The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: billt on July 13, 2010, 06:45:46 AM
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We drive 2 older cars. A Ford Mustang, and a F-150 pickup, both 1991's. They both have never run better, or more dependably. Yesterday I took the Mustang in for it's "emission test" which has to be done every 2 years. It failed the "fuel system pressure test". According to them there is a leak in the fuel system somewhere between the fuel tank and the fuel rail to the injectors. The car has never run better. There is no fuel leaking anywhere. There is zero odor of gasoline in the garage when the car sits inside it overnight. It's not the gas cap because they test that separate.
So now I've got to take it in and waste money on something that isn't broken. Mind you we are talking parts per million here, not BP pollution standards. I got to the test facility 10 minutes before they opened, and had to wait an hour. Government workers don't ya' know. They don't exactly set the bar too high when it comes to speed or efficiency. If I performed like that at my job, my a$$ would hit the pavement in minutes, and rightfully so. The place I'm taking it to this morning will take it back to the "emissions test center" so at least I won't have to deal with those buffoons again. Until my truck comes up for testing next month. It has 2 gas tanks. What fun that will be. Neither vehicle has ever failed these tests in the 20 years I've owned both of them. Bill T.
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I take mine in today. Wish me luck. Both early 90's also. Fortuneately, I've learned a trick or two about the states license plates. I have to get new registration by Wednesday (my birthday), or I'm assesed a penalty. The trick is they will let you pay the "tax" even if you don't have the emission or the insurance up to date. That way there's no penalty. You still have to go back later and get the new tag/sticker when you get the emission completed and technically until then you're not legally "registered". It saves the penalty though.
And also to my favor, the emission place I go likes to talk about ham radio and scanner and will do their best to make sure I pass. ;)
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so what are they to fix ???
also when did they last check the test equipment who said it is ok ???
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so what are they to fix ??? also when did they last check the test equipment who said it is ok ???
Your guess is every bit as good as mine. I've never had a vehicle "fail" any of these "tests" before. As far as I'm concerned, I put this right up there with red light and speeding cameras and drunk driving checkpoints. It's all done for the dollars. Cars today by their very design pollute less because they are designed and built to more efficient standards. Look at the 2011 Mustang. It comes standard with a 305 HP V-6 that produces 31 MPG Highway! How much more energy can you get from a gallon of gas? The government has zero place in this whole equation other than to collect dollars off of it any way they possibly can.
As far as the "repair" I require, I don't really know what they do other than pressurize the system the way the test place did, then check for where the "leak" is, and fix it. All they told me thus far is the diagnostic check is $105.00, plus whatever it requires parts and labor wise to fix the "leak". My guess is $300.00 to $400.00. The whole thing is a joke because like you say I, or they for that matter, don't have any way of knowing how accurate their test equipment is. It's like a gas pump. It says you're getting a gallon for whatever price, but you really have no way of knowing unless you bring a measuring device with you to the gas station every time you fill up. Here in Arizona I doubt they check gas pumps once a year. Not enough money or employees to do so. That's at least the story they give. I read an article in an auto magazine a while back, that running a 2 cycle chain saw for one hour expels more pollutants than a modern automobile does driving coast to coast. They don't emission test lawn and garden equipment. Much like everything else the government gets involved in, it equates to total nonsense. Bill T.
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One thing I did differently this time was I only had a quarter tank of gas when I had it tested. Normally I go in with full tanks. I have no idea if that matters, but it's the only thing I could come up with. I'll ask the mechanic this morning when I see him. Bill T.
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lol what I would do is fill it up with petrol then speak with the mechanic and get him to have a "quick" look ie look at it to double check there is nothing wrong with it
then get it re-checked to see if it would pass
who wants to bet it will get passed ;D
I will put $5 down
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lol what I would do is fill it up with petrol then speak with the mechanic and get him to have a "quick" look ie look at it to double check there is nothing wrong with it
then get it re-checked to see if it would pass
who wants to bet it will get passed ;D
I will put $5 down
Here is the problem. If the "Check Engine" light comes on at any time during the test, it will automatically fail. If it is on when you bring the car in, they won't even test it. The "Check Engine" light in our Mustang has been coming on and off intermittently for the last 100,000 miles. As I said, the car has never run better. They never said anything about this light at the test facility, but if the reason it's coming on is because of this "leak", I've got no choice but to repair it. There is no rhyme or reason when it comes on, how long it stays on, or how many times it blinks. My truck is less frequent, but It does come on and off once and a while as well. Knowing this, if I ever see either "Check Engine" light come on again before I take either vehicle in for testing, I'll go under the dash with a pair of dikes and cut the line to the bulb.
