The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: alfsauve on September 06, 2010, 07:52:36 AM
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Okay, I'm registered. Don't have my ammo finalized, but am working on it. If the 9mm bullets get here in time, I'll shoot reloads at 130 power factor. Otherwise it'll be a toss up between the .40S&W download and the 9mm with factory ammo.
If you're interested, here's the entire match including courses of fire.
Warning it's 7.5 MB and a PDF
http://www.gastatechampionships.com/img/2010/2010gastatematchbook.pdf (http://www.gastatechampionships.com/img/2010/2010gastatematchbook.pdf)
I finally figured out (had a friend explain to me) the secret USPSA classifying system. What I wanted to know was what was the base line for each stage. What was 100%. Evidently USPSA treats it as a big secret, though anybody can reverse engineer into it. So it's against USPSA policy to post (and they frown on members posting) the High Hit Factor for each stage. But with a little help and some digging I figure out I scored a 44% on my first classifier which is a "C" ranking.
Now if I can just figure out why all Production guns shot as a "minor" caliber. It would make more sense to give them a slight advantage over open and limited by scoring all production guns as a major caliber. At the very least, let .40 and .45 production be counted as major.
Oh well, one of my goals is to strive for accuracy anyway. This just pushes it a little more.
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Alf, if you figure it out let me know......and USPSA HQ also! LOL
Richard
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100% for classifying is the highest score of all scores received for that classifier for a given time. For a major match it will be the highest score for that match.
That is a basic and as simple as it gets. However, I think there is more to it than that. But ... If you look at it that way you will be close.
The production gun being minor only doesn't matter in comparison to the other areas. Your classification is only good for the division you are shooting in anyway. At least as long as it is a USPSA or SC event. It could be an issue if you go to some off the wall event, like Pro-AM, and they look at your classifications to rank you, you only have a production classification, and then you have to shoot major power level.
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alf...Since you are limited to 10+1 up the spout and 10 on reloads make sure you try to find a spot where you can reload on the move! You will save time if you keep standing reloads to a minimum even if you have to dump 2-3 rounds - but you knew that. If your first plan will have you dropping 5+ rounds try another plan (they should give you 5 min. to check over the stage). Watch shooters after the stage briefing checking over the stage and also try not to be the first shooter in the squad so that you can watch others shoot. Take double the ammo you think you will need. Carry equipment to take appart and clean your mags between stages just in case. Have a back-up gun in the same cal. if you have one. Carry a big lock bag just in case you have to take something appart with small springs or pins. Take things appart in the bag so that the springs/pins will not get lost if they go flying.
Most of all...stay safe and have fun!
Richard
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Now if I can just figure out why all Production guns shot as a "minor" caliber.
Sounds like a great time Alf! Not to worry, production shooters are not competing against the Limited or Open guys, so scoring us minor doesn't matter. It is my guess, but I think the reason USPSA scores everyone minor in Production is to avoid the equipment race that is characteristic of the higher tech Divisions.
Addict
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100% for classifying is the highest score of all scores received for that classifier for a given time.
That's mumbo jumbo, m58. What is "a given time"? What is the 100% the last time they figured it? That's the "secret". The HHF (high hit factor) for each classifier is............well classified. And evidently the process by which they choose them, from time to time, is well....not clearly understood either.
What I don't understand is why all the secrecy about what 100% is. Everyone figures it out anyway.
Not to worry, production shooters are not competing against the Limited or Open guys, so scoring us minor doesn't matter. It is my guess, but I think the reason USPSA scores everyone minor in Production is to avoid the equipment race that is characteristic of the higher tech Divisions.
Every match I've seen they always post "overall" rankings regardless of class. Yes, some production class shooters do very well, but why handicap them against the other divisions.
And by making all production minor class, you're just encouraging everyone to shoot 9mm and nothing else. Production, by definition, isn't an equipment race anyway. And in the limited and open divisions it isn't the caliber that drives the race guns.
I think there is some deep sinister plot against production shooters by the rich, evil open shooters. ;)
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That's mumbo jumbo, m58. What is "a given time"? I think it is the last quarter of a year (month you are in and two previous) What is the 100% the last time they figured it?You can figure that by dividing your score by your classification percentage (go to your listing on the web site and it will give you your scores and percentages) That's the "secret". The HHF (high hit factor) for each classifier is............well classified. And evidently the process by which they choose them, from time to time, is well....not clearly understood either.
