The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: usmcdadx2 on July 13, 2010, 09:42:36 AM
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I'm looking for a new scope for my DPMS LoPro. The budget says about $350-400 for the scope and mounts. The two scopes that looked like they would be a good bet are the Nikon M-233 1-4x and the Millett DMS-1 1-4x. No local shop has either so I would have to order on blind faith. Can anyone make me a little less "blind".
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Have you considered the Leupold Mark AR 3-9X? They can be had for the same price, or just under the $300.00 mark. I've heard nothing but good about them. If I were going to an AR specific scope, that would be my top choice. It's hard to beat Leupold quality. Bill T.
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Thanks...but,
I guess I didn't give all of the information up front, did I? My desire is to have a scope with a low end as close to 1x as I can get and a high in the 4x to 6x range. In addition to the two I mentioned I have looked at/looked through the Leopold VX-II 1-4x. That scope plus the cantilever mounts I'm looking at put me just a bit over my upper limit. I may go that route anyway but I was hoping for some feedback on the other two.
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Nikon has some of the best glass you can get from Japan, the Mark AR line from Leupold is Japanese as well so optically there would be no advantage in the MkAR line of scopes. The Millet scope has the best reticule of the ones you have listed, eyes are naturally drawn to circles and this takes advantage of this trait. However a small check on google seems to suggest that the DMS line are touch and go. Some ok scopes and some trash seem to roll out, I got the chance to look through one at the shop and was not impressed. Lots of rolling along the edges and glass that made a murkey fish tank look better. This would have been an example of the bad ones.
For that range you do have some options.
Hawke Endurance 1-4x has a great reticule and superb glass.
Hi-Lux Leatherwood offers a 1-4x scope that has some great reviews.
Bushnell Banter Firefly 1-4x. Bushnell has made some leaps and bounds in the optics world so I would not count them out.
Of all the scopes within your range the Nikon will have the best glass. It would be tough call on the reticules and really you never gave a reason for wanting a low power scope so I can only assume you want something in that range for on the move shots.
Best of luck!
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My desire is to have a scope with a low end as close to 1x as I can get and a high in the 4x to 6x range. In addition to the two I mentioned I have looked at/looked through the Leopold VX-II 1-4x.
http://swfa.com/Leupold-15-4x20-Mark-AR-Riflescope-P40551.aspx
Leupold has a Mark-AR in a 1.5-4X Model. The nice thing about the Mark AR is it is drop calibrated for .223 / 5.56 MM Ammunition. SWFA has them for $279.95. Bill T.
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I knew I could count on you guys to help, I just didn't expect the help to add options I hadn't seen yet(I should have known better)... and yes I'm looking for the 1x factor for the speed on moving targets or rapid transitioning. I've got a buddy that is trying to suck me into the three gun world and I'm finding the 3-9x I have on the gun doesn't cut it for that game(don't even ask about the shotgun portion). He's got a Trijicon Accu-point 1-4x with crosshairs and illuminated dot on his which I really like but can't justify paying for. I guess I'm looking for something similar but a step down in price. I like the idea of the illuminated "circle-dot" on the Millett but have seen the same reviews claiming spotty quality control. I do have a buddy who has the Hi-Lux mentioned and he has had constant problems with the scope not holding zero so I didn't even really look at those. I like Nikon glass, I have Monarchs on two of my other rifles, but having never seen an M-233 I wasn't sure about the "point blank reticule".
The Leopold Mark AR will be added to the growing list. The problem is most are not available in my local shops so I can actually check them out. In the end it may all come down to Leopold or Nikon simply because of company rep.
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For a perspective this is the rig I really wanted- too bad it over twice what I have to spend.
http://swfa.com/Burris-1-4x24-Xtreme-Tactical-XTR-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P45511.aspx
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I've got 2 of the Millett's (sorry not for sale) and have had great luck with them. I have one on an AR and another on a HK91 clone. I bought one new from Dillon, the best price I found new. I bought the other off ar15.com. There always seems to be a couple listed there for good prices, I think I paid $175 for the used one with Millett rings.
