The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: twyacht on September 09, 2010, 05:16:57 PM
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Caught this story, and vid. Thumbs up that no one was hurt, and the robbery was thwarted. Happened this week in Wisconsin.
But IMHO, things could have gone real wrong, real quick. What defines a Good Samaritan in this case?
Thoughts? Good Idea? or Very Bad Idea? Robber got away, empty handed, but what if?
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/crime-scene/around-the-nation/video-customer-foils-bank-robb.html
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What a maroon! Stooooopid!
He could easily have gotten the teller shot with that stupid stunt. If you feel that you absolutely have to do something in this situation, your first concern should be getting control of the gun. Again, Stooooopid.
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Stupid move. It's just money and banks have insurance. He could have just as easily caused the robber to flinch and shoot the teller. Since he didn't do anything to control the gun, he could have been shot himself.
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It didn't look like a real gun to me.
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Very stupid move. At the least, 2 people should be dead, and would have been if the robber were even halfway a pro. The 2? The teller and the maroon who jumped him.
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Agreed with the above. Very rarely is anyone shot in a bank hold up as everyone knows the drill. No muss, no fuss, even money bet as to whether robber catches a dye pack. Playing the odds, I wouldn't escalate it like that.
BUT....BUT, what really pisses me off is the guy who watched it all play out and did nothing. Granted, doing nothing would be my first impulse, but once Captain America turns it into a wrestling match for the gun? Piling on seems like the right (and smart) thing to do. Its not just watching a guy walk away from a robbery. Now, someone is fighting for his life against an armed thug. Stupid or not, its seems that honor would demand that you jump in here. You can punch "our hero" in the face later for dragging you into it, but once its on, no room for neutrals. Am I wrong here?
FQ13
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Would have had to been there to give a good answer, his move stupid as it was not controlling the gun, once away from the teller, I don't know, disarming and wrestling the guy to the ground, maybe, full nelson instead of a neck break, the neck break takes about the same move and gets someones attention fast, I have had it done to me and instant panic about your body takes over. Seems like it all came out in the end, but a hard judgement call.. If I thought I could contribute without getting anyone else hurt, then Maybe. Just maybe.
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IF ya want to be a 'hero' pull yer own piece, stick it in his ear and PULL THE TRIGGER! If ya ain't gonna do that, then let it alone!
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Bank robbers are just like us, they want to get their money and get the f*ck out of there, Like others have commented, some one else's, insured money isn't even worth the robber getting hurt. I agree with both FQ's comments.
If some one else acts, you can't very well leave him out to dry.
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I agree with staying the hell out of it, but I wasn't there. Maybe the guy seemed panicky like he seemed sure to shoot the teller and the bystander felt compelled to save her. He obviously had the element of surprise on the goblin, as bad guy was completely oblivious to samaritan's approach. It didn't appear that the gun was controlled, so at least that was stupid. In the end, most of the desired outcome was achieved. While there may have been mistakes, it's good to see that there are people willing to take risks for others. This may be a good example of how Americans won't allow hijackers to take our planes again. Let's roll!
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There are two minds on this.
1) Leave them alone, give them what they want, hope they Play Nice. But, as Chamberlain found out, they want more, demand more, and stop caring how they get to that end.
2) Let them know we won't tolerate you sticking guns in our faces, beating clerks, terrorizing good people and profit from them.
In a nut shell, criminals are at a minimum sociopaths (sorry, PC is 'have a social disorder'), possibly psychopaths. They are a cancer. They stop doing what they are doing only when it adversely affects them. Many get off on the fear they cause. What happens to others doesn't matter, and sooner or later the guy will hurt someone. Talking to them doesn't help, letting the violent ones out of jail is a mistake.
Interviewing criminals n a NJ prison, a journalist was told over and over again (paraphrase, I'll see if I can get the exact quote)." I take what I want. If you're man enough to stop me, you might." Bottom line was they all felt entitled to your possessions.
Stop any violent felony you are capable of stopping competently. Let the misdemeanors alone for later investigation.
Time to act like civilized men again, not the doormats we are constantly told we must be in the face of evil.
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Fatman, that psycho crap may work on some types of crime but bank robbery is a chump crime, usually committed by some loser who does not have an employer to embezzle from.
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In any case, if every time a looser tried to rob a bank, every other person in there piled on and beat the crap out of them, we'd find gas station and convenience store robberies would increase and bank robberies would decrease.
There would be the risk that good guys could get hurt, but if the bad guy always got creamed, the lesson would be taught.
Sort of like those monkeys in that cage.
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Thing is this, Banks are relatively large corporations that, rather than risk any type of liability, instruct their employees to just give up the money, and get the robber the heck out as quickly as possible.
Having a CCW does not make you a cop, it also does not make you a bank guard.
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90% of bank robberys that take place, you could be standing right next to them the robber and not even know it.
The take over robbery is very rare.
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Fatman, that psycho crap may work on some types of crime but bank robbery is a chump crime, usually committed by some loser who does not have an employer to embezzle from.