What I don't understand is why all the secrecy about what 100% is. Everyone figures it out anyway. It's not a secret, they just don't post it. It can be easily figured out. The thing they keep secret, outside of individual match postings, is who had the high hit factor or 100%. That is a part of USPSA's privacy protection (your identity)
Every match I've seen they always post "overall" rankings regardless of class. Yes, some production class shooters do very well, but why handicap them against the other divisions.
And by making all production minor class, you're just encouraging everyone to shoot 9mm and nothing else. Production, by definition, isn't an equipment race anyway. And in the limited and open divisions it isn't the caliber that drives the race guns.
I think there is some deep sinister plot against production shooters by the rich, evil open shooters. ;) Just the opposite. Production was developed to exclude all the tricks and games carried on in the other divisions.
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Every match I've seen they always post "overall" rankings regardless of class. Yes, some production class shooters do very well, but why handicap them against the other divisions.
And by making all production minor class, you're just encouraging everyone to shoot 9mm and nothing else.
One that I do posts an overall score too! I love to look at that to see how many of the supergun guys I beat with my Glock, but that is just for fun and seeing where you scored overall. They should post a 'Production Finals" score as well, and that is the one that matters in USPSA.
You got it on the minor scoring. They are encouraging 9mm. The point of the division is to keep the costs of getting into USPSA low. 9mm is the cheapest centerfire ammo available, ergo thats what the rules support.
It would be fun if they had a LimProd Division that let you load your mags up all the way though...
Addict
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I think it is the last quarter of a year.....
Ah see, there isn't a link to USPSA that will states this clearly. Every one is guessing.
It's not a secret, they just don't post it.
It is against policy to post it. Which means that it is a secret as to the OFFICIAL HHFs. True everybody has figured it out, but they aren't official. Not sure what posting the HHF has to do with protecting individual names. They do post the TOP 20 names. True only members can view them.
ADDICT: If you want cheap then why not a .22lr division? And if all I have is a .40sw why handicap me? I'm still not seeing why, if I shoot a high power factor, I'm penalized in production. Other than to encourage me to move to Limited or Limited-10. Which is what someone at every match has said to me. Which seems to say USPSA looks upon production as a entry level step child and that those shooters will move onto the other (equipment race based) divisions.
[Evil smirk] [Deep voice w/ reverb] One day production shooters will rule the executive committee......wha wha wha! [/Deep voice][/Evil smirk]
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ADDICT: If you want cheap then why not a .22lr division? And if all I have is a .40sw why handicap me? I'm still not seeing why, if I shoot a high power factor, I'm penalized in production. Other than to encourage me to move to Limited or Limited-10. Which is what someone at every match has said to me. Which seems to say USPSA looks upon production as a entry level step child and that those shooters will move onto the other (equipment race based) divisions.
Heck yeah!! I would love a rimfire division. Seems like the people at USPSA are pretty stuck on minor power factor. If you could get a .22 up to 125 PF, maybe you could get them to lower the caliber requirement. I may be wrong but I dont think they are penalizing you for using higher power factor. I shot single stack last year and at the chrony I was hitting 189 PF. Didnt really care about the recoil, I just wanted a flat shooting reliable .45.
Thats just the rules of the game. If you handload you can download the round to minor power factor and blaze through the stages with puffball loads.
I think you are correct! Production is the free sample (or at least the cheap way to try it out) that attracts more shooters to USPSA
Either way, have fun!! Sounds like a great match.
Addict
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I may be wrong but I dont think they are penalizing you for using higher power factor.
I think you are correct! Production is the free sample (or at least the cheap way to try it out) that attracts more shooters to USPSA
First, just for those who may get the wrong impression. I'm not fixated on this issue or of why HHFs are not posted. I'm not out to change the rules, just to understand. I'm just curious and I want rules to make sense...or at least understand the why's.
Here's the best explanation I've found so for why all production is Minor. It's a safety issue with some production (unmodified) models of High Power Factor guns. Hence the rule encourages/forces serious competitors to use 9mm.
