safety lug itself may all be separate pieces.
I don't have true "macro" lens for my camera, but I'll try to take another close up of just the pin.
-
If the safety is one of their investment casting parts, it would have some lines that made it resemble being welded. I guess the only way to know for sure is to contact them.
Ed Brown FAQ's:
Do Ed Brown handguns have any MIM (metal injection molded) parts?
No, we use no MIM parts in Ed Brown firearms. While the current thinking is that MIM parts are "good enough" for firearm applications, this thinking doesn't fit with our philosophy at all. All Ed Brown parts are made from either forgings, bar stock steel, or quality investment castings.
http://www.edbrown.com/cgi-bin/start.cgi/FAQ.htm#aau
-
Thanks PegLeg. I had been to their website but hadn't seen that part.
One thing they caution about while installing this part is not to "square" this joint too much as it will weaken. Fortunately, I didn't file any on it at all as it mated with my frame satisfactorily. I sent them an email this morning with pictures.
-
Ed Brown Products responded quickly this morning with a Return Authorization. I mailed the broken parts back to them today and will await their decision.
Meanwhile back to the range tomorrow to re-try some groupings with my Colt.
-
I totally expect a new safety in the mail to you very soon. ;D
-
Ed Brown Products responded quickly this morning with a Return Authorization. I mailed the broken parts back to them today and will await their decision.
Meanwhile back to the range tomorrow to re-try some groupings with my Colt.
Quick response......I'll bet the service is as quick too.
-
You got a bad casting Alf.
I will bet money that they will take one look and ship you a new one.
I will also double down by saying that an Xray would show a void, stress fracture, or some other weakness in the original casting.
-
You got a bad casting Alf.
I will bet money that they will take one look and ship you a new one.
I will also double down by saying that an Xray would show a void, stress fracture, or some other weakness in the original casting.
VOID!!!! :D
That's the term I had on tip of my brain and fingers.....VOID....
I was drawing a blank yestiddy. We used to get them in our castings. It would cause tearing in extrusions.
Thanks for jogging my memory. :D ;)
-
Well, not sure what I proved. Might have to try this again with larger bulls-eye targets. These were kind of small.
Took the 1911 to the range and fired two groups from bean-bags. I think some of the flyers were my fault. I'm thinking....poo on those who poo-poo the split collet. My model 70 does just fine thank you. Not that I'm biased or anything. ;D
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_udyXWMnOGhI/TGyYPiQVTgI/AAAAAAAAeD4/PcBU-BXTuQ4/Target08182010-02.jpg)
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_udyXWMnOGhI/TGyYQSZEnSI/AAAAAAAAeEA/-ZAJijf9QIQ/Target08182010.jpg)
-
Nice group. My 1974 era Series 70 (also with the finger bushing) will hold about that tight of grouping (or better) if I do my part and use select ammo. Never had trouble out of it and used it for years as a Bullseye competition gun.
-
The collet bushing was a good idea for accuracy, but they do break and lock the pistol up very well.. Never have one on an SD pistol.Been around long enough, I have seen every failure I ever read about.
-
WELL as everyone predicted, Ed Brown Products came through. In the mail was a brand new extended safety to replace the one that busted.
Now the only problem is the hour or so it takes to fit this to the gun. File, polish, replace, test.....repeat about 10 times.
-
The collet bushing was a good idea for accuracy, but they do break and lock the pistol up very well.. Never have one on an SD pistol. Been around long enough, I have seen every failure I ever read about.
Oh I definitely agree 100% that it has no place on a SD gun....target guns only for me. I like the EGW Melt bushings. Very solid.