The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Hazcat on August 13, 2010, 08:12:49 PM
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By ERICA WERNER
Associated Press Writer
--SNIP
"As a citizen, and as president, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country," Obama said, weighing in for the first time on a controversy that has riven New York City and the nation.
"That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances," he said. "This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakable."
Obama made the comments at an annual dinner in the White House State Dining Room celebrating the Islamic holy month of Ramadan.
--SNIP
Republicans were quick to pounce on the president's remarks.
"President Obama is wrong," said Rep. Peter King, R-N.Y. "It is insensitive and uncaring for the Muslim community to build a mosque in the shadow of ground zero. While the Muslim community has the right to build the mosque they are abusing that right by needlessly offending so many people who have suffered so much.
--SNIP--
Obama elevated it to a presidential issue Friday without equivocation.
While insisting that the place where the twin towers once stood was indeed "hallowed ground," Obama said that the proper way to honor it was to apply American values
"Our capacity to show not merely tolerance, but respect to those who are different from us - a way of life that stands in stark contrast to the nihilism of those who attacked us on that September morning, and who continue to plot against us today," he said.
Entering the highly charged election-year debate, Obama surely knew that his words would not only make headlines but be heard by Muslims worldwide. The president has made it a point to reach out to the global Muslim community, and guests at Friday's dinner included ambassadors and officials from numerous Muslim nations, including Saudi Arabia and Indonesia.
--SNIP
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_GROUND_ZERO_MOSQUE_OBAMA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2010-08-13-20-34-17
emphasis (BOLD) is mine
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Got rope ?
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I meant to ask is the an annual Easter or Christmas dinner or are they spring and winter holiday dinners?
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I say let 'em build the damned thing...then two days before the grand opening, take a helicopter (like they use to fight forest fires) and dump thousands of gallons of pig blood over the roof of the whole place.
>:(
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Got rope ?
He used just enough to hang every liberal up for re-election.
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Like building the Hitler Museum and NAZI political center on the site of Auschwitz.
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I wrote in a post to Eric earlier today that insulting me was pointless as I'm hard to offend. I also wrote that I could be persuaded with reason and mentioned a few times where this board changed my mind on important issues. This is one of them. I was totally against the NY mosque. Then Peter King said this (quoted from the OP):
"President Obama is wrong," said Rep. Peter King, R-N.Y. "It is insensitive and uncaring for the Muslim community to build a mosque in the shadow of ground zero. While the Muslim community has the right to build the mosque they are abusing that right by needlessly offending so many people who have suffered so much."
Ask me when it is Constitutional not to build on private property or worship as you damn well please because it is insensative and might piss folks off?
Not 12 hours ago, I was leaning against the mosque. I still don't like Islam, hate Sharia, and think Al Queda will have a field day with this propaganda wise. I wish it weren't being built. But...when someone in the government says you can't build a house of worship on your own property because the neighbors (including me) will get pissed? Sorry, but thats a gut check for this libertarian. I'd rather the damn thing were left unbuilt, but I'd rather see it built than prevent it as at least it proves we are serious about religious freedom and property rights. :-\
FQ13 who might throw up a little in his mouth for saying that, but sometimes doing the right thing sucks. PS disregard my previous posts. Peter King inadvertantly proved me wrong. Doesn't mean I'm against the gay bar and rib joint, far from it, just that being told that one religion being favored over another, being told you can't do as you please on your own land or that folks have a right not to be offended pisses me off.
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Twice in one night, FQ leaves me with a pondering mind. While I will give the fact that FQ has made an INCREDIBLE argument, I am left with the "F' them and the Horse they rode in on!" attitude. I am a sticking to my guns but the Bill of Rights trumps Ego and Hatred.
tex
P.S. knock it off FQ.
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I wrote in a post to Eric earlier today that insulting me was pointless as I'm hard to offend. I also wrote that I could be persuaded with reason and mentioned a few times where this board changed my mind on important issues. This is one of them. I was totally against the NY mosque. Then Peter King said this (quoted from the OP):
"President Obama is wrong," said Rep. Peter King, R-N.Y. "It is insensitive and uncaring for the Muslim community to build a mosque in the shadow of ground zero. While the Muslim community has the right to build the mosque they are abusing that right by needlessly offending so many people who have suffered so much."