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[to wrap up the major power factor issue.....so why did I buy a .40 tactical? ]
I SHOT FRIDAY.. Great day...weather-wise, though starting to get a little hot by the time we finished. The initial squad schedule really sucked, only one stage in the morning then 7 after lunch. BUT when we got there they had re-done the schedules so everybody shot 4 stages morning and 4 in the afternoon. SWEET. This was a well organized match. First "major" match I've shot with score sheet stickers and where you initialed your score after each stage..... Walkie-Talkies at each stage and the Range Master had a golf cart to get to each stage and settle disputes quickly. Very smooth. At the same time very friendly with an informal feel. KUDO's to RBGC Practical Shooters for a well run match. While we didn't get started to almost 9am we finished by 3pm. A lot better than the original schedule.
Of course, Friday was for those of us who couldn't shoot on Saturday or Sunday which meant a lot of the ROs and other club members were trying to get their shooting in on Friday, so they could "work" the match on Sat/Sun. 3 soldiers from Army Marksmanship Unit where there with a bunch of ROTC cadets in tow. A couple of juniors and a number of ladies. (I should have had my picture taken with the AMU guys so I could post it with the caption, "Alf giving pointers to AMU shooters." ;D
The RM warned us there were a couple of scenarios where we might be tempted to break the 180 rule and sure enough one of my squad did on the second stage. Really felt sorry for him, but he understood. Fortunately, from a safety standpoint his gun just happened to be in slide-lock when he did it.....still reason for DQ.....but at least it didn't put anyone in jeopardy. He was there to earn his RO on Sat and Sun, so he really got some first hand learning in. On the plus side we had someone to do all our scoring so we didn't have to take turns.
How did I do? The final scores won't be posted till after Sunday night. But here's my breakdown.
A B C D M Tot FTE+NS Score Possible % Time HF
1 18 3 6 2 3 32 1 109 160 68% 60.11 1.8133
2 24 1 4 3 32 135 160 84% 62.42 2.1628
3 24 4 1 29 1 122 145 84% 37.47 3.2559
4 24 1 3 3 1 32 135 160 84% 57.57 2.3450
5 22 1 2 25 113 125 90% 35.43 3.1894
6 13 4 2 2 21 79 105 75% 44.97 1.7567
7 7 1 5 7 20 4 13 100 13% 42.40 0.3066
8 29 1 30 145 150 97% 44.82 3.2352
TOTAL 851 1105 77% 385.19 2.2093
I hope I've score this correctly.
Stages 1, 6 & 7 really screwed me up. And 7 was so simple! On stage 1 I got a practice run, because the RO and scorer messed up and the targets had already been pasted.
My goal was for accuracy and when my game was on..... I was there. Now what I need is to get my scoring percentage above 85% on all stages. That'll put me in the middle to high 3s for hit factor. Time will improve. My oldest son did an iPhone video of me on stage 1. As soon as I edit it I'll post it for you to see the awkward old man stumble through.
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Oh, and BTW. I did meet Mrs. Jessica A. Friday night who was scoping out the stages for her Saturday run. She is sponsored by Atlanta Arms.
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sounds like fun I hope you got lots of Picks ;D
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Can't wait to see the video! That is the best learning tool I have found. Every time I watch myself shoot, I say why did I do that??? :P
Glad you had fun.
Addict
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Alf...results should be up by now....howdya do?
Richard
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.results should be up by now....howdya do?
Nothing yet. I don't expect they'll get the scores entered until tonight. 250 competitors over 3 days.
Here the video of one of my worst stages. I only score 68% of the points and 60 seconds! Very awkward, very unsure. This and stage 7 just had me turned around. On the plus side on stage 8 I got 29 out of possible 30 "A"s!
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The $64,000 question is, "Did ya have fun?" :D
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The $64,000 question is, "Did ya have fun?" :D
Yes I did.
And the final scores were posted REAL early Monday morning at USPSA.com Okay, I finished above all the DQs and there were a number. Misses and FTE killed me....along with my slow times. That and I was competing against Dave Sevigny and Tom Litt, both Grand Master in my division! And that gives me bragging right though. I tell people as work, "Oh, this past weekend? Dave and Jessie and I were out doing a little shooting together. Showin' the AMU boys how it's done."
My first priority in my first match was safety......Not to get as much as a warning. Check.
Second goal, accuracy. On some stages I score as many points as the leaders. Check.
NEW:
Third goal....reduce misses.
Fourth goal....attack the course with a little more enthusiasm. Smoother movements.
See new posting about new club.
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looked like a hell of a lot of fun
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It would be fun if they had a LimProd Division that let you load your mags up all the way though...