A co worker friend of mine has a relative who is a fleet buyer for Hertz Rent-A-Car. He said the first thing they do when they get a delivery of new cars, is to have one of their mechanics disable the "Check Engine" light on every new vehicle before they rent it out. This is one of those items that would have been better if left "uninvented". Bill T.
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Bill T, I am an advanced emission repair specialist, my specialty is not Ford, but am pretty sharp about the lingo and systems, what confuses me about your case, is it sounds like your failing the evaporative emissions test, thing is, besides the gas cap, this was generally not part of the test until 1996, when vehicles came equipped with their own evap test systems and would set fault codes, there are some codes that can be set on your year model 1991, and if there are any codes I would like to know them. Generally speaking, in most systems, as you drive the fuel vapor system will be either pressurized by an external pump, or have a vacuum put on it, usually through engine vacuum, there is a pressure sensor in the fuel tank, and once the self test starts, the pressure must stay within limits or a code is set. On 1996 and newer vehicles, these limits are extremely narrow, and most of the time are due to deteriorated vent hoses, sticking purge valves or perforated charcoal cannisters. Any extra info would be helpful in me helping you.
As to disabling the CEL, that won't fly anymore, at least here in TX, that is part of the test, if light does not work, no pass, and then on 1996 and newer vehicles, there are these pesky readiness monitors, they are there to keep someone from resetting the CEL, and getting a inspection before the light comes back on, the monitors are subsystem tests that occur while driving to verify the repair was successful.
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Bill, I had that exact Problem in Ca.
If you have a locking gas cap the key hole will cause you to fail the test.
Get an ordinary non locking cap and try it again.
Also, gas pumps are calibrated and checked by the state Dept. of weights and measures or whatever the particular states equivilant is.
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Neither of my vehicles have locking gas caps. The gas cap passed it's pressure test. Bill T.
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MOVE
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OK, passed the cap test does mean something.
Either you have a bad pressure regulator (that would probably make it hard to start) or an old fuel pump that doesn't make enough pressure.
That is my guess as a non-expert who has tried to wrench my own check-engine issues (and done both of the above).
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$642.00. Bad EGR Valve. Bad Pressure regulator. A bunch of bad vacuum hoses. Bad oxygen sensor. And a bad pressure return something or other. They'll fix it, take it back to the buffoons, and have it back to me by the end of the day. It's not bad considering over the last 20 years and 150,000 miles the car has never failed me, and I really haven't put much money into it over the years. The last big bill was a new A/C pump 3 years ago. Both vehicles still look good, run good, and drive good. License tags are only $50.00 a year, and the insurance is cheap. Cars are a necessary evil, and I do not look forward to the day I've got to buy a new one. Bill T.
(http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz50/billt460/Mustang1.jpg)
(http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz50/billt460/F-1503.jpg)
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Your downwind neighbors will be happy you've passed the litmus test of how to make money in a bad economy..... ;)
Out here, both my cars have never even been tested for emmisions. I have 120K on one and 80K on the truck. They just plug them in to the diagnostic, read the 'puter' codes, and if the safety is good, you're free to pay your 29 bucks and be on your way...
It's a joke, but I'm repeating myself again....it's about the money, nothing more, nothing less....
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In FL we don't have any of this stuff and when I lived in PA they stopped doing it.
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In FL we don't have any of this stuff and when I lived in PA they stopped doing it.
When I lived in CT, the local Hartford TV station took a Honda Accord and deliberatly "de-tuned" to force the car to fail emmisions. They then took it to 15-18 different inspection stations and the car passed emmisions testing in all but a few of them.
At the time, they were run by a contracted company hired to test and maintain the equipment rather than have the state do the work.
It proved convincingly that the system was broken and wasn't really doing anything to stop those evil, smoke belching automobiles...
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In Arizona they are turning off all of the speed cameras next week.
http://www.azfamily.com/outbound-feeds/yahoo-news/Freeway-speed-cameras-to-be-turned-off-this-week-98237994.html
They said few were paying the fines because they came in the mail. They didn't have enough process servers to serve everyone within the 3 month time limit before the ticket became invalid. They can't even organize well enough to TAKE your money. Imagine if they had to EARN it by actually doing something productive. Score yet another victory for Jan Brewer. If this woman keeps this up, she'll be walking on water before you know it. Bill T.