Ask me when it is Constitutional not to build on private property or worship as you damn well please because it is insensative and might piss folks off?
Not 12 hours ago, I was leaning against the mosque. I still don't like Islam, hate Sharia, and think Al Queda will have a field day with this propaganda wise. I wish it weren't being built. But...when someone in the government says you can't build a house of worship on your own property because the neighbors (including me) will get pissed? Sorry, but thats a gut check for this libertarian. I'd rather the damn thing were left unbuilt, but I'd rather see it built than prevent it as at least it proves we are serious about religious freedom and property rights. :-\
FQ13 who might throw up a little in his mouth for saying that, but sometimes doing the right thing sucks. PS disregard my previous posts. Peter King inadvertantly proved me wrong. Doesn't mean I'm against the gay bar and rib joint, far from it, just that being told that one religion being favored over another, being told you can't do as you please on your own land or that folks have a right not to be offended pisses me off.
Get lost Quaker
Back on topic. Building this mosque in that location is horrible. It is without a doubt done as an act of provication, and probably should be viewed as an act of war. HELLO! They are gonna dedicate it on September 11th! Also, I would bet the farm that there is Bin Laden money funding this damn thing. They are taking a victory lap and trying to use this as a propaganda tool. They were offered free land elsewhere in NYC and they refused it because they want it at Ground Zero.
No one is saying they cant build a mosque in NYC... No one is saying lets shut down every mosque in NYC. This is in no way violating their right to religious freedom.
The other thing that pisses me off about this is that it is by definition going to fuel terrorism. Everyone on the left always harps on how our actions cause terrorism, and how we are breeding terrorsts and all that crap.... well, what message does this send to terrorists? It tells them that they should come here and destroy any shinning symbol of what they think is wrong with America because a few years later they will erect a mosque in its place. This will without a doubt be used as a motivation tool by our enemy.
At the very least, this is disturbing the peace and they should have to move their little party elsewhere for the sake of that.
Exit Question: Show of hands... Who would have thought this would have been a good idea if presented on Sept 12th 2001?
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Get lost Quaker
Back on topic. Building this mosque in that location is horrible. It is without a doubt done as an act of provication, and probably should be viewed as an act of war. HELLO! They are gonna dedicate it on September 11th! Also, I would bet the farm that there is Bin Laden money funding this damn thing. They are taking a victory lap and trying to use this as a propaganda tool. They were offered free land elsewhere in NYC and they refused it because they want it at Ground Zero.
No one is saying they cant build a mosque in NYC... No one is saying lets shut down every mosque in NYC. This is in no way violating their right to religious freedom.
The other thing that pisses me off about this is that it is by definition going to fuel terrorism. Everyone on the left always harps on how our actions cause terrorism, and how we are breeding terrorsts and all that crap.... well, what message does this send to terrorists? It tells them that they should come here and destroy any shinning symbol of what they think is wrong with America because a few years later they will erect a mosque in its place. This will without a doubt be used as a motivation tool by our enemy.
At the very least, this is disturbing the peace and they should have to move their little party elsewhere for the sake of that.
Exit Question: Show of hands... Who would have thought this would have been a good idea if presented on Sept 12th 2001?
Exit Answer: I think our People or Government should of BOUGHT THE LAND. Then this F'ing B.S. situation wouldn't be in play.
The only thing I truly can come up with is a tid-bit of knolodge that has served me over time," do not be angery over being put in 'Check', just CRUSH the bastard for doing so and savior the 'end mate' !".
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Look guys, I ain't happy about this. It makes me mad as Eric. But, and but....., do we throw our principles away? Yeah, Al Queda will do a victory lap when its built, but they'll do one if we don't build it and they can claim that muslims are persecuted. We lose either way. I was against this thing this morning for these two reasons. Now? I think its best to stick to our principles and if they're going to hate us, let them do it for the right reasons. I'll shoot them either way, I'd just prefer not to be misunderstood. ;D And I damn sure won't back down on what I'm for. These assholes shouldn't dictate our policies or change our Constitution. You want to build a temple to a false God on your own land, go nuts. I won't stop you. Its why our country is actually worth fighting for.
