The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: Pecos Bill on August 23, 2010, 05:20:49 PM
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This is posted in the cafe also but I want to reach as many gun nuts as possible.
This is a warning to all the gun nuts reading this magazine. I need to warn everyone about the Jonathon Arthur Ciener Co.
On April 30, 2010 I sent them an order for a .22 conversion unit for my pistol accompanied by a USPS money order for $209. After a 2 months wait I wrote inquiring if they had received my order. It is now Aug. 23, 2010 and I have heard nothing from Ciener & Co. They cashed my money order and have signed for a registered letter I sent them but no, repeat, no response. I should have checked with the Central Florida BBB before I sent money, not after.
I don’t know if these thieves are still in business but their web site is still up and their phone is still answered by the same message that they don’t return voice messages. I do know that if you send them $10 they will check on your order. Sorry, guys, I’ve got $209 plus the $2 for the money order plus the $6 to trace the money order plus the $6 for the registered letter and they won’t even take the time to tell me to kiss their ---. This company is a band of thieves! They know that no one in his/her right mind is going to sue for a couple hundred bucks ‘cause the lawyer fees would be way too expensive. Don’t send any money to these thieves and if you have, demand it back. You won’t get it, but demand it anyway.
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We have some members in Central FL. Maybe one will go have a talk with them for ya.
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JAC is an arrogant A hole, customer service is nill, won't answer calls and it is a shame, he has a decent product, except the rifle conversions, they usually need help to work, but cmmg does work. The pistol conversions usually do work for 1911's but there are better alternatives. Avoid his company. >:(
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I believe that if you paid using a USPO money order and it has been cashed without you receiving the product paid for you can contact the US Postal inspectors and have them pay him a visit, I believe it's called mail fraud.
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I believe that if you paid using a USPO money order and it has been cashed without you receiving the product paid for you can contact the US Postal inspectors and have them pay him a visit, I believe it's called mail fraud.
Excellent if true. The words "postal Inspector", in answer to you asking who's at the door should have a high pucker factor. ;D
Note though: DO NOT SEND A LETTER OR LEAVE A MESSAGE, OR EVEN SAY, "Return my money or I'll call the cops". That is extortion. You can hint it, "I'll have to explore all my alternatives". Just don't make "unles then" statements.
FQ13 goodluck
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It's too bad when a guy is competent, and offers up a decent product, he's got to turn around and ruin it by acting like a common thief. I don't understand why people operate like this? Ciener has been around forever at the same location down there on the "Space Coast" of Florida. A really nice place to set up a successful business operation. That usually speaks of sound business practices. It appears that is not the case here. Once business people tarnish their reputation this way, it is all but impossible to repair it. I just don't see where the upside is? The firearms business is close knit. This type of news will spread faster than a beer fart in a crowded elevator. Bill T.
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Thanks for the words and ideas fellow gun nuts! I hadn't thought about the postal inspectors and the mail fraud thing. (Thanks Majer and FQ13) I've dealt with Ciener before and was very satisfied but of late they appear to have become a different company. A few months ago I made inquiries about setting up a dealer program with them for my local gun pusher and the draconian program info I got back I pitched into the good ol' round file without even bringing it up to the pusher. My instincts told me not to deal with these .... people ...... but I wanted a conversion for a Beretta and their's was the only one I knew of. My mistake! Now I know about the kit from Beretta and guess I'll save some money for that. I've already written off the $209 I sent to Ciener but I haven't quit on pursuing them.
You can be aure Ciener won't get my recommendation.
Thanks again for the kind words. Pecos
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They totally F-ed me over with a defective ar kit, no matter how many times I called and sent them a letter they never did anything for me. Brad my loacal gunsmith fixed my problem for $50, it would have been nice to get customer service like Brads from JAC.
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To follow up BillT,
I don't get people like this. We, who have specialized hobbies (in my case, bird dogs, shotguns, {hawks in a former life}, fly rods, SD guns and backpacking gear), well, we all live in a very small world. Its a lot smaller with the net. You offer a specialized service to a select group of folks? How long does it take for this stuff to get around? How many replacement customers do you have? Wally World can screw me over and laugh when I threaten to tell all my friends. A custom gunsmith? A pointing dog breeder? A flyrod company? Not so much. There are only so many of us out there who want their stuff. Give us what you promise, at whatever price point, and we'll be back. Screw us and we're gone. Either way, we'll take ten friends with us. What's so hard to understand about that?
FQ13 who will repeat that in business, doing the smart thing most often means doing the right thing.
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In marketing they have it figured that one dissatisfied customer will cost the store $X and X number of Customers.
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In marketing they have it figured that one dissatisfied customer will cost the store $X and X number of Customers.
