The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Reloading => Topic started by: billt on September 15, 2010, 07:15:15 AM
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I've been asked this question a lot over the years by a lot of guys who wanted to be able to shoot more for less, but aren't sure reloading was, "right for them". The main issue with reloading cost is where you obtain your components. Too many people pick up a Cabela's catalog, and using their component prices as a baseline, dismiss reloading as "not worth it". Like anything else you buy in quantity, you must shop around for the best price if you expect to save. In over 40 years of shooting and reloading, I've picked up enough empty shotgun hulls and brass off the ground to fill a 2 car garage solid. Today, as more people are getting into reloading it is becoming more difficult, but there is still a lot of brass available for the picking. Especially in the cheaper, more common calibers like 9 MM and .223.
It was the same 25 years ago when .308 and .30-06 was then considered to be common and cheap at the time. I would collect boxes of the stuff because most shooters couldn't be bothered with it. I would even have guys come over and ask me if I wanted their brass, after they saw me scrounging for it. I always said yes, even if it was for a caliber I didn't reload for at the time. Sooner or later I did, and that brass was put into good use.
Many leave 9 MM and .223 on the ground at my local club because they feel it is simply too cheap to bother with. While that may or may not be true today, you can bet the cheap prices won't last much longer. I'm surprised they've lasted this long. The days of factory, brass cased, reloadable 9 MM for under $10.00 a box aren't going to be with us much longer, as the prices of the raw materials used in ammunition keep rising, (Brass, Copper, and Lead). It is one of the main reasons so many manufacturers are going to steel cased ammunition. Especially the Russian manufacturers. Brass is a premium commodity in that country. Even American companies like Hornady are now producing steel cased 7.62 X 39 MM ammo at premium prices.
Another area shooters better start paying attention to is lead. You are already seeing places like Cabela's touting an entire section devoted to "Lead Free Ammo". I have well over 2 tons of lead based bullet casting material stockpiled. Most of it I got for nothing where I worked over the years. I also have purchased many multi cavity bullet molds in various configurations over the years. My wife and I purchased a ton of lead shot, (80, 25 pound bags), direct from Scott Shot up in St. George Utah some years back for $12.00 a bag. We still have a large portion of it. Today it sells anywhere from $30.00 to $45.00 a bag.
Some indoor ranges already do not allow lead based ammunition to be shot, and California has mandated lead free ammo for hunting in several counties. A "lead ban" can only be exercised so far. You'll always be able to shoot lead somewhere. But with that said you have to have it to be able to shoot it. When I'm bored in the cooler weather, I'll cast up a few thousand bullets. It didn't cost me anything for the metal to do it, and that translates into even more savings and shooting.
As I said, I've been doing this sort of thing since I got out of high school in 1970, 40 years ago. Over the decades it has paid off well, and continues to do so. For someone starting out in reloading it still can, you just have to shop carefully for your components. Paying too much for anything negates any savings you might experience from it down the road. Reloading components are like anything else, the cheaper they can be obtained, the "better" they are. Bill T.
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From my experience (everyone's may differ).
The more important point to consider than the cost in dollars is the cost in time. To make real QUALITY reloads that are equal to or better than factory ammo it takes TIME! Lots of time. Then it takes time. Don't forget to consider that you'll also have to spend a considerable amount of TIME!!!
ESPECIALLY if your trying to do reloading on the cheap! I've watched guys with the fanciest of fancy digital scales make mistakes and damage their own and others people's guns when they start trying to rush things (why I will NEVER shoot ANYONE elses reloads!).
When you start shopping for equipment you'll consistantly see tools that cost $15, and tools that cost $300 that do exactly the same job! Only real differance is that the $300 one will usually do things more efficiently. Saving... Well, you guessed it! ;)
After your first few hundred rounds I promise your REALLLLLLLY going to want that expensive tool! There goes your savings! :( But it doesn't stop there. Oh no! Once you get used to how nice THAT $300 tool works, the other half dozen or so things you've been using SURE start to get on your nerves with how inefficent THEY are, ;) Before you know it you have enough money in tools to have bought a VERY nice new rifle!
This will lead you to either give up on the whole thing (wasting the initial investment completely). Or you are several hundred dollars, even well over a grand into this "horrible habbit" that has consumed your whole life and every wakeing moment! :o ;D
What I'm saying here is. DON"T DO IT! If your just wanting to save a few bucks on your shooting. Odd's of it really working out to your financial benefit are SLIM.
If your really, really interested in "rolling your own", learning all the minute details of the process, and want to fine tune your shooter's to their very last ten thousandth of an inch of performance... JUMP ON IN! The waters fine! ;D
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If you have lots of time, maybe. If you don't have lots of time, then no.
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The more important point to consider than the cost in dollars is the cost in time. To make real QUALITY reloads that are equal to or better than factory ammo it takes TIME! Lots of time. Then it takes time. Don't forget to consider that you'll also have to spend a considerable amount of TIME!!!
Before you know it you have enough money in tools to have bought a VERY nice new rifle!
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=13181.0
I don't know about you but I don't consider 23 hours to reload 2,350 rounds of ammunition all that much time. And I've found it to be quite the opposite. Those expensive tools have saved me enough over the years to pay for several nice new rifles. Bill T.
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lets see my shop labor rate was 195/ hour. =4485 + reloaing costs.
two years ago, I would have lost money to reload. Now It might be a "wash". For the most part, my job is very boring, the last thing I need is a hobby that is very boreing. I know some people don't find reloading boring, I do.
