The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: Thanos on July 31, 2010, 01:35:47 PM
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I know, you are thinking "Someone is going to get himself in trouble!"
But my question is, can I submit paperwork to the BATF so I can get the permit to make my AR a short barreled rifle (SBR)?
I can't find anything that says you can't put a regular length upper on a SBR. So, could I register mine as an SBR and then use my 18 inch barrel on also?
Does the rifle have to be registered as a SBR at the time of manufacture or just when it is sold or created?
I know that you can't just slap the 10 inch barrel on a regular lower, so don't tell me you can't and waste your breath.
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You have to register your lower befor you can build an SBR, you cant even own the barrel until that is done. As far as changing out the upper from SBR to a legal length to go hunting or what ever, yes you can do that at any time. If you go to the ATF web site under the F A Q on SBRs, a lot of your questions can be answered. By the way, if you would keep your sarcasm out of your posts, you might get quicker answers!, ::) I know that you can't just slap the 10 inch barrel on a regular lower, so don't tell me you can't and waste your breath. Good luck, Tom
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Heck, for me it's the sarcasm that gets the answers ;D
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By the way, if you would keep your sarcasm out of your posts, you might get quicker answers!,
Fine, here is some non-sarcasm. Stick it in your ear!
I have heard more than one person tell me that you can't "Insert something here" when they really didn't know what they were talking about. So I guess my "Sarcasm" worked, I didn't get some schmuck telling me that it couldn't be done. I sure wish I would have put something in about "don't be such a sensitive little girly."
So, don't tell me what to say in my posts to get a quicker answer, and I won't tell you how to make your wife happy, like I did. ;)
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Well, I tell you what!, I'm new here, might not last long, but so be it!. If it wasnt for dumb as#'s like you, were a simple google of the ATF web site could answer all of your questions, but no, you want to be lazy and ask for help, then be a smart as# only shows your ignorance. Next time you post a dumb as# question and dont get any replies, think of the way you ask the question!. OH!, by the way, my wife says I have nothing to worry about, between you having such a little pecker and the fact you blew your load in your pants, I can be confident that I can keep her happy, your mother agreas!.
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now now boys play nice! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Alright, both of you cool it.
First of all Thanos, the way you titled the thread answers the question. NO YOU CANNOT PUT A SBR UPPER ON A NON SBR LOWER. That is illegal. However in reading your post. Yes you can submit the paperwork to have your lower classified as an SBR. After you obtain that approval you can pretty much put any length barrel you want on it. Whether it be 10" or 30" It no longer matters because the lower is registered for any barrel configuration.
As for you Devildog, many of us use this site as an informational resource. Especially the weapons catagories. Thanos asked a legitimate question, albeit he was an asshat about it. So don't be to quick to judge the people here until you understand what we are all about. And if you are that quick to jump on someone, I think you would have some fun in the politics section. ;D
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Heck, I am cool, and I never judge anyone over what they say on the net., you know, I come here for the same reasons you do!, if I offended Thanos by saying he should keep the sarcasm out of his post, thats his problem. He asked the question, I gave him his answer, he got cute with his responce, I got a little cut'er when he brought my wife into it, thats it. Am I offended by his post, hell no!, I like to have a little fun every now and then!. ;D
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It no longer matters because the lower is registered for any barrel configuration.
Well, see now that I have a consensus on that you can register a Ar as an SBR and put a longer barrel on it. There arises another question, what happens when you bring into a state a SBR with a 20 inch upper? It is registered as an SBR, with or without the SBR upper, it is still registered as an SBR and it is a class 3 felony in my state to have any component of a SBR.
So, is it the barrel or the lower that is the SBR when they are disassembled? I would say the barrel, because I can have a lower but the SBR upper is restricted, but the issue runs into the fact that the lower is the part with the serial number on the tax stamp.
Oh, devildog, I didn't know that you called your wife's mouth "Pants" and my mom is dead...you satisfied a dead lady that is rotting in a grave? You are sick.
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Thanos, What does a State have to do with it? It is a Fed registration. Most states (other than maybe Commiefornia and NaziJersy) don't register anything.
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Note the last sentence.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.190
RCW 9.41.190
Unlawful firearms — Exceptions.
(1) It is unlawful for any person to manufacture, own, buy, sell, loan, furnish, transport, or have in possession or under control, any machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle; or any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or in converting a weapon into a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle; or to assemble or repair any machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle.
(2) This section shall not apply to:
(a) Any peace officer in the discharge of official duty or traveling to or from official duty, or to any officer or member of the armed forces of the United States or the state of Washington in the discharge of official duty or traveling to or from official duty; or
(b) A person, including an employee of such person if the employee has undergone fingerprinting and a background check, who or which is exempt from or licensed under federal law, and engaged in the production, manufacture, repair, or testing of machine guns, short-barreled shotguns, or short-barreled rifles:
(i) To be used or purchased by the armed forces of the United States;
(ii) To be used or purchased by federal, state, county, or municipal law enforcement agencies; or
(iii) For exportation in compliance with all applicable federal laws and regulations.