What guys like this haven't figured out is that -1X customers is one less from a relatively small pool. Lets say 1000X. So, figure 1000 -1X. Plus -1X's friends, say -10X friends + everyone who listened to X bitch on a board like this one and decides not to take a chance, say -200X. Then figure in those who say, well, I haven't dealt with this company, but I've heard these bad things.....Pretty soon, that thousand customer base gets a lot smaller. Honestly, would you deal with these guys? All from screwing over one guy we trust.
FQ13
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One of our members posted a while ago, that he, politely, confronted JAC at SHOT show or NRA convention, and asked about the crap service.
Ciener's reply was "if you don't like it, don't buy it."
His investors should chain him in his shop and get some one with a personality to front for the Co.
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One of our members posted a while ago, that he, politely, confronted JAC at SHOT show or NRA convention, and asked about the crap service.
Ciener's reply was "if you don't like it, don't buy it."
His investors should chain him in his shop and get some one with a personality to front for the Co.
Or, his investors should chain him up in his shop and just get someone good with power tools to "negotiate" with him. ;D Arrogance only works if you're the only game in town. Once there's competition its a whole new game. Me, I'd rather buy second best if the guy will pick up the phone. This seems like a lesson JAC is about to learn the hard way, because I'm sure his investors have.
FQ13
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Years ago I bought a Ciener 22 version for AR15. Worked fine.
I was in no hurry and did receive my kit. (Sorry, too long ago to remember the time frame.)
While checking different boards, I found stories of people that had ordered the same conversion, had been waiting forever and had been told they were out of stock but at gun shows there was Ciener Co. selling the conversions (at PREMIUM prices) they said they were out of. ???
This was all hearsay and I had already received my order so I didn't really care, but if I had been one of those folks I would really have been pissed!
Not a company I will do business with again just because of too many bad stories from people I trust.
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While checking different boards, I found stories of people that had ordered the same conversion, had been waiting forever and had been told they were out of stock but at gun shows there was Ciener Co. selling the conversions (at PREMIUM prices) they said they were out of.
This doesn't only happen with people like Ciener. There is a company here in Goodyear, (suburb of Phoenix), Lancaster Arms. They make beautiful AK-47 rifles. The problem is they are terrible to deal with direct. You are required to pay 100% of your order cost up front. They then make people wait for months for guns they said would take weeks. These type of stories are all over Internet gun forums. I bought one from a local shop here in town and walked out with it in 5 minutes. A beautiful "Russian Red" Model. Atlantic Firearms sells them as well. But Lancaster themselves are a noted PITA to deal with direct.
After reading a thread about how people were waiting months for guns, I attended a local show here in town, and there was Lancaster. They had one of the biggest displays at the show, with literally dozens of guns for sale. All were cash and carry. This is the main reason I try never to deal direct with a company. You are always better off buying from a stocking dealer.
It's much the same with AR-15 rifles. I hear all of these horror stories about people waiting weeks or months for CNMG lowers and rifles from companies like Rock River Arms. I can go to shops within 15 minutes of my house and buy just about any AR-15 I want. When I bought my RRA LAR-9, 9 MM AR-15, I posted a pic of it on a forum, and a guy posted back that he had one just like it on order for over 4 MONTHS! When an individual orders from a large company, they get "put on the bottom of the list" way too often. This is why I try to avoid ordering direct. Yes, you'll pay a few bucks more, but you'll have your gun in fifteen minutes, not 6 months. I'm not very patient when it comes to waiting for something I want. Bill T.
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Uh guys and gals, the othe day I figured out what my problem with JAC is. On the bottom of his order sheet there is a typo. It states that some items could take 4 - 8 weeks for delivery. That's got to be a typo. I'm sure he means 4 - 8 months. That could explain why he takes so long and doesn't have time to acknowledge his customers.
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Jac is an asshole, deal with due Dilagence, /CMMG is making the same product, from Brownells, buy with confidence, JAC 1911 conversions actually work pretty well and pretty accurate just be sure you don't put any pressure on the slide, if you like the high thumb along the slide. The aluminum slide is easy to slow down.
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JAC was @ The Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoot Last Friday thru Sunday & had just about all their different units in stock & were busy showing their stuff to everyone, Didn't see many buying but that's the nature of the beast..
Do they have a phone # ??
There's gotta be a way to get directly ahold of them..
GOOD LUCK!!
Gary/Hk
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Know about the kit from Brownells for the AR 15, got one and works fine. The one I can't get is for the Beretta 92 series. Got some help from the Beretta forum and got one from Beretta USA. (Is that too many Berettas?) Works like a champ and is more accurate than I am by a long shot. Funny thing about that deal, I ordered the kit over the internet on a Sunday afternoon and had it in my hot little fist Thursday afternoon. That's service! I did make a complaint to the USPS but haven't heard anything from them. Central Florida BBB is still trying to contact JAC. I'll keep y'all updated about this JAC thing if you like.
Su Amigo, Pecos