The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: SureShot on August 01, 2010, 01:56:31 PM
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Hay guys, have a quick question for everyone. On a home defense shotgun is it safe to keep a shell in the chamber with the safety on?
Thanks, stay safe, and keep your mussel down range.
Paul
Proud NRA, TSRA and GRRN member
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Define safe. If you don't have kids or idiots in the house, don't pull a Plaxico, and remind yourself to keep the bugger hook off the bang switch and the gun pointed in a safe direction, I don't see why not.
FQ13
PS my mussels prefer to stay safely up range, they want the oysters sent down range instead. ;D
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Define safe. If you don't have kids or idiots in the house, don't pull a Plaxico, and remind yourself to keep the bugger hook off the bang switch and the gun pointed in a safe direction, I don't see why not.
FQ13
I agree (with FQ! :o ) ;)
;D
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As long as you dont have kids
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Without more details what has been said is what I believe.
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I'm going to add one caveat to what I said. I don't like the saftey (870 style) on my maverick. I find it awkard as a lefty. Thus I keep mine unchambered with the safety off. Make sure you are familiar with yours and there is zero confusion as to which is on or off at 2am.
FQ13
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O.K. should have made myself clearer, my main concern if I have my shotgun loaded and propped up in the corner by the bed, and it gets knocked over for some reason, will the gun go off with a shell in the camber and the safety on?
Hay guys, have a quick question for everyone. On a home defense shotgun is it safe to keep a shell in the chamber with the safety on?
Thanks, stay safe, and keep your mussel down range.
Paul
Proud NRA, TSRA and GRRN member
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I kind of go with the other comments posted about storing how you like with no little ones around. However, because of the fact that shotguns have no drop safety/firing pin safety, I'd recommend keeping the shotgun cruiser-ready. I've been given that same advice by several police officers. You open your safe with a chambered shotgun and for whatever reason the gun falls out, you could have an accident that cruiser-ready would have eliminated. I don't have a lot of use for a safety on a defense shotgun.
Cruiser Ready: no round in chamber, hammer forward, full tube (or -1) or magazine inserted.
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Thanks Fuzdaddy that's what I wanted to know, and thaks to all for your help.
Paul
Proud NRA, TSRA and GRRN member
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Hi;
Personally, I would not have a round chambered for 2 reasons;
1; Saftey
2; If I were to hear glass breaking or noises in/around the house there is a great mind/attention getter for the bad guys in them hearing a Ka-Chink of the pump action. The home owner is Open for Business !
Just my 2 cents worth.
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Fuzzdaddy you beat me to it. Cruiser ready is the way I have mine. All you have to do is rack one in the chamber when you are confronted by what ever. That sound has made Haines underwear a mint. That way my wife who is not shotgun fan, knows to just rack the pump and it is ready to ruin some criminals plans.
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Keep my 870 staggered with #2, 00Buck, and slugs, BUT I do not keep one in the chamber. It is very close at night, and in a strange way, I want them to "hear" the infamous racking. It only takes a moment to do so.
Pistols are close as well, but the 870 Express Magnum, is the "end-all" SD weapon. Put on the CDM rail mounted light, with the adj stock, to shorten it. It's a bad day for anyone that wants to pry open a glass sliding door here at FT. TW.
Agree with dipisc, on both points.
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/870access2001.jpg)
and I hope, it doesn't get to the Sig556, with a Winchester 5.56 frangible in a 30rd mag. (neighbors)..
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I would have to disagree with betraying you alertness to an attacker by keeping the chamber empty. I keep my scatter gun, 870, loaded and chambered, but, I leave the action half open. Three steps to fire, close chamber, safety, trigger pull. Plus I get the benefit of a visual check on the chamber when I pick the weapon up.
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Texas Bryan, in the same "alertness" factor you mention, with the action 1/2 open, seems one more thing tho "visualize" in the dark.
(might be difficult), take the three steps, and knock it down to two:
Rack, safety is already off, and fire.
Visual checks are going to be secondary, at 4:18 a.m. when the glass breaks.