(3) It shall be an affirmative defense to a prosecution brought under this section that the machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle was acquired prior to July 1, 1994, and is possessed in compliance with federal law.
(4) Any person violating this section is guilty of a class C felony.
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Well, see now that I have a consensus on that you can register a Ar as an SBR and put a longer barrel on it. There arises another question, what happens when you bring into a state a SBR with a 20 inch upper? It is registered as an SBR, with or without the SBR upper, it is still registered as an SBR and it is a class 3 felony in my state to have any component of a SBR.
So, is it the barrel or the lower that is the SBR when they are disassembled? I would say the barrel, because I can have a lower but the SBR upper is restricted, but the issue runs into the fact that the lower is the part with the serial number on the tax stamp.
Oh, devildog, I didn't know that you called your wife's mouth "Pants" and my mom is dead...you satisfied a dead lady that is rotting in a grave? You are sick.
Just call your LOCAL ATF office and they will refer you to paperwork required if you are moving, or traveling with a registered SBR
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Heres your info shmuck;
Q: If I remove the short barrel from my SBR or SBS, may I move the firearm across state lines without the submission of ATF Form 5320.20, Application to Transport or to Temporarily Export Certain Firearms?
If the registrant retains control over the parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm is still be subject to all requirements of the NFA. ATF recommends contacting law enforcement officials in the destination state to ensure compliance with state and local law.
I see your still to lazy to go look where I told you! 8), by the way, she said in your wildest wet dreams LIL-GUY!
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Well, that would mean that if I took the firing pin across the state line into Washington I would be breaking the law? See, I knew someone would be stupid enough to point out that the ATF has a website that suggests you contact some bureaucrat that in all honestly will have no real idea. You see, the issue is, what part of the gun is the SBR?
If it has a 18 inch barrel on it, and it is registered as an SBR, is is still an SBR? I am not thinking of taking the short part into the state. So is the lower that was originally a regular AR that was then registered as a SBR remain an SBR when the SBR upper is taken off? If so, then the barrel is not the determining factor in an SBR, it is the entire component set.
So, someone who legally owned an SBR in Idaho and then sold the butt to a guy in Washington would be breaking the law according to your reference. I asked here because I thought that someone would have an idea. I was hoping someone would know for sure, not know some vague rule posted on a agency website.. So my expectation of someone with experience in the matter on this webboard seems a little premature.
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As stated in my first post, the lower is the registered part, you made no mention of going across state lines or in your last post selling the but. Let me explain, the only part, in a SBR that if you took the rifle apart, that you could not sell, would be the barrel without the purchacer doing paperwork, or selling the complete rifle. If you decide to put a 16" upper on the rifle and get rid of the barrel, it automaticly becomes just another rifle, if you put a new front sight on the SBR, or fire control, or what ever, you can sell any of those parts, just not the barrel. Here is some more of the F A Q about SBR;
Q: I possess a properly registered SBR or SBS. I intend to strip the receiver and remove the barrel prior to selling the receiver. Is the bare receiver still subject to regulation under the NFA as a SBR or SBS?
A stripped receiver without a barrel does not meet the definition of a SBR or SBS under the NFA. Although the previously registered firearm would remain registered unless the possessor notified the NFA Branch of the change, there is no provision in statute or regulation requiring registration of a firearm without a barrel because its physical characteristics would make it only a GCA “firearm” pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)(B). If the subsequent owner buys the receiver as a GCA firearm and installs a barrel less than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS), the firearm would be subject to a $200 making tax and registration under the NFA by the manufacturer or maker of the SBR or SBS. Because registration depends upon the stated intent of the applicant, there is no provision to allow registration of a NFA firearm by anyone other than the maker or manufacturer.
Q: If I remove the short barrel from the registered SBR or SBS, is the receiver still subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations?
If the possessor retains control over the barrel or other parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm would still be subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations. ATF recommends contacting State law enforcement officials to ensure compliance with state and local law.
Q: Does the installation of a barrel over 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA? If so, is this considered a permanent change?
Installation of a barrel greater than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) will remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA provided the registrant does not maintain control over the parts necessary to reconfigure the firearm as a SBR or SBS.
Q: Is it necessary to send notification to ATF and receive acknowledgement that the SBR or SBS has been removed from the purview of the NFA before it may be sold as a GCA firearm?
There is no requirement for the possessor of a registered NFA firearm to notify ATF that the firearm has been removed from the purview of the NFA. However, ATF recommends the possessor notify the NFA Branch of such changes in writing so that the possessor is not mistakenly identified as the owner if the firearm is later used in a crime. If, at the time of transfer, the firearm does not meet the definition of a SBR, it should be transferred without filing the NFA transfer application and without payment of the transfer tax.
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Devildog, no need for name calling, you did your home work and now have given us all the answers and I appreciate it. As much as I know about this kind of stuff, I would not offer and answer unless I was absolutely sure, which I was not. Would you accept tax advice from a non expert? I am not sending anybody to the pen for a misinterpretation on my part. You had a hard question, and you achieved your own answer and shared it with us, thanks again. Stick around, we got a lot going on.
