The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: twyacht on September 07, 2010, 08:32:02 PM
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Here we go,....an "evil" assault rifle...
Long Island Man Arrested For Defending Home With AK-47
Says Many Gang Members Were Coming After His Family
September 7, 2010 7:19 PM
UNIONDALE, N.Y. (CBS 2) — He was arrested for protecting his property and family.
But it’s how the Long Island man did it that police say crossed the line.
He got an AK-47 assault rifle, pulled the trigger and he ended up in jail, reports CBS 2’s Pablo Guzman.
George Grier said he had to use his rifle on Sunday night to stop what he thought was going to be an invasion of his Uniondale home by a gang he thought might have been the vicious “MS-13.” He said the whole deal happened as he was about to drive his cousin home.
“I went around and went into the house, ran upstairs and told my wife to call the police. I get the gun and I go outside and I come into the doorway and now, by this time, they are in the driveway, back here near the house. I tell them, you know, ‘Can you please leave?’ Grier said.
Grier said the five men dared him to use the gun; and that their shouts brought another larger group of gang members in front of his house.
“He starts threatening my family, my life. ‘Oh you’re dead. I’m gonna kill your family and your babies. You’re dead.’ So when he says that, 20 others guys come rushing around the corner. And so I fired four warning shots into the grass,” Grier said.
Grier was later arrested. John Lewis is Grier’s attorney.
“What he’s initially charged with – A D felony reckless endangerment — requires a depraved indifference to human life, creating a risk that someone’s going to die. Shooting into a lawn doesn’t create a risk of anybody dying,” Lewis said.
Grier said he knew Nassau County Police employ the hi-tech “ShotSpotter” technology in his area and that the shooting would bring police in minutes. Cops told Guzman he was very cooperative.
Grier also said he was afraid the gang outside his house was the dreaded MS-13. And Nassau County Police Lt. Andrew Mulraine, head of the gang unit, said MS-13 has 2,000 members in the county.
“They’re probably the most organized. They almost have a military hierarchy within the gang, so they are the most organized gang we encounter on a daily basis,” Mulraine said.
You may think a person has the right to defend their home. But the law says you can only use physical force to deter physical force. Grier said he never saw anyone pull out a gun, so a court would have to decide on firing the gun.
Police determined Grier had the gun legally. He has no criminal record. And so he was not charged for the weapon.
That ShotSpotter technology pinpoints where a gun has been fired within 35 feet. Police said it also detected two other shootings in nearby Roosevelt that night.
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/09/07/long-island-man-arrested-for-defending-home-with-ak-47/
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Sorry, whatever the circumstance, threaten my children? Their lucky I didn't have a M-60.
Bloomberg does not approve of this kind of defense....
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You beat me to posting this. Maybe if he'd used an AR? Seriously, a felony? At that rate he might as well have shot one or two. >:( If ever there was a circumstance where you needed an EBR this is it.
On a serious note, it does point out the wisdom of staying inside your own home.
FQ13
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George Grier said he had to use his rifle on Sunday night to stop what he thought was going to be an invasion of his Uniondale home by a gang he thought might have been the vicious “MS-13.”
Sounds like a lot of conjecture and guess work with out anything to base it on.
Do YOU "go to the gun" every time someone has a yelling match ?
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George Grier said he had to use his rifle on Sunday night to stop what he thought was going to be an invasion of his Uniondale home by a gang he thought might have been the vicious “MS-13.”
Sounds like a lot of conjecture and guess work with out anything to base it on.
Do YOU "go to the gun" every time someone has a yelling match ?
If there are 20-30 of them on my property threatening to kill me and my babies - yes.
Tom, is FQ rubbing off on you? ??? ::)
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............... Cops told Guzman he was very cooperative.
He cooperated himself into being arrested.
I'd rather my news story say, "He wasn't charged."
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The incident occurred in this middle - to - northeastish stretch of the right coast where you have no right of defense. If he had been cornered in a room inside his house by these guys then he would have had a better case. When you leave the house and discharge a firearm, you're basically in deep s***.
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From the article:
You may think a person has the right to defend their home. But the law says you can only use physical force to deter physical force. Grier said he never saw anyone pull out a gun, so a court would have to decide on firing the gun.
So, 20 or 30 thugs are threatening him and his family and he is supposed to wrestle with them?
Some one needs to explain "Disparity of Force" to these folks.
Also, in this boxing match, will The Marquess of Queensberry rules apply?
Sounds like this is moving in the direction of England where a man was arrested for brandishing a stick at a gang threatening him.
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Being arrested and being convicted are two very different things.
Lesson: Shut up and let your lawyer do the talking to the police.
Ratcatcher 55 who does not fire warning shots.
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FTA;
"Grier said the five men dared him to use the gun; and that their shouts brought another larger group of gang members in front of his house."