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Texas Bryan, in the same "alertness" factor you mention, with the action 1/2 open, seems one more thing tho "visualize" in the dark.
(might be difficult), take the three steps, and knock it down to two:
Rack, safety is already off, and fire.
Visual checks are going to be secondary, at 4:18 a.m. when the glass breaks.
Half chamber visual check can be tactile as well, my night vision is pretty good. Both times I've grab my pistol in the dark I've checked the chamber, even though I'm absolutely sure It's loaded, by pulling the hammer back a visually checking the chamber. I prefer to maintaining silence to storming around in the dark middle of the night like Frankenstein...
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Half chamber visual check can be tactile as well, my night vision is pretty good. Both times I've grab my pistol in the dark I've checked the chamber, even though I'm absolutely sure It's loaded, by pulling the hammer back a visually checking the chamber. I prefer to maintaining silence to storming around in the dark middle of the night like Frankenstein...
I agree about NOT storming around the house, after all we know the layout of our house (even in the dark), better than any potential BG.
I don't have children in the house, (which opens up another situation), but the LESS I have to do, if woken up at o'dark thirty, the better.
The end result is going to be the same, an armed homeowner, who is familiar with his/her house, in the dark, and a BG, who is in the WRONG place.
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I probably wouldn't keep it standing in the corner either. I probably would keep it under the edge of the bed on my side...chamber empty, safety off. Might even keep it in an unzipped case to keep the dust devils out.
JMHOFWIW
Richard
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Mine is cruiser ready, as well. And as far as betraying my position by racking the slide, I look at it this way. Unless the BG is high on PCP, the sound of my 870 chambering a round is gonna scare the crap out of him. EVERYBODY instantly recognizes that sound, and unless the BG is brain-dead or flying higher than a 767, he's not gonna stick around to confirm that the sound is what he thought it was. And since my objective is to get him the hell out of my house, and NOT hunt him down and shoot him, I'm good with the psychological effect of that sound.
In the case of somebody entering my home in the dark of the night, I have a 4-step plan:
1) Grab the shotgun
2) Chamber a round
3) Take cover
4) Call 911
Unless the BG enters our room, I'm willing to wait for the cops. My aim is to defend our lives, not our stuff.
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Unless the BG enters our room, I'm willing to wait for the cops. My aim is to defend our lives, not our stuff.
Well put....
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My pump has the safety OFF, clear chamber, rounds in the Magazine, ( And is propped against the wall ;D )
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Fine, then keep the chamber empty. But you have to offer up the one liner, "I like to keep this handy //rack,rack// for close encounters." ;D
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I see a lot of good reasoning from different points of view on differing conditions of readying the shotgun. Cruiser is still for me - again, no drop safety. I'm not particularly interested in putting too much faith in the sound of racking the slide to scare off a goblin, but if it happens to, than great. If this goblin has chosen to enter my occupied domicile, he may be on something, or otherwise out of his mind and may not use reasoning at the sound of a pump, or being yelled at to leave. Silence and stealth may be necessary, if someone is already in and I need to gather my family, or if my wife and I go to gather it the kids' rooms.
and I hope, it doesn't get to the Sig556, with a Winchester 5.56 frangible in a 30rd mag. (neighbors)..
More than once, I've seen Rob Pincus demonstrate that the light, fast 5.56 may go through less building materials than any of the other options that you listed. That Sig 556 may not be such a bad choice.
May we all stay safe and never have use of all of the preparedness that we've pursued and may we all be open to learn better methods if they are presented to us. Stay safe.
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fuzdaddy,
May we all stay safe and never have use of all of the preparedness that we've pursued and may we all be open to learn better methods if they are presented to us. Stay safe.
Big Amen to that.
99.999% that post here, would rather be just left the hell alone than confronted with a life or death situation. We try to avoid conflict, but won't run from it in one's home. That is a different confrontation, and carries much more potential lethal consequences.
Whether we go to a safe room, or have to get our children from other parts of the house, we train and pray we survive, and they don't.