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I remember when Fl. DID have vehicle inspections, the problem was all cars were due at the same time. The lines at the very few inspections stations were longer than gas lines during the Carter Admin.
Literally took you all day to get a stupid sticker, and they never did an emissions check. (Back than they still sold "leaded" gas).
Too bad billt, but it's fixed, I know you could have bought a couple more "items" but 91 Mustang 5.0's are good cars. I had an 86 5.0
tickets were my problem.... ;)
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Couple comments:
First to Billt - $642 would be eaten up in a few months of car payments or replenishing the car fund. The cheapest car is almost always the one you already have ... still sucks though;
Second on emission testing - I am actually a fan of emission testing and safety checks. Haz can verify what commercial vehicles need to go through annually to assure they are sound for the road. Then you turn around and let any rust bucket with bald tires on the street. What if the twenty year old family bomber blows a tire, has burnt our lights, drops a piece of exhaust on the road, can't keep its windshield clear because of bad wipers, fails to stop safely due to bad breaks or stalls in the middle of traffic and causes an accident? When enough of us fail to maintain our vehicles safely we forfeit the right to operate any old piece on the road.
Sooooooooo, what do I see as the biggest problem with testing and safety checks? In many states or regions, when the care reaches a certain age or value (old enough or cheap enough) they will not enforce the issues. In other words, if your car is worth $1,000 and it needs $900 in repairs they will let you go without fixing it.
I'm starting to rant, but that is what comes from putting up with other drivers for too many miles a month.
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m58, I agree. Here in Sunny S. Fl., seeing a 1978 LTD, with duct tape holding the brake lights on, more bondo, more duct tape, no bumpers, (pretty much a Mad Max looking POS), OBTW, it has 9 Hondurans packed in it, and the tallest one is 5'2, and drives like he's had his license for oh,....2 days, makes me get the hell away from him quick.
For an International Adventure in driving, we got NYC traffic beat.
I drive a company service van, everyday, and have more than one "close call",,,with junk cars, and the texting schmuck in his new BMW... :P
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What if the twenty year old family bomber blows a tire, has burnt our lights, drops a piece of exhaust on the road, can't keep its windshield clear because of bad wipers, fails to stop safely due to bad breaks or stalls in the middle of traffic and causes an accident? When enough of us fail to maintain our vehicles safely we forfeit the right to operate any old piece on the road.
If you look at the number of accidents nationwide, and the number of fatalities and injuries from them, less than 5% are because of any type of equipment failure. Bad driving accounts for the other 95%. Based on that you could put every motorist in this country into a brand new vehicle and crush the rest, and at best you'll see only a 5% drop in accidents. Exhaust emissions have little to any effect on accident rates. Besides, any type of commercial vehicle used for transport always has stricter regulations to be followed. Cars, aircraft, or boat. A $500,000.00 Ferarri won't make a bad driver good. Bill T.
http://www.smartmotorist.com/traffic-and-safety-guideline/what-causes-car-accidents.html
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I'm not disagreeing with M58, unfortunately, there ARE 20 year old bombers on the streets of New England with VALID inspection stickers on them.
The system here is corrupt just like the legislature, the Governor and the MA Supreme Judicial Court.
I'm an ex-mechanic, my cars aren't allowed to get to an unsafe condition, I won't let my wife or daughter take the wheel without doing what's necessary.
Most of the jalopies are driven by non-English speaking immigrants, legal or not they don't seem to live to the same standards as the rest of us.
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Everyone here is making valid points. I DO like the idea of safety inspections. (wipers, lights, brakes, tires) I DO NOT agree with "emmisions" testing. This is another government bend over to the global warming crowd. >:(
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WTF?
States are still doing "vehicle emissions testing" these days?
We don't here in ND - thankfully, and renewal tags are still pricey but not as bad as some states. My F350 is $160, would be over $4-500 in Wyoming.
"vehicle emissions testing" - what a cash cow joke!
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Emissions testing is not a joke, it is political, as the EPA, finds the worst counties as far as pollutants, and then bends the state over and those counties get the strictest rules, now we are talking about tailpipe emissions, not safety, but that is what all vehicles go through here in Tx, in counties that only have safety inspections, it is 12.50, for the safety and emissions it is 39.75, in the past they were just looking for gross polluters, the cars you see running around with white or black smoke pouring out their tailpipes, now in the big city, it is much more serious. I don't inspect cars, I just repair them. BillT you originally said you failed for fuel vapor or fuel leakage, the steps taken to correct your situation, indicate you had High NOX, and probably high CO, Nox will not cause the vehicle any problems, High co, may or may not, too much fuel will often make the car run better, more fuel = more performance in a lot of cases, although fuel mileage should go down.