FQ13
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Alright I am sick of this hand-holding-agreeing-crap. If they want to build due to the fact that they caught us off guard and are working a technicality, SO BE IT! I expect the government and powers at hand to place a "Nation out of Debt. Over Night" tax on 'them' for it. That is, after all, the American way and how it is has done past and present.
tex
P.S. make sure there is little representation to go with that HIGH taxation, so those in question can see our view toward history whilst we are at it.
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Is it ideal to believe in total idealism?
Regardless of principles, beliefs, what the laws says, some things are just plain wrong and immoral.
Matches were invented for a reason!
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Is it ideal to believe in total idealism?
Regardless of principles, beliefs, what the laws says, some things are just plain wrong and immoral.
Matches were invented for a reason!
They are what they are.
We are what we are.
Decide where you want to live.
FQ13
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Yeah, Al Queda will do a victory lap when its built, but they'll do one if we don't build it and they can claim that muslims are persecuted. We lose either way.
We may lose either way, however, one way IS worse than the other. Yes, if the mosque were not allowed to be built, our government would come away with a black eye and the muslims would have fodder for their Anti-American fire. I would just about guarantee, though, that once the mosque is built there will be a MAJOR uproar. Huge protests, at least, with violence being extremely likely. Is it better to look bad because you took a preventative measure against certain catastrophe, or knowingly let it occur to save face? Wars have been fought and laws enacted in the name of prevention. This is one of the few times that philosophy could actually pay off.
Swoop
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I wrote in a post to Eric earlier today that insulting me was pointless as I'm hard to offend. I also wrote that I could be persuaded with reason and mentioned a few times where this board changed my mind on important issues. This is one of them. I was totally against the NY mosque. Then Peter King said this (quoted from the OP):
"President Obama is wrong," said Rep. Peter King, R-N.Y. "It is insensitive and uncaring for the Muslim community to build a mosque in the shadow of ground zero. While the Muslim community has the right to build the mosque they are abusing that right by needlessly offending so many people who have suffered so much."
Ask me when it is Constitutional not to build on private property or worship as you damn well please because it is insensative and might piss folks off?
Not 12 hours ago, I was leaning against the mosque. I still don't like Islam, hate Sharia, and think Al Queda will have a field day with this propaganda wise. I wish it weren't being built. But...when someone in the government says you can't build a house of worship on your own property because the neighbors (including me) will get pissed? Sorry, but thats a gut check for this libertarian. I'd rather the damn thing were left unbuilt, but I'd rather see it built than prevent it as at least it proves we are serious about religious freedom and property rights. :-\
FQ13 who might throw up a little in his mouth for saying that, but sometimes doing the right thing sucks. PS disregard my previous posts. Peter King inadvertantly proved me wrong. Doesn't mean I'm against the gay bar and rib joint, far from it, just that being told that one religion being favored over another, being told you can't do as you please on your own land or that folks have a right not to be offended pisses me off.
Twice in one night, FQ leaves me with a pondering mind. While I will give the fact that FQ has made an INCREDIBLE argument, I am left with the "F' them and the Horse they rode in on!" attitude. I am a sticking to my guns but the Bill of Rights trumps Ego and Hatred.
tex
P.S. knock it off FQ.
The answer is blindingly obvious .
Let them build it,
Torch it later. We up hold our own values by allowing them to build, while still preventing our enemies from having their monument.
To make it even better they get over charged out the wazoo for everything and the site gets looted constantly, the mafia, city, local thives , all helping to relieve these sheep of a little excess wool ;D
3 bags full ;D
Eric, No one has ever been booted from the Forum for holding different opinions.
They have been removed for being trouble making A holes.
Think about that then either accept that you disagree with FQ and get over it or I would suggest you leave.