I'd prefer they punk out and run away, crapping their pants on the way out, BUT I don't know their intentions, and so I prepare to learn and improve a way of dealing with it.
Like many post here at DRTV:
Stay Safe.
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Learned a lot from this thread. I am making a shotgun my next purchase and am leaning towards a shorter barrel with a pistol grip, 12 gauge seems to be a no-brainer choice. Any suggestions for ammo and choke tubes? My inital reaction for SD is one that fills a room with a lot of shot. My concern is that is most likely less able to permanently disble the BG, but should be enough to hit him/her with something and change their mind on how good of a target they selected. Or, is it better to go with less spray and more concentrated power and hope that my training keeps me on target with a tighter shot.
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Learned a lot from this thread. I am making a shotgun my next purchase and am leaning towards a shorter barrel with a pistol grip, 12 gauge seems to be a no-brainer choice. Any suggestions for ammo and choke tubes? My inital reaction for SD is one that fills a room with a lot of shot. My concern is that is most likely less able to permanently disble the BG, but should be enough to hit him/her with something and change their mind on how good of a target they selected. Or, is it better to go with less spray and more concentrated power and hope that my training keeps me on target with a tighter shot.
Most here will agree that birdshot will get the job done without penetrating too far through the house endangering other family members. Across the room effectiveness is what you're trying for and even bird shot at twenty feet is not spreading much out of a short barrel riot gun. Get the gun you want and take a few large targets or boxes to the range and test your patterns with various loads.
I'm using #7-1/2 target loads because I have a bunch of it and I'm satisfied it will make a BGs day go south in a hurry.
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Hey Paraguy, this is a great thread, with a wealth of knowledge from many. Consider all options regarding a 12g with a pistol grip only.
There have been previous posts with shoulder/pistol grip options but it really comes down to you and what your comfortable with.
The Personal Defense Annual Issue, has great current articles by Janich, and others, regarding line of fire, in your home, hallways, bookshelves, fireplaces, stairways, neighbors, that is a great read.
The shotgun is about as good as it gets for home defense, but consider your home and domicile. Usually #2, OOBuck, is more than adequate, but consider, with close neighbors, adjoining bedrooms, #4, or #6, or 8 shot.
As others have posted, at SD ranges, 7yds or less, it won;t matter to the BG. There are reduced recoil loads 9-14 pellet loads, that would more than disable a BG at 7yds.
Regardless of brand, Mossberg, Stoeger, Remington, whatever,...the shotgun is on the short list for a home defense weapon.
Fellow shooters I know, stagger their rds.(as I do), sometimes called a "spray & wash" approach. followed up by slugs, which would require more accuracy, but it would be Katy Bar The Door if 6-8 rds. won't end a threat, in a home.
Shotgun tactics are well worth reviewing, the current mag referenced above has some great points to ponder.
Take Care.
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I've got #6 in mine since it was on sale and 7 1/2 wasn't.
The longest distance in my Apt. is Bedroom wall to living room wall just under 30 feet, add 6 inches and you are into the next apt.
Also, 12 ga is not a no brainer, 20 ga ammo is nearly as easy to find in the same price ranges, sufficient for the job and far more appropriate for wives and older children.
Another thing, don't waste money on a semi auto for home defense, they need X amount of pressure to function properly when a pump or SXS will fire any thing at any pressure that you can stuff into the chamber.
If you have failures to feed or eject with a pump or SXS the problem is you most likely.
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I have a remington 870, and a mossberg 500 staged at the bed side. I have a stock sleeve that has 2 #6 bird shot in the first two a #4 buckshot in the third and 2 slugs in the last holders. In the shotgun is 4 #6.
http://www.opticsplanet.net/buttstock-shell-holder.html
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Just for fun…
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As far as shot, its a matter of personal preference. As for bore, if you are buying new, cylinder has always been the default option. It will handle shot and slugs. You get decent accuracy with slugs at hunting ranges (under 50 yards as well). I've never used choke tubes of any sort so I can't comment there. I would not get a PG only stock. If you want something more compact, I'd get a folder or M-4 style with a PG, probably the latter. I've looked at both, but I like the ablity to butt stroke someone as well..