They do - It's called Limited. if your gun is a 9 or you shoot minor 40, it's Limited minor.
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Here's the best explanation I've found so for why all production is Minor. It's a safety issue with some production (unmodified) models of High Power Factor guns. Hence the rule encourages/forces serious competitors to use 9mm.
Production is scored minor because USPSA didn't want to penalize shooters who used their 9mm carry guns. They limited capacity to 10 rounds so as not to penalize shooters in states that have 10 round mag limits. It's an even playing field for everyone.
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Production is scored minor because USPSA didn't want to penalize shooters who used their 9mm carry guns.
If you have a link to a USPSA document to support that I'll go along with it. But here's a couple of my thoughts along those lines.
a) That would then penalize someone who only owns a .40 or .45 by making them score minor.
b) That would violate principles 2 & 3 of IPSC
2 Accuracy, power and speed are the equivalent elements of practical shooting and practical competition must be conducted in such a way as to evaluate these elements equally.
3 Firearm types are not separated, all compete together without handicap. This does not apply to the power of the firearms as power is an element to be recognized and rewarded.
http://ipsc.org/ipsccon4.htm#Principles (http://ipsc.org/ipsccon4.htm#Principles)
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If you have a link to a USPSA document to support that I'll go along with it. But here's a couple of my thoughts along those lines.
As I'm sure you know, the USPSA board minutes are fairly short and non-encyclopedic. The only direct mention of purpose in the BOD minutes is from the 1/22/2000: "The purpose of production division is to open USPSA to new shooters, manufacturers and sponsors."
The specific rules for Production division were formally approved at the next BOD meeting in March of 2000, but the discussion related to power factor was not included.
Of course, given that it appears Production division originated in IPSC and was subsequently adopted by USPSA the IPSC board minutes might prove a better place to work.
That said, everything I've ever read or heard from USPSA BOD members, Area directors, or shooters who were active at the time has made it clear the division was created to allow commonly used and carried 9mm guns to be competitive, and to make the sport more attractive to shooters who were turned off by the "arms race" in Limited and Open. IMHO, it worked.
a) That would then penalize someone who only owns a .40 or .45 by making them score minor.
b) That would violate principles 2 & 3 of IPSC
http://ipsc.org/ipsccon4.htm#Principles (http://ipsc.org/ipsccon4.htm#Principles)
There is no penalty for 40 and 45 shooters. They can download and shoot the same power factors as 9mm, or they can load to 165+ PF and shoot in Lim/Lim10. They can still shoot major in Prod if they want. But if they scored Production maj/min like other divisions, the 9mm would be non-competitive.
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No matter how much you try to "splain" to me (using my best Ricky Ricardo accent) about "commonly used and carried" it still violates principle 3. Not number 43, or number 23, but number 3. They didn't put it at the bottom of the list, but at the top, meaning it's very important to the concept of IPSC.
It is always a choice, lower power, lower recoil, fewer points for non-A hits; higher power, higher recoil more points for non-A's. It's the principle the other divisions follow. I'm not buying the "most people have" reason. It discriminates against those who only have a .40 and would like to get into the game. Besides what's most common for a LEO to have these days? 9mm or .40?
For me, while I don't agree with the reasoning, the "unspoken" safety issue still tops my list.
And that's my story and I'm sticking with it.
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Alf, contact HQ and see if they can give you a reasonable answer.
Richard
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As I said many posts ago, I'm not fixated on this. When I see inconsistencies, (like violating principles 2 &3), it just makes me curious. Those who've been intimately involved, who've given their time and money to establishing this game have their reasons. They, I'm sure have debated it long and hard and they reached this conclusion. I'm a newcomer to the game and am more curious than anything. It's a game and those are the rules.
I'll just shoot my 9mm, that's all.
Alf, contact HQ and see if they can give you a reasonable answer.
I don't think they can "publish" a straight answer either way. Either theory will alienate some group. Either Production shooters or a manufacturer.
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it still violates principle 3. Not number 43, or number 23, but number 3. They didn't put it at the bottom of the list, but at the top, meaning it's very important to the concept of IPSC.
Apparently the BODs of both IPSC and USPSA disagree.
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Apparently the BODs of both IPSC and USPSA disagree.
So that bring us back to full circle. They had their reasons and made their decision. Just curious why. I may go digging, when I have time in the IPSC and USPSA archives.