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They probably have every right to build the mosque and they probably should have that right, BUT I don't think they are showing very much good will by pursuing it, nor do I believe that they will be receiving much good will back from those that they will offend.
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credit to Haz for the pic:
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/ATT00001.jpg)
The name of the book Obama is reading is called:
The Post-American World, and it was written by a fellow Muslim.
He was reading this prior to his iftar Ramadan dinner at the WH.
Gee....now he supports the mosque?
I wonder how many UNION construction companies will bid and get the job? Or will it have to be built by Islamic companies, as infidels aren't allowed inside?
They are exploiting our own rights regarding property and freedom of religion, because they know they can, and we won't do anything about it.
Sure they could have built it down the road....But the imam, is now "an American ambassador" to help raise money, paid for by us.
Even though his previous remarks about America and 9/11 go forgotten...
This is a slap in the face, and they know it, and with Bloomberg/BHO putting the glove on the imam's hand, we'll get slapped again.
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Heres the funny thing about slaps in the face TW. They don't really hurt, and they aren't even remotely insulting if you smile while taking one. "Did you just slap me? Sorry, I didn't notice. Maybe you should try again so I can be properly offended, because right now I'm just bored and annoyed" That lesson is courtesy of the Army. The use/abuse of our freedoms? Good, we are who we are. The slap? I didn't feel it because I know what I'm willing to die for and it ain't seventy virgins. Let them them build this, let them insult us. Just keep standing there. But let them know you can knock them on their ass when you want to, but they just aren't worth your time yet. It isn't aout what they are, its about who we are. Yeah, its an insult. Smile, shrug and punch them stupid in afghanistan.
As far as Bo? I've said before he's a waste of space and I'm damn sorry I heard of him, much less voted for him. I don't care what he reads. Unless its Carters memoirs as in "don't screw up like I did", I really don't care. The guy is toast.
FQ13
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Heres the funny thing about slaps in the face TW. They don't really hurt, and they aren't even remotely insulting if you smile while taking one. "Did you just slap me? Sorry, I didn't notice.
FQ13
If I slapped you in the face, you'd notice. ;D ;D ;D
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I wrote in a post to Eric earlier today that insulting me was pointless as I'm hard to offend. I also wrote that I could be persuaded with reason and mentioned a few times where this board changed my mind on important issues. This is one of them. I was totally against the NY mosque. Then Peter King said this (quoted from the OP):
"President Obama is wrong," said Rep. Peter King, R-N.Y. "It is insensitive and uncaring for the Muslim community to build a mosque in the shadow of ground zero. While the Muslim community has the right to build the mosque they are abusing that right by needlessly offending so many people who have suffered so much."
Ask me when it is Constitutional not to build on private property or worship as you damn well please because it is insensative and might piss folks off?
Not 12 hours ago, I was leaning against the mosque. I still don't like Islam, hate Sharia, and think Al Queda will have a field day with this propaganda wise. I wish it weren't being built. But...when someone in the government says you can't build a house of worship on your own property because the neighbors (including me) will get pissed? Sorry, but thats a gut check for this libertarian. I'd rather the damn thing were left unbuilt, but I'd rather see it built than prevent it as at least it proves we are serious about religious freedom and property rights. :-\
FQ13 who might throw up a little in his mouth for saying that, but sometimes doing the right thing sucks. PS disregard my previous posts. Peter King inadvertantly proved me wrong. Doesn't mean I'm against the gay bar and rib joint, far from it, just that being told that one religion being favored over another, being told you can't do as you please on your own land or that folks have a right not to be offended pisses me off.
FQ, the 1st amendment rights are not an issue, and here's why. Government entities from NYC to Lizard Lick, NC have always had the right to say you can't put X building in Y location. It's called zoning. Nothing unconstitutional in zoning laws. The only reason you're hearing the 1-A argument is because they figure it will resonate with people who don't think things through. Atypical of you, I must admit, inasmuch as you have a tendency to overthink most issues.
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from FQ:
But let them know you can knock them on their ass when you want to,
Reference book BHO was reading, in my previous post,.....