He went for the gun long before there were that many. It just don't sound right.
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In the state of Texas, if someone is on your property and you believe them to be a threat to yourself, family, or possessions, you can use deadly force. This guy didn't approach what I would consider the proper response to the situation, but he still ends up in jail. East coast is a bad place to be...
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In the state of Texas, if someone is on your property and you believe them to be a threat to yourself, family, or possessions, you can use deadly force. This guy didn't approach what I would consider the proper response to the situation, but he still ends up in jail. East coast City is a bad place to be...
NY sure as hell ain't Texas. ;D
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What he did was illegal even if he was afraid for his families safety. He should be given a stern talking to and have to present to a judge or the police evidence (some targets from the range) to show that he is capable with his weapon.
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Mandatory NRA class (es ) and a Best Defense Box set ;D
One thing from the article though, should probably be discussed in the Defense and Tactics Forum.
FTA;
"Grier said the five men dared him to use the gun;"
My solution is a bean bag or some such as the first round, I know "rubber bullets" are available in several calibers.
While the first loud mouth is nursing his welt, you can politely point out that, Yes, you will shoot.
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I beleave firing a warning shot is techincally illegal every where.
There has to be alot more to this story.
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I don't believe in warning shots, and I don't believe in threatening, Personally I would have retreated and took up a good defensive position and awaited police response, if they came through the door, well then its time to act, act hard and fast make it all count. At the most on initial contact, told them in no small way to leave my property, police are on their way. Then back in the house, lock the doors, keep 911 on the phone, putting shots into the ground impresses no one, and achieves nothing. I don't think he deserves jail time, but does need someone to take him aside and ask, WTF were you going to do?? He was escalating, not deescalating, I am not going to take on 20+ individuals in my front yard, with any weapon, hide and watch and wait. Hide behind hard cover.
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So if the police were there in minutes, what happened to these "20 or 30 gang members"? Were they detained and their immigration status checked? Were they found to be here illegally? Were they members of "MS-13"? Did ICE get involved? You read this story and it's like the perpetrators didn't exist, or else they vanished into thin air?? Something stinks. Bill T.
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Something stinks, oh yes.
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I hate to armchair quarter back this stuff. But, assuming the facts are correct, the guy was scared and pissed and with good reason. Problem is, pissed overrode scared. Scared will keep you out of jail, pissed gets you locked up. Why go outside? Why respond to verbal confrontation by shooting? The cops were on the way, and your family was inside. Why weren't you? Why be the first to fire when yours was the only gun visible? As others have stated he should not be locked up. Also, he was under loads of stress and can be forgiven for not thinking things through as carefully as we can here. Still, its worth playing devil's advocate for a bit. Every question I asked the DA will ask. It just seems that if you can stay inside your home with the cops on the phone and only shoot if they enter, even in NY, the law is on your side. Go outside and escalate? Not a good idea, as the jury will have to ask itself why you left the safety of your home and started firing warning shots.
FQ13 who hopes the guy gets off, but there is a lesson to be learned here. Make them come to you.
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What I find interesting is when you compare the laws of different states regarding this sort of thing directly to an incident such as this one, and how the legal dust settles afterward. A good example would be comparing this incident to the Joe Horn incident in Texas where a citizen took matters into his own hands and shot and killed 2 men who were burglarizing his neighbors home, and were absolutely a total zero threat to him personally.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn_shooting_controversy
In Long Island N.Y. this guy is gutted, filleted, and fried for simply firing a few warning shots at 20 to 30 gang members who were in the process of terrorizing his family. This is where the NRA, along with the Republican right needs to exercise their effort in getting some of these silly municipal gun laws changed so this country has a more of a legal, level playing field when something like this takes place.
Look at how lopsided these laws are. This poor guy in N.Y. could go away on felony charges, and very well might especially if some left wing, anti gun prosecutor gets his or her hands on this and decides to make an example out of him for political purposes. Remember New York is, and always has been, extremely anti gun, and is the home of Michael Bloomberg and Charles Schumer. These guys are 2 of the most rabid anti gun politicians on planet Earth. Bloomberg has a history of putting anti gun matters in the spotlight to set examples. Remember his New Jersey gun shop law suit debacle?
On the other hand Joe Horn walked and was not even charged because the prosecutor doubted they could win the case. This in spite of the fact Horn was on the phone with a 911 Operator at the time, and told the operator he was going to put the phone down, and go outside and shoot both of the perps, which is exactly what he did. Also, there was supposedly a police officer present in his car who witnessed the whole thing! If this had happened to the Long Island guy, they'd lock him up and throw away the key for good! This is bull$h!t when you have such drastically different opposing laws in the same country regarding guns and self defense of property and persons. This is a classic example of what happens when you have too many lawyers involved in a legal system. It becomes a train wreck. Joe Horn is probably making money off of this whole deal, (which there is nothing wrong with), and the Long Island guy will more than likely go bankrupt from legal expenses this will in fact generate. All from within the same borders of the same country. Totally ridiculous. Bill T.