FQ13
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The defensive advantage of the sound of racking a shell is overrated ... unless you are a movie producer.
#1. I agree that the safeties on a shotgun are not as good as a handgun, so one in the closed chamber is not the best idea;
#2. A fun of any kind should never be just leaned - build or buy a rack that the gun will hang in or lean in securely;
#3. Full magazine, one in chamber with action open - Just slide pump forward or hit release on semi-auto and you are ready.
An unloaded gun is only a club, so if you are not going to keep it very easy to use it will be worthless when you are aroused at 2:15 AM. A gun that is stored in an unsecured way is poor practice since not only may it fall over with normal household activity, but it could very easily be knocked over in the act of putting it into use.
Just like setting yourself up to carry a gun, setting your shotgun up in the bedroom will require lots of trial and error and lots of practice. There have been many threads on this forum discussing carry guns and holsters. The common thought is that it is finding the right one that puts more handguns either in the safe or used as trade material, and why we all have the standard "box of holsters." Good luck, and enjoy the quest!
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As far as shot, its a matter of personal preference. As for bore, if you are buying new, cylinder has always been the default option. It will handle shot and slugs. You get decent accuracy with slugs at hunting ranges (under 50 yards as well). I've never used choke tubes of any sort so I can't comment there. I would not get a PG only stock. If you want something more compact, I'd get a folder or M-4 style with a PG, probably the latter. I've looked at both, but I like the ablity to butt stroke someone as well..
FQ13
Follow-up shots are usually achieved faster with some sort of shoulder stock as well, because of added controllability. I actually prefer a standard stock for speed, but others argue that the addition of the pistol grip gives more one handed control, when opening doors and such. Shooting a pump gun one-handed kind of turns that gun into a single shot. Personal preference as always…
I do have a pistol gripped shotgun and have shot it a lot, but I would never choose that gun first in a situation where I'm stationary and covering an entry. It's great for going around the corner at the top of the stairs, but everything, operationally, is slower and using the sights is much more difficult - not entirely impossible, but almost there. It is a lot of fun and a lot of our guns are about fun, but it's not the best SHTF gun. I guess that in Mad Max world, it would go great under a trench coat, but I don't want to go there.
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I've got the Knoxx recoil absorbing stock on mine since I needed a shorter length of pull, it is M-4 styled and has a pistol grip to keep your hand away from the recoiling parts.
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I've got the Knoxx recoil absorbing stock on mine since I needed a shorter length of pull, it is M-4 styled and has a pistol grip to keep your hand away from the recoiling parts.
Knoxx stock is great.
I was always an M14 Bigot since that is with what I was first trained..and qualified expert. Hard to over come the feeling of confidence that gives.
However, after using long guns with pistol grips (full stock but pistol grip) like the AR and the Knoxx on shotguns, I find I need a .308 platform with a pistol grip.
Seems I've seen a wall mount bracket that will secure a long gun against falling over or easily getting knocked over. Can't find a link for it though. Mossberg makes a Loc Box which has a lock, but doesn't seem to protect the trigger...but I might be wrong about that.
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Some time back, someone posted a matress contraption that hung your scattergun from a rack wedged between the boxspring and matress. Made a little cradle to rest your shotgun into and was pretty simple to fabricate.
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Sportsman's guide had spring clips that attach to the back of a door or the wall to hold a shotgun.
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Sportsman's guide had spring clips that attach to the back of a door or the wall to hold a shotgun.
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=676333
http://www.the-backup.com/
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http://www.the-backup.com/
Thanks Pegleg, that's the one I was thinking about.
Couple pieces of 12 gauge flat bar would do just as well with a bench vice and a hammer.... total outlay, about 10 bucks for the flat bar and a can of Krylon for 5 more..