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Its all in fun, ;D I took no offence in what Thamos said about my wife, I hope he took no offence, someone opens the door for a little abuse, I'll oblige them in a heart-beat, thats just the way I am, I have not one P C bone in my body. Thamos, if I offended you by saying, By the way, if you would keep your sarcasm out of your posts, you might get quicker answers!, I'M SORRY!. As far as the laws of the ATF, I deal with them pretty much everyday, know a good amount by heart, but also know the best place to get your answers is on the F A Q page, we all pretty much know, if you ask three different ATF agents the same question, you can get three different answers, if you get the answer from their F A Q page, that is pretty much their veiw of the law written in stone, they cant rule against what they write!.
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One important thing to remember is that the answers given by any Govt agency are "policy interpretations", and can indeed change over night.
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Devildog,
If you could offend me you would have something really special about yourself that I have never met in a gun owner. You would have the qualities and attributes that so far I have only found in gun hating hippie liberals.
I am just a flippant punk with a skateboard attitude. ;)
Hey, sorry about what I said about your wife, that was uncool and uncalled for.
I have enough experience to know that the local government office may in fact run it differently than they do in the next state. and that is what I wanted to know.
You see, in the liberal gun hating hippie Seattle world that I live in I have a mayor that can't read the Constitution of the United States or the State and spends money fighting to have concealed carry restricted. I am sure that he would have a coronary knowing that I am searching for ways to acquire a SBR to go with my other "Evil Black Guns."
Out of curiosity, what do you do that keeps you in close contact with the ATF? Are you a gun seller? If so give me your website address in a PM. I would much rather buy from someone that I knew and was smart enough to be quick on their insults than the guy I don't really know. I hope to be in the market for a new Sako soon.
Thanos
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Like stated, I took no offence, she still refers to you as LIL-GUY though!. I am a dealer/gunsmith along with a auto repair shop in "still the free state" of Georgia, I have no web site, just a small town type business. To add to what tombogan03884 said, yes, you do need to check the web site from time to time to stay up to date.
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This is an interesting topic and I'm with M-25. I know how I'd read the law since the lower is the registered SBR if I wanted to venture into a state that didn't allow SBR's I think I'd leave it behind and not take the chance. If you can afford to own a SBR, pay the extra $200 etc. why not just put together another lower for your legal upper. I mean you can build a nice lower with top quality parts for under $400 and avoid the issue all together. Keep your SBR in one piece rather than swapping the uppers around. That's what I'd do anyway.
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Well, you see I live in a state that does not allow SBRs. I know I can get a .408 Chey Tac that can hit something at 2000 yards, but something that is shorter than 16 inches is going to cause me to loose my mind and become a criminal, because the 1911 .45 ACP does not have that affect on people in Washington. I digress.
Since I can purchase one, I just can't own one in my state, I have to find ways around it. And this is what I think. I could register my lower as a SBR and file the paperwork. Then get a AR pistol. When I am not in Washington, I could legally put the SBR on the lower with the butt stock. because I have a house in Idaho where SBRs are legal, I could then swap it out when I cross the state lines and still keep all my parts with me at either location. The SBR with the longer barrel would no longer be an SBR and the component of the SBR would no longer be part of an SBR because it would become part of the pistol package.
I will have to look carefully at the wording of the laws, but I think I could do it and not get in any trouble, as long as the "Pistol" Barrel never went on the rifle upper in Washington.
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Well, you see I live in a state that does not allow SBRs. I know I can get a .408 Chey Tac that can hit something at 2000 yards, but something that is shorter than 16 inches is going to cause me to loose my mind and become a criminal, because the 1911 .45 ACP does not have that affect on people in Washington. I digress.
Since I can purchase one, I just can't own one in my state, I have to find ways around it. And this is what I think. I could register my lower as a SBR and file the paperwork. Then get a AR pistol. When I am not in Washington, I could legally put the SBR on the lower with the butt stock. because I have a house in Idaho where SBRs are legal, I could then swap it out when I cross the state lines and still keep all my parts with me at either location. The SBR with the longer barrel would no longer be an SBR and the component of the SBR would no longer be part of an SBR because it would become part of the pistol package.
I will have to look carefully at the wording of the laws, but I think I could do it and not get in any trouble, as long as the "Pistol" Barrel never went on the rifle upper in Washington.
You can own an SBR in Washington, you can't own a full-auto SBR. To get a basic SBR, the best way I'm aware of is to go through the Gun Trust lawyers http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/shortbarreled-rifels-sbrs/ (http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/shortbarreled-rifels-sbrs/) to form a trust with yourself and whom ever else you want to be able to shoot it listed as trustees. By forming the trust you eliminate the need to go through the local law enforcement.
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Hey Mike, Thanks!
I have emailed them. Maybe I will see you at a WAC show.
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Hey Mike, Thanks!
I have emailed them. Maybe I will see you at a WAC show.
I try to make them when I can. I probably get to about 6 a year having to work weekends. There's a small chance I'll make it this Saturday afternoon for a short bit, but it will likely be November before I can go for a leisure wall through the rows. Message me when you go. If I'm going to make it let ya know. Good luck! I hope you get it done. ;D