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Thanks for the info. I went over to ar15.com and found their 81 page thread on the DMS scope, gave me alot more information. I know you get what you pay for and optics is never a good place to skimp but sometimes you have to settle for good enough to do the job. Now I just have to pick something that gives a good balance.
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USMCDADX2, a great scope, while new is expensive, but can be found used reasonably, is the 1.5 x 5 Leupold varix3, at 1.5 power, it can be used in the house, and of course once outside, the higher power is nice. It is a quality piece of glass, search on AR15.com, Swfa, gunbroker etc... I got mine for 175.00, because the previous owner did not mount it securely on a big magnum rifle, and it had bad ring marks, does not bother me, as long as the optics work.
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I have a DMS-1. I can't recommend it.
Pro:
+ Inexpensive
+ Lghted reticle is nice...I like the dot-in-a-horseshoe
+ Optics are pretty good for price
Con
+ Large
+ Heavy
+ 1x setting has some pretty severe "fishbowling" at the edges...enough to be distracting
+ I've had it mounted on my SA58 Para...a .308 isn't exactly a hard recoiling round. The scope has "flaked" inside and there are luminescent bits that are scattered in the field of view. They are somewhat noticable when the illum is turned off and distracting when it is on.
Maybe I just got a bad one...dunno. I really like the looks of the new Vortex Viper PST scope. Not sure if it is shipping yet. I've been impressed with Vortex as a mid-value line scope.
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My buddy is hauling me to a 3 gun shoot somewhere in the UP this weekend. He claims the guys there will have setups with most of the scopes I'm thinking about so I'll have a chance to check them out under actual use conditions. Thanks for the input you guys have given.
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Nothing beats getting to try them out yourself, although you will probably find what you like, costs more than you like.
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I started lookiing at that Leatherwood CMR 1-4x. That looks like a great scope.
+ I like the reticle a lot. I'm a fan of dot and circle for these types of scopes. The circle makes for fast up close shooting. A small dot (1 MOA) helps with longer range precision.
+ I like the ranging set up on the vertical and horizontal stadia
+ The weight is not bad...16 oz is lighter than the DMS-1 and in line with the higher end scopes like the Valdada and Horus. A little heavier than the Trijicon which runs at 14 oz.
+ The price is definitely right (~$250)
Of course, I don't know what the optics are like, how the reticle shows up in daylight, battery life or long term reliability. Will do some more research and hopefully order one to try it out. My perfect set up would be a quick release dual ring mount with a small reflex sight on it (like a Fastfire or Dokter). This would sit on my FAL Para and / or 6.8 SPC AR.
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I have a DMS-1. I can't recommend it.
Pro:
+ Inexpensive
+ Lghted reticle is nice...I like the dot-in-a-horseshoe
+ Optics are pretty good for price
Con
+ Large
+ Heavy
+ 1x setting has some pretty severe "fishbowling" at the edges...enough to be distracting
+ I've had it mounted on my SA58 Para...a .308 isn't exactly a hard recoiling round. The scope has "flaked" inside and there are luminescent bits that are scattered in the field of view. They are somewhat noticable when the illum is turned off and distracting when it is on.
Maybe I just got a bad one...dunno. I really like the looks of the new Vortex Viper PST scope. Not sure if it is shipping yet. I've been impressed with Vortex as a mid-value line scope.
It does sound like you got a bad one as I haven't experienced any of those issues with either one I own. I have heard about some quality control issues so maybe I'm extremely lucky getting 2 good ones, especially since I bought one used. I'm not sure how "used" it was when I got it but I've put at least 700-1000 rds. down a HK91 clone and CETME with this scope on top. It is a little heavy but I don't know of any other 1-4's with illumination that are any lighter than a couple ounces. A couple ounces on a 8-9# 7.62 NATO rifle is nothing. If you're setting up a lightweight AR platform this is probably the wrong optic. I'd use a red dot with an auxiliary magnifier in that setup. I've seen the Vortex Viper PST but not for under $400 so it's really not a comparable scope. The Millet is by far the best thing going in the low $200 and under range. Bottom line is you get what you pay for. You may get lucky and get a used scope that was $500-$800 new for $250-$300 used but if you want to spend that same $250 or so for a new scope then there aren't a lot of options out there.