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I vote cruiser ready as well but then I also have small children in the house. My 12ga is also the only weapon in the house that isn't in the safe or a gunvault. I have a standard bifold door closet and put hooks directly above the door of the closet so unless you know it's there you'd never think to look for it. You open the closet and look in and see the clothes, shelves etc. but unless you stick your head in then look straight up you'd never see it. If there's a "bump in the night" I'd first get a pistol and light from the gunvault on the nightstand and make my way to the closet to grab the 12ga if I have time to slip on some shorts I'd slide the pistol into my waistband, if not I'd hand it to my wife. Unfortunately the layout of our house doesn't allow me to sit put and wait, I have to clear a couple rooms to check on the kids. My son knows to get under his bed at the first sign of trouble but my daughter isn't old enough to do this on her own yet. I'd go get her and deliver her to my wife first unless we continued to hear potential threats then my wife would follow and take a defensive position in my daughters room while I made my way to my sons room. Far from an ideal situation but we had the place before the kids. Hopefully we'll be moving in the next year or so and plan to build. I plan to base most of our design around home security when we do move.
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I have a standard bifold door closet and put hooks directly above the door of the closet so unless you know it's there you'd never think to look for it. You open the closet and look in and see the clothes, shelves etc. but unless you stick your head in then look straight up you'd never see it.
Good one, I've thought of trying that myself.
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Good one, I've thought of trying that myself.
I did that myself, but I have the luxury of not having kids at home, so I CAN stay put.
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I did that myself, but I have the luxury of not having kids at home, so I CAN stay put.
Me too. Our youngest is at home, but he is 19 and is as well armed on his end of the house as I am. The shooting lanes extending from our respective bedrooms do not put us into each others line of fire so as long as we stick to the plan and stay put, we should be good to go.
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http://www.the-backup.com/
Have one of these. They are made of plastic or a polymer but they are sturdy enough for the job.
It did what it said it would do, but it might not be very practical.
If the foot of the bed and the side of the bed where it is installed is not facing the door, it will be unwieldy to get into play. While laying down, you will have to swing the gun across the bed or around the room to find a target. Not so easy with a fully loaded pump or auto. You will need to sit up to keep from sweeping your feet.
The pump will only have one shot before you need to get both hands on it and that will take sitting up.
Sitting up with a ready shotgun in your hand might not be the safest thing you can do either.
If you sit up first and put your legs over the side, the weapon will be blocked by your legs.
It is really only an advantage if the side of the bed with the weapon is pointing at the door and then it would be best if it were a light chopped double or auto.
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Have one of these. They are made of plastic or a polymer but they are sturdy enough for the job.
It did what it said it would do, but it might not be very practical.
If the foot of the bed and the side of the bed where it is installed is not facing the door, it will be unwieldy to get into play. While laying down, you will have to swing the gun across the bed or around the room to find a target. Not so easy with a fully loaded pump or auto. You will need to sit up to keep from sweeping your feet.
The pump will only have one shot before you need to get both hands on it and that will take sitting up.
Sitting up with a ready shotgun in your hand might not be the safest thing you can do either.
If you sit up first and put your legs over the side, the weapon will be blocked by your legs.
It is really only an advantage if the side of the bed with the weapon is pointing at the door and then it would be best if it were a light chopped double or auto.
Excellent points.
Makes me lean even farther toward what TT was talking about.....been studying on that one a while as a back-up to my bedside table apparatus (aka, Glock 27). If I did the under-the-mattress rack thing, I may consider using my Kel-Tec Sub rifle....since it is a direct companion to my G27. I would think of using frangible ammo also. Seems the Kel-Tec is more compact and with the pistol grip, could be manipulated easier from that particular rig than the shotgun. Don't know, would have to try it out and see.
Another thing I must always consider if something goes bump in the night is a required delay. I can't just jump up and go because I have to take the time to don my prosthetic leg. I keep it next to the bed, staged with a pair of pants (already with belt and holster in them ready to go.
But, since I would make my stand in the bedroom, movement is secondary to having the gun available next to the bed. I want the shotgun staged just in case I do get up and have to move.
Good stuff...triggering much thought here.
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Excellent points.