Sorry Tom. Left out a category that is synonymous with criminal activity, Antisocial Personality Disorder. My bad, having a Psych degree and quite a few CJ courses there's no excuse for omitting this:
On the other hand, the field of criminology tends to treat APD as so synonymous, in fact, with criminal behavior that practically all convicted criminals (65-75%) have it, with criminologists often referring to it as a "wastebasket" category. Antisocials come is all shapes and sizes, and psychologists consider the juvenile version of it to be a juvenile conduct disorder. The main characteristic of it is a complete and utter disregard for the rights of others and the rules of society. They seldom show anxiety and don't feel guilt. Although many people would hope that there's an effective treatment, there's really no effective treatment for them other than locking them up in a secure facility with such rigid rules that they cannot talk their way out. A full list of APD traits would include:
List of Antisocial Personality Disorder Traits
Sense of entitlement; Unremorseful; Apathetic to others; Unconscionable behavior; Blameful of others; Manipulative and conning; Affectively cold; Disparate understanding; Socially irresponsible; Disregardful of obligations; Nonconforming to norms; Irresponsible
whereas the DSM-IV "clinical" features of Antisocial Personality Disorder (with a person having at least three of these characteristics) are:
Clinical Symptoms for an Antisocial Personality Disorder Diagnosis
1. Failure to conform to social norms; 2. Deceitfulness, manipulativeness; 3. Impulsivity, failure to plan ahead; 4. Irritability, aggressiveness; 5. Reckless disregard for the safety of self or others; 6. Consistent irresponsibility; 7. Lack of remorse after having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another person
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Sorry Tom. Left out a category that is synonymous with criminal activity, Antisocial Personality Disorder. My bad, having a Psych degree and quite a few CJ courses there's no excuse for omitting this:
That's kind of like hearing that a friend has secretly been a lawyer or politician all along.
I feel violated ;D
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Sorry Tom. Left out a category that is synonymous with criminal activity, Antisocial Personality Disorder. My bad, having a Psych degree and quite a few CJ courses there's no excuse for omitting this:
List of Antisocial Personality Disorder Traits
Sense of entitlement; Unremorseful; Apathetic to others; Unconscionable behavior; Blameful of others; Manipulative and conning; Affectively cold; Disparate understanding; Socially irresponsible; Disregardful of obligations; Nonconforming to norms; Irresponsible
Clinical Symptoms for an Antisocial Personality Disorder Diagnosis
1. Failure to conform to social norms; 2. Deceitfulness, manipulativeness; 3. Impulsivity, failure to plan ahead; 4. Irritability, aggressiveness; 5. Reckless disregard for the safety of self or others; 6. Consistent irresponsibility; 7. Lack of remorse after having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another person
You are right, Tom, it does sound like the majority of Congress is described here.
Also some states do have an effective treatment option other than incarceration as do many citizens in Castle Doctrine states.
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I know there are a lot of different angles on this one, but the bottom line is this guy did something. Was it the best move both strategically and tactically?—probably not.
Asking the what-if's doesn't ever get anywhere.
What if someone was hurt/killed?
What if after the teller this guy demanded wallets/purses waving his weapon all over the place?
What if the guy fled and took a hostage somewhere else?
I do think in this situation, luck was on his side. Most criminals work in pairs and if another was present, he could have ended up dead real quickly.
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It didn't look like a real gun to me.
Whether it was a real gun, or not, it was a very stupid, dangerous thing to do.
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I worked as an armored truck driver for a bit and we were always told to drop the bag and give it up. The driver is supposed to just drive a way w/o the other guy and call headquarters. It sure would suck to be that other guy, standing there with a gun in your face and watching your armored ride drive away.
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I worked as an armored truck driver for a bit and we were always told to drop the bag and give it up. The driver is supposed to just drive a way w/o the other guy and call headquarters. It sure would suck to be that other guy, standing there with a gun in your face and watching your armored ride drive away.
Airline pilots don't leave the cockpit anymore either. Sort of the same thing except the airline doesn't dump it's passengers in mid-air. :-\ :-\
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I worked as an armored truck driver for a bit and we were always told to drop the bag and give it up. The driver is supposed to just drive a way w/o the other guy and call headquarters. It sure would suck to be that other guy, standing there with a gun in your face and watching your armored ride drive away.
And here I quote that noted moral philosopher Ice-T. "And how did he go out? He went out like a bitch". Sorry, but you leave no man behind. The company can screw itself. If they just want the money, I'll help them load it in their car. If they're threatening my partner, we have issues.
FQ13
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Stupid? It worked didn't it. Maybe he just got tired of watching his neighborhood going to shit, and tired of just complaining about it on a forum somewhere.
If you're not willing to die for the principles that you say you live for, those priciples can't be that important.
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I worked as an armored truck driver for a bit and we were always told to drop the bag and give it up. The driver is supposed to just drive a way w/o the other guy and call headquarters. It sure would suck to be that other guy, standing there with a gun in your face and watching your armored ride drive away.
Hmm. First, not good to tell the whole world what your procedure was; second despite what you were told, the new game seems to be just shoot armored car guys, so they're not going to just drop stuff and leave anyway.
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Interesting thread.
When I was watching the video I kept looking for the accomplice of the one being wrestled. Badguys are like snakes. When you see one, there's usually another one nearby.
Biker