Also, the figures are skewed, smaller engines are allowed to pollute more, as their small displacement, means even though they are dirtier than other cars, they actually produce less noxious output, volume wise.
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And all the good done by all the emissions testing, and every single other "Clean air" action taken since 1971
was negated by the Iceland volcano's first eruption.
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My thoughts on testing and inspection come from my years in automotive repair. Years of sending cars out the door with bad tires, burnt out lights, bad wiper blades, bad shocks, bad brakes, oil leaks from everywhere, and engines that didn't run smoothly (the one that would be taken care of through emission testing). And the same years driving tow truck changing tires on cold rainy or ice covered roads, picking up cars that stalled ... after they told us not to tune it up, cars that slid off the road in a heavy rain ... more bad tires, etc. And I don't think I need to go into what we all face dodging old parts that have been deposited on the road in front of us. I miss my farming days when I didn't care if I hit something with the grain and livestock trucks. These days in a Chev. Malibu and a Goldwing, I really hate the smallest item in the driving lane!
The sad thing is that the times when inspections stations broke the rules and let people off, and the times when government would suspend inspection rules are times like this - poor economy. These are the same times that people suspend their own maintenance, and these are the times when you see more and more vehicles "broke down" on the side of the road.
I wish we could leave the politics out of it and just do the right thing, but that isn't the American way anymore >:( Tom and Tom, how much rope do you need to fix that starting in January 2013?
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Back in the day when I was wearing a uniform I had to have my vehicle inspected to get a Base Access Sticker for Long Beach Naval Station. The inspection consisted of confirming headlights, horn, and turn signals. I guess they thought you needed to see who you were about to hit and warn 'em to get out of the way.
(by the way, I had to go through the inspection twice to get a sticker on my 1960 TR3 that I named The British Revenge)
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And all the good done by all the emissions testing, and every single other "Clean air" action taken since 1971
was negated by the Iceland volcano's first eruption.
And all of the Freon Fluorocarbon aerosol propellants ever used by man even if they continued, were negated by a single Shuttle Launch. Bill T.
http://www.chemtrails911.com/docs/Space%20Shuttle%20Launch-Ozone%20Layer.htm
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And I don't think I need to go into what we all face dodging old parts that have been deposited on the road in front of us.
Again, most all of the debris deposited on roadways is from careless, littering drivers and truckers, not from automotive parts falling off vehicles. Bill T.
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0803cleanup0802.html?&wired
"Crews are handling everything from thrown syringes to household items to human waste that truckers toss out in plastic bottles, otherwise known as "trucker bombs."
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Everyone here is making valid points. I DO like the idea of safety inspections. (wipers, lights, brakes, tires) I DO NOT agree with "emmisions" testing. This is another government bend over to the global warming crowd. >:(
Safety inspections should be done by the DRIVER on a regular basis.
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Safety inspections should be done by the DRIVER on a regular basis.
Yes they should, but they are not.
If, like many of us you are on a tight budget, do you pay the rent, or replace that tire that is getting smooth ?
State mandated safety inspection, having the authority of law, makes that choice for you.
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Safety is one thing... emissions another. We've had emissions inspections in NJ for years and years. When I was young and had old crappy cars (which situation I'm in again. Not the YOUNG part, the crappy car part) I failed every time and had to spend money on emissions. Years ago they let gas stations who paid the license be "Re-inspection stations". You'd pay $50 or $100 for a "Clean and Rebuild Carb" and you'd have your new sticker courtesy of the tailpipe on the other car they stuck the sensor in. So your car did not emit less, but it did help the economy a little.
Now when you fail for emissions you have to come back to the state inspection station after a repair attempt. But now if you spend a certain amount (last time I think it was $550) they officially declare that "You Tried" and they give you a sticker anyway.
Still not emitting less, but they got to harass you.
They should do away with all of that and just let the LEO give you a ticket for a smoky exhaust.
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One of the reasons Arizona doesn't have "safety inspections" for non commercial automobiles is the fact there is so little weather out here that causes the rust and corrosion related failures that effects a car so badly in the East and the Midwest. With all of the rain, snow, and salt they put on the roads there, things start rusting and failing in very short order. After one Winter exhaust equipment and shock absorbers need to be cut off with a saw or torch. In contrast out here you can remove your shocks after 18 years of driving with a Crescent Wrench. I say that because I've done it.