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I started lookiing at that Leatherwood CMR 1-4x. That looks like a great scope.
+ I like the reticle a lot. I'm a fan of dot and circle for these types of scopes. The circle makes for fast up close shooting. A small dot (1 MOA) helps with longer range precision.
+ I like the ranging set up on the vertical and horizontal stadia
+ The weight is not bad...16 oz is lighter than the DMS-1 and in line with the higher end scopes like the Valdada and Horus. A little heavier than the Trijicon which runs at 14 oz.
+ The price is definitely right (~$250)
Of course, I don't know what the optics are like, how the reticle shows up in daylight, battery life or long term reliability. Will do some more research and hopefully order one to try it out. My perfect set up would be a quick release dual ring mount with a small reflex sight on it (like a Fastfire or Dokter). This would sit on my FAL Para and / or 6.8 SPC AR.
The Leatherwood does look really promising, I'm going to be looking to pick one up and test it. While we're on the subject does anyone here know of any decent quality QD 30MM mounts for these type of scopes? There's a lot of junk out there. I've got one DMS that is in Millett rings on a HK91 claw mount which was a fairly reasonable setup. The DMS I have on an AR is in a GG&G mount that cost about 80% of what the scope cost. It seems like someone would make a decent QD mount for under $100.
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If you want a true single lever mounting system, your going to pay, GGG and Arms are probably the most reasonable, other than that , I like Leupold quick release rings, that need no tools. Not cheap either, but less than a single lever mount.
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I like the GG&G mount I'm using now and the levers are a definite plus. I was wondering if there might be a decent thumb screw(s) type mount. Not throw lever quick release but something you can still get off pretty quick without a tool.
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I know that you can sometimes find great prices on used scope but I got burned by a such "great deal" years ago so now I'm leery of used.
On the bright side 70 to 75 guys showed up for the shoot so I got to look at and try all sorts of options. As predicted some of the ones I liked the best were way more than I've got to spend, one guy had a Vadada 2-12x with a Docter mounted on a 45 deg offset mount and he was smoking the course of fire. He let me run an practice course with it and damn it was sweet but at $1300 for just the scope I couldn't even dream about it. In the end after trying out sever setups in my price range I found I shot best and was fastest on 1x target transitions with the DMS even though during the day I didn't/didn't use the illumination. The setup I was allowed to try out was a DPMS Sportical which is very similar to my LoPro. The scope was in a Burris PEPR mount, the glass was very clear and sharp, changing magnification was smooth and when I tested it I could see the illuminated reticule even in the full sunlight. Without the illumination you have a very crisp circle/dot that just seemed to draw my eye to the target. the dot looks to be about 1 moa in size and worked well on the 300 yard station. I liked it so much that I ordered one as soon as I got home yesterday and it should be her by Friday.
Thanks everyone for your input.
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KPR- for what it is worth; one of the guys was running a Leatherwood CMR on his Bushmaster and he said he has been very happy with it. When I asked him about battery life he said it is as good as any of his other illuminated scopes(don't know if that is good or bad). He said he has had his almost a year and has about 2500-3000 rounds through the gun with it mounted and he has had no problems. The optics on the one he had were very good with clear glass and no edge issues. I couldn't see the illumination quite as well as I could with some of the other IR scopes but it was there. I really liked his but opted for the one that I shot the best with; which in the end, for me, is the only "feature" that really matters.
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Good feedback. Thanks!
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Scope and mount arrived on time/as promised. Got it mounted and took it to the range for a short, 2 mag., session on Sunday. Used up the first mag getting on paper at 50 and fine tuning at 100. Fired the second mag at a clean target taking each shot as soon as I could get cleanly back on target and I ended up with a 30 round group that all fit into a 3"x3" square. Most of the rounds were in an 1.5" ragged hole with the rest starting to drift up and slightly left as the barrel got hotter. Granted we're only talking 60 rounds in so far but I like it. The glass is clear with none of the issues KPR has. It was very bright at the range that morning and I had no problem seeing the illumination on the reticule when I tested it but I did not use the illumination while shooting. The black circle/dot was very clear and crisp and made getting on target a breeze. Thanks again for the input you guys gave.