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Tell that to the Framers Bill. On the one hand you are right, on the other you need to be reminded that we are FEDERAL republic. The laws in Mississippi and Massachusetts vary because the culture differs. Gay in Ms. and feeling oppressed because you cant marry your sweetie? Cambridge Mass. is a nice town. Disgusted in Mass. by the married lesbians living next door? Cambridge Ms. is likewise a pretty nice place (with better weather).
The gun issue is tricky becuse the 2A is a national right. Therefore local laws should not be allowed to vary very much, at least in that there should be a minimum floor, but hopefully not a maximum ceiling, for gun rights. However, when it comes to SD, local culture will always prevail. What would get you prosecuted in NYC will cause a Tx. prosecuter to shrug and ask "What did the guy expect was going to happen"? I'm not sure this a bad thing. I don't want our gun rights set by the lowest common denominator. Don't like your state's laws? Its easy to move.
FQ13 who just throws this out for discussion's sake
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The gun issue is tricky becuse the 2A is a national right.
So is the right to defend your life. The only problem is the liberal left thinks the person who is willing to do you in has more rights than you do to defend yourself against him. Anywhere liberals exist in any great numbers they cause a danger to the general public in this regard. Homosexuals don't want to kill me. Bill T.
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His only defense is if he can convince the judge/jury that, in his estimation of the situation, the gang was on the verge of advancing on his house which would have resulted in an imminent threat to himself and family and his killing some in self defense. He believed that by firing warning shots safely into the ground, it might dissuade the gang from advancing or, at least, delay them until the police could arrive.
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To quote the article:
Grier was later arrested. John Lewis is Grier’s attorney.
“What he’s initially charged with – A D felony reckless endangerment — requires a depraved indifference to human life, creating a risk that someone’s going to die. Shooting into a lawn doesn’t create a risk of anybody dying,” Lewis said.
I think the DA is going to have a hard time proving reckless endangerment if it goes to a jury trial. He should settle for misdemeanor illegal discharge charge and let it go. But you can bet he wont.
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This is going to wind up costing this guy thousands of dollars out of his own pocket before this thing gets resolved either way. That is the real crime here. As if the economy isn't bad enough, this guy now has this thing hanging over his head. Bernard Goetz isn't living in Beverly Hills because of what he went through, and he had a lot of financial deals come his way from his incident. No one ever wins except the lawyers when something like this happens. Vincent Bugliosi made a nice living off Manson's prosecution. He's still cashing in from it today. Bill T.
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This is going to wind up costing this guy thousands of dollars out of his own pocket before this thing gets resolved either way. That is the real crime here. As if the economy isn't bad enough, this guy now has this thing hanging over his head. Bernard Goetz isn't living in Beverly Hills because of what he went through, and he had a lot of financial deals come his way from his incident. No one ever wins except the lawyers when something like this happens. Vincent Bugliosi made a nice living off Manson's prosecution. He's still cashing in from it today. Bill T.
And until that is no longer the case, "citizens" will always be the ones who have to defend themselves in court for defending their families at home.
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What I find interesting is when you compare the laws of different states regarding this sort of thing directly to an incident such as this one, and how the legal dust settles afterward. A good example would be comparing this incident to the Joe Horn incident in Texas where a citizen took matters into his own hands and shot and killed 2 men who were burglarizing his neighbors home, and were absolutely a total zero threat to him personally.
Bill,
Joe Horn witnessed and interrupted a felony. This gentleman did not. He responded to verbal threats by getting a firearm and discharged his weapon. The DA will make the case bringing out the rifle escalated the confrontation. He could have waited inside for the police to arrive with his rifle at the ready.
I'm unsure if NY law even allow the use of deadly force for breaking and entering. I would be surprised if it did.
I feel for the guy. I too would rather keep the fight outside my home if my wife and family was inside. Here in KY I doubt this would ever get past the grand jury stage if his story is close to being true.
It is also quite possible Mr. Grier is the lhothead and got into it with some local teens, not MS-13 and there were never 20-30 gang members making threats against him. His lawyer is only spinning this to make his client the victim instead of a felony dumbass. For now I’ll give Mr. Grier the benefit of the doubt.
If it was legal to shoot smart mouth punks I would be broke by now. Ammo is so expensive these days.
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What is NY STATE (we know the City sux ) Law on "assault" weapons ?
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We still have the ban in place. You can own pre ban guns. New guns are limited to fixed stock, no bayonet lug, no large capacity mags. Pre ban mags are okay. In short...it sucks to be here.
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Then he is probably in violation just for owning the AK ?