Back there road salt gets dissolved with snow, splashes up, under, and into everything. Salt is also an excellent conductor of electricity, and causes countless shorts in the electrical system that causes lights, wipers, flashers, and all kind of other things like brake system components to corrode and fail. We, on the other hand, can easily go 100 days without a single measurable drop of precipitation. You don't realize it until you've lived in both places. There simply is no comparison. Yes, things still wear out, but the difference is unbelievable.
The freezing Winters back there screw up engines and cooling systems and their components like water pumps and the like. When you have a V-8 engine block sitting overnight in -5 degree temps, then start it, and in 10 minutes it's up to almost the boiling point, then shut it off and it freezes back down, all of the constant expansion and contraction can, and will cause leaks over a short amount of time. I can't count the cooling system leaks, water pump failures, stuck thermostats, leaking hose connections, leaking gaskets, I've experienced back there. Each and every single one was in the Winter.
Out here I've yet to have a problem or a leak of any kind in 20 years driving the same 2 vehicles. The constant warm temperatures I know are the majority of the reason. Yes, I drain and flush my cooling system every 2 years, but I did that back there as well. Even in January it rarely gets below the 40's. And that is only until the Sun comes up and it's in the 60's before you know it. The weather back there is about the worst possible environment for anything mechanical. Bill T.
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The weather hasn't changed our here but the quality of the cars has.
I have two Fords, a sedan and a small PU both of which have lived their entire lives in the Northeast. Both are seven years old, have their original exhaust systems (a small bit of welding repair), and all I've really done is change the fluids, replace the tires when they were in need of changing and rotate and balance. The truck just had a major brake job both front and rear but that had more to do with a shitty mechanic and shoddy workmanship than the winter damage.
Anything made since about the mid nineties has been dipped at the factory in a galvanized bath so corrosion is far less than it used to be. Winters here do suck but it's not impossible to put 200,000 miles on a car if you keep it clean and do an undercarriage wash on a weekly basis. Granted, it's not gonna be a Arizona car ready for the Barret Jackson auction but you can get your monies worth.
I live amongst the BMW's, MBenz, Lexus, Infinity, Range Rover, et al.......it's kinda funny to see a five year old "E" Class Mercedes starting to rust...maybe they should save a few bucks next time and buy some common sense instead of another overpriced car!
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If, like many of us you are on a tight budget, do you pay the rent, or replace that tire that is getting smooth ?
State mandated safety inspection, having the authority of law, makes that choice for you.
I used to spend my weekends in the local bone yards buying used parts to keep my rust buckets running. Spend the day tearing apart cars and rebuilding them in the driveway. I had an 82 Ford Escort that a friend of mine gave me when we're dirt poor, it was 9 years old then. I drove that POS for six years and other than the roof of the car and the back end (hatchback) there weren't two body panels the same color but that little shit kept on running and passed inspection every year. It became kind of game with the yearly inspections.
I wish I still had it! ;D
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The muffler on our 1993 Chrysler Town and Country finally gave out this spring. The rest of the exhaust system is original. This is in the lake effect snow belt in Michigan where tons of salt are used daily in the winter. The cars are better built these days.
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Both vehicles still look good, run good, and drive good.
they are Fords though!!!! at Least They Circled The Problem ;D ;D
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f121/chevyfreak1822003/ford.jpg)
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t276/diego_f_pena/peeon_ford.jpg)
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At least they aren't using my taxes to keep their business alive!
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At least they aren't using my taxes to keep their business alive!
Thread drift for something different
did you see us Aussies looks like we are building the new cop cars for LAPD ( fingers crossed )
(http://carsguide.com.au/images/uploads/caprice22_wide.jpg)
http://www.carsguide.com.au/site/news-and-reviews/car-news/holden_us_police_car_orders_open?utm_source=ndmhouse&utm_medium=cpc&utm_content=newsfooter
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It's OK Phil, you can piss on my Fords all day and they won't rust through like that GM piece of shit...
I worked there, I won't drive one again....
;D
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It's OK Phil, you can piss on my Fords all day and they won't rust through like that GM piece of shit...
I worked there, I won't drive one again....
;D
I will
however I drive a Holden not a GM there is a difference even if we are owned by GM.
PS the latest GM's use the Holden design from our VE Commodore + we gave you the Monaro ;) until they canned Pontiac :(