Our current POTUS, won't even attempt your quote above, as Appeaser In Chief,.....really?
Take 2 minutes and read this from American Thinker:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/08/regarding_ground_zero_bloomberg_misses_the_point.html
small excerpt.
So perhaps rather than focusing on how intolerant we Americans are, Mr. Bloomberg can cut the American people some slack for being nervous when a shady and foreign entity is trying to put a symbol of Allah's divine providence atop the sacred site where Islamic jihad won its greatest victory in centuries. This is especially so when the construction of this mosque could not only embolden Islamic fundamentalists on a global scale, but it could also increase domestic recruiting for the future indoctrination of the cancerous anti-American Islam that plagues many parts of the globe.
And historically, a slap in the face meant a duel "to the death" at sunrise...
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Some to the city of NY to ponder...
If they do build it, how much is it going to cost the city a year?
just think of the law enforcment cost alone, I would not be shocked at all if the bill tops 1 mil in LE alone in the 1st year. If they are going to let them build it, part of the deal needs to be they pay for increased costs.
I could careless if they build it or not.
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TAB:
I could careless if they build it or not.
If they let infidels build it, put a bid in....., ya' know let's spread the Islamic, and US Gov't wealth around...
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having worked on mosque before, they have some very diffrent stuff in them.
example they have benchs infront tof the urnals. yes the men actually sit to pee.
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Look at it this way. If the mooslims build this mosque, let another business buy or lease next store, say the gay bar that has been proposed, or a pig butcher. Do you think the mosslims will shriek about how "insensitive" it would be to allow it? Damn right they will, and our spineless politicians and assorted liberals will back them to the hilt.
We are being sold, folks, and sold out. bho's price tag for doing his masters' bidding just might be the islamization of America - which will only further destroy our social, economic and political might in the world.
This whole situation is getting sicker and sicker by the moment. There comes a time in everyone's life when you have to draw a line in the sand - a point past which you shall not push me. This mosque idea is just another shove towards that line - or another click on the stove.
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Thing is this could be stopped VERY easily! ConEd (? electric utility there in any case) owns about half the land and is leasing it to them. All ya got to do is buy that land.
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We are being sold, folks, and sold out. bho's price tag for doing his masters' bidding just might be the islamization of America - which will only further destroy our social, economic and political might in the world.
This whole situation is getting sicker and sicker by the moment. There comes a time in everyone's life when you have to draw a line in the sand - a point past which you shall not push me. This mosque idea is just another shove towards that line - or another click on the stove.
We are being sold out. And that damned mosque is the line in the sand. We lose there, well, go ahead and buy some burqas for your wife and daughters. If America doesn't see this as the slap in the face that it is, we deserve to lose the Republic.
Offered by Crusader Rabbit (who is quietly reflecting on the significance of his avatar).
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Blocking the mosque from being built in that location does not infringe on anyone's right to free religion. There are still countless mosques thoughtout the country that allow any and all muslims to find a place to worship. Remember, its not like anyone is saying they cant build another mosque in this country. People just dont want it built there. They are not trying to create a muslim free zone, and this is in no way a compromise of our constitution.
This is also not unprecedented... You cant just build a church anywhere you want to. It has to obey zoning restrictions and has to not interfere with the community in general. You cant just pop up a 10 story 1st church of whatever in the middle of a subdivision. A city council most definately has the authority to say no to this.
I will also point out that NY officials are bending the laws to actually get this in. The board who must decide if they can tear down the 150 year old building (Which technically they can not) to build this thing has turned a blind eye to to the fact that they are tearing down the building and are actually on record as saying that it would be a great idea to build a mosque there. This is politics. Pure and simple. Why else would Obama make this the time and place that he first speaks about the subject? Why else would he not have said what he said and then went on to try to persuade muslims to be more sympethetic and build somewhere else? Why did no one in the press ever get around to asking him where he stood on this? Why is no one looking into the funding for this thing?
Exit Question for Obama: What took you so long to take a stance on this, Champ? Was Jeremiah Wright on vacation or something?
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I've given this some thought.