Makes me lean even farther toward what TT was talking about.....been studying on that one a while as a back-up to my bedside table apparatus (aka, Glock 27). If I did the under-the-mattress rack thing, I may consider using my Kel-Tec Sub rifle....since it is a direct companion to my G27. I would think of using frangible ammo also. Seems the Kel-Tec is more compact and with the pistol grip, could be manipulated easier from that particular rig than the shotgun. Don't know, would have to try it out and see.
Another thing I must always consider if something goes bump in the night is a required delay. I can't just jump up and go because I have to take the time to don my prosthetic leg. I keep it next to the bed, staged with a pair of pants (already with belt and holster in them ready to go.
But, since I would make my stand in the bedroom, movement is secondary to having the gun available next to the bed. I want the shotgun staged just in case I do get up and have to move.
Good stuff...triggering much thought here.
Why move? As you said in another venue, you are an "emplacement guy". That sounds good to me. Roll off the side of the bed, shot gun or glock in hand, call the police and cover the door. Let them take what they want. If they open that door, well, they really shouldn't have. :-\ You have no small kids in the house, you can hole up and let them come to you. I'd rather be ready to go and immobile than take two minutes or better (risking being caught flat footed), to get mobile. Just my .o2.
FQ13
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Why move? As you said in another venue, you are an "emplacement guy". That sounds good to me. Roll off the side of the bed, shot gun or glock in hand, call the police and cover the door. Let them take what they want. If they open that door, well, they really shouldn't have. :-\ You have no small kids in the house, you can hole up and let them come to you. I'd rather be ready to go and immobile than take two minutes or better (risking being caught flat footed), to get mobile. Just my .o2.
FQ13
That is why I made this statement near the end: ;D
But, since I would make my stand in the bedroom, movement is secondary to having the gun available next to the bed. I want the shotgun staged just in case I do get up and have to move.
;D
In all seriousness, you're right FQ. No need to move as stated. And my current plan is basically as you stated. Get the wife, roll off the side and use the bed as concealment and maybe offer an added element of surprise if the boob opens the door.
Two major things would require uprooting, in my way of thinking.
1: House on fire...and that issue is not related to this topic...and
2: My son getting in trouble he can't handle......he is a capable shot, no doubt, but at 19, he could still panic (hell, any of us can panic)....if I thought for a minute he was overcome and in need, as a parent, I have no choice (whether 'tactically' right or wrong) but to go.
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That Kel-tec sub might not have some of the potency of a shotgun, or a .223. I'll bet it's real handy though.
I don't know if that matress carrier would work for this. Maybe I'll just have to put it under my pillow-
(http://www.galleryofguns.com/prod_images/52438.JPG)
My Benelli would be sweet in it, but I' don't get to rack it. ;)
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I keep our "house gun" with the mag full and the chamber empty. It only takes a fraction of a second to rack the slide of a pump gun, and as was mentioned there is no other sound that will instill the fear of God into someone who is doing something he shouldn't be doing. I just don't like depending on mechanics for safety. A Glock and a double action revolver are the only 2 exceptions I would make, and they won't fire unless a human deliberately intervenes. Bill T.
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And my current plan is basically as you stated. Get the wife, roll off the side and use the bed as concealment and maybe offer an added element of surprise if the boob opens the door.
That'd be a neat trick. I'd like to see that!! ;D
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Get the wife, roll off the side and use the bed as concealment and maybe offer an added element of surprise if the boob opens the door.
If your in bed with her to begin with, you already "got her". ;D Bill T.
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That'd be a neat trick. I'd like to see that!! ;D
I've seen a bunch of boobs that could open doors.....just go to wal-mart. ;D ;D
I saw a set of boobs once at a joint outside of Ft. Benning that could pick up a $10 bill from a.......... er, um.....yeah.
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I've seen a bunch of boobs that could open doors.....just go to wal-mart. ;D ;D
I saw a set of boobs once at a joint outside of Ft. Benning that could pick up a $10 bill from a.......... er, um.....yeah.
I think I know her. ;D