You may have seen me make posts strongly in support of religious freedom, the freedom to believe in the religion of your choice, or the freedom to not believe in any religion. I still support that belief.
But, I also feel that the Islam religion should be banned from the US.
It precepts require it's followers to violate the Constitution of the US and the Constitutionally guaranteed rights of US Citizens by requiring them to force non-believers to convert to Islam or become slaves to Islam. If non-believers do not choose one of those options, they are to be killed.
This simply cannot be tolerated on US soil.
I know the majority of Muslims do not actives pursue these directives of their religion, but they allow it to remain as part of their religious teaching thus insuring that a minority of their members WILL actively pursue these tenets.
Further, I have heard enough from others to believe that even that majority of Muslims who do not adhere to these tenets still believe it is the expected destiny of Islam to succeed in these goals.
We have seen it posted here that while non-fanatic Muslims are friendly and offer no suggestion of hostility, when pushed, they will reveal that when the "final day" comes and Islam is done using infidels, they will accept conversion or slavery or be killed.
Even though they may see it in the mists of a mystical far distant future it has been core to their beliefs from an early age. They will not act to prevent more active Muslims from forcing those choices today.
If they (those who do not follow these tenets) would act to stop these tenets, we would have seen the results of that action already.
Has there been any reaction to Imam who teach these tenets? Any reaction to Imam who teach it as an active and required and immediate duty of Muslims?
Has there been any 'self-policing' of the radical Muslim terrorists?
I have not seen evidence of that. If Muslims do not actively resist and stop such beliefs, they are supporting those who are acting upon them today.
The Mosque at ground zero should not be banned because it is insensitive to build a Mosque in that location, as FQ stated, but it should be banned along with any Mosque that requires it's believers to violate the Constitution of the US and the rights of US Citizens.
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Question.....
Who builds buildings in New York City?
Answer.....
Trade Unions! Unions full of American men who make things out of steel and iron and sweat and injury and pride. Some of the most dangerous work in the world, men who take no shit from anyone, anywhere. The architects of this building may well find themselves without the manpower to even break ground.
Unions may be left leaning politically, but that rarely comes from the men and women of the locals but the bureaucratic suits and criminals that run them. Even some criminals have pride in the USA...
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with the way things are going right now, I doubt anyone in construction will turn down work even if the union strikes, there are still plenty of guys that would scab.
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This thing could be stopped in a minute if the NY Police and Firefighters unions made a public statement that none of their membership will respond to a 911 call to the mosque's address or any address within one block....
...then watch the fun begin.... ;D
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Let them build it. Then when it's filled to capacity, bomb it.
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Let them build it. Then when it's filled to capacity, bomb it.
I wouldnt be surprised if a nut tried to fly an airplane into it.
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I wouldnt be surprised if a nut tried to fly an airplane into it.
Like this ?
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http://www.haaretz.com/news/international/muslim-leaders-to-abandon-plans-for-ground-zero-community-center-1.308426#article
Muslim leaders to abandon plans for Ground Zero community center
Insiders say Muslim spiritual leaders behind the controversial initiative are considering giving up on the former World Trade Center location, in a gesture of appeasement.
By Shlomo Shamir
After weeks of heated debate over plans for an Islamic community center near Ground Zero - the site of the 9/11 attacks on New York - it seems Muslim leaders will soon back down, agreeing to move to a new site.
The decision follows a high-profile campaign against the project that included advertisements on New York buses showing images of the burning Twin Towers, an iconic landmark razed when al-Qaida terrorists flew packed passenger planes into them in 2001. The New York Republican party is also said to be planning a hostile television campaign.
----snip----
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The decision follows a high-profile campaign against the project that included advertisements on New York buses showing images of the burning Twin Towers, an iconic landmark razed when al-Qaida terrorists flew packed passenger planes into them in 2001. The New York Republican party is also said to be planning a hostile television campaign.
A small inaccuracy in that article. The ads had to be "sanitized" before the transit authority would put them on the busses. No flames, no airplanes, nothing controversial.
So much for the 1st Amendment.