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Maybe it's me, but I'm not buying into this whole "time" thing. I mean come on, unless you're the CEO of Oracle or Cisco Systems, nobody is that busy. As a matter of fact, if you've got the time to participate on this forum, you've got plenty of time avaliable for you to reload. Now, if you don't want to for whatever reason, that's fine, but the whole "time" deal just doesn't hold water. Besides, everyone's "time" is worth $1,500.00 an hour, just ask them. ::)
Some parts of the reloading process, like case prep is boring, but to me owning a firearm that I did not have the capability to make ammo for, (with the exception of rimfires), for me would seem incomplete. The simple fact that I've never owned a rifle I couldn't make shoot better with good handloads is reason enough for me to do it. Realistically, what's the point of paying upwards of over $1,400.00 for a good shooting, accurate rifle, then sinking another $1,000.00+ into optics, rings, and mounts, then turn around and have to settle for mediocre group sizes with factory ammo?
For me reloading shotshells paid off when Winchester AA's and Remington STS's were $5.00 a box. Now that they're $8.00+ it's even more beneficial. The same can be said when Federal American Eagle .223 was $3.00 a box. Now it's over double that, so the same deal applies.
No matter how you cut it, there is no way I could afford to shoot as much as I do if I didn't reload. Yes, I put a lot more downrange than the average shooter. With that said If I did not reload that would still be possible, it would just cost me a lot more to do it. As for time, there is no meter running. It's free until you die. Bill T.
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I take it you have never owned a small biz,
Trust me, 12 hours is a SHORT DAY, 15-16 is the norm. Trust me, with 5-10 employees, the sheer ammount of paper work is insane. Now add in invoices and record keeping, I kid you not, 3 hours of paper work a day is common.
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The reason hand loading is time consuming for me is the amount of attention I put into each round. Example: I measure EVERY round down to +/- 1 or 2 grains of powder. Not the weight measurement of grains. I mean hand picking out each individual little speck of powder. And STILL end up with what I call "A, B, and C grade rounds" when I'm done. It's easily a few hours to get a single box of "A" grade rounds!
I've also got a place to hunt where I can take 1,200+ yard shots. ;D
HECK YEAH! It's worth it to me. :)
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My argument is not with the fact reloading takes "time", but rather with people who claim not to have the "time" for reloading. Bill T.
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This relates to what a co worker was telling me last week. He was complaining that his pool service raised his monthly maintenance fee $30.00 a month. I asked him why he didn't maintain his pool himself. His reason was that he simply did not "have the time". This guy plays a minimum of 36 holes of golf a week, and watches every Arizona Diamondbacks game broadcast. That is what he enjoys doing. I maintain my own pool and I can all but guarantee I don't spend an half an hour a week doing it. What is that, 3 innings of a single baseball game? Everything has to be looked at in perspective. Bill T.
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I like reloading for several reasons:
1. My actual outlay for ammo is less (not counting my time of course).
2. Where I live I used to spend MORE time driving around looking for ammo than I do making ammo.
3. I have the ammo I want when I want it.
4. I enjoy the process and take pleasure in making rounds that don't screw up. (99.99%)
5. It gives me a "gun" thing to do when I just can do real gun stuff.
To me it's part of enjoying shooting and I think overall I'm ahead cost-wise.
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This relates to what a co worker was telling me last week. He was complaining that his pool service raised his monthly maintenance fee $30.00 a month. I asked him why he didn't maintain his pool himself. His reason was that he simply did not "have the time". This guy plays a minimum of 36 holes of golf a week, and watches every Arizona Diamondbacks game broadcast. That is what he enjoys doing. I maintain my own pool and I can all but guarantee I don't spend an half an hour a week doing it. What is that, 3 innings of a single baseball game? Everything has to be looked at in perspective. Bill T.
Brings up something I was just talking about with my neighbor (and fellow shooter/ reloader) When he asked me about something that I had said that I wanted to get done before winter. I was going to say that I hadn't had time, but thought about it for a second and caught myself. Instead I said that I hadn't MADE time. Which was the truth. Got me thinking about the phrase to always hear about not having time.
We make time for what is important to us. But always say we don't have the time for the things that aren't. It's all about priorities.
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Good thought, JCS.
Everyone has the same amount of time: 24 hours per day.
But not all of it is "discretionary". Job and other non-optional time requirements vary for each of us.
Of what is left, we allocate where we feel we will gain the most.
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Reloading to me is a relaxing gun related activity, the time I spend doing it is a break from what I need to get done. Since I sometimes scrounge brass at the club I shoot at cost goes up rather then down because of all the once fired brass that follows me home. Just looking at all those empty cases waiting for primers, powder and bullets compel me to fill them.
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The above reply refers to .380, 9mm, 40 and 45acp, I save a ton on reloading .44s 45colt 38super and 30mauser.
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Time - Virtually a non-issue. Unless you are giving up a money making opportunity or sloughing in your job to do this, your time is worth what you make of it. So, unless you are passing on a task that will put cash or tangible item in your pocket your time is worth nothing in dollars and cents.
Quality - If you do your homework, and follow the instructions you will get equal to better quality. However, there will be a quality upgrade that factory can never produce, and that is matching your gun, shooting style, and shooting sport to the ammunition you produce. Light bullets, heavy bullets, fast burning powder, slow burning powder, hot primer, cold primer, case length, over all length, bullet style, etc. are all things that can be tweaked in hand loading that you will not see from a factory.
Increased Knowledge - The more steps a shooter takes on themselves, the more they know and understand themselves, their guns and their sport. The process of reloading, from research to the actual act, makes for a better hunter, competitor and sportsman.
Money Savings - I have never met a person that saved money by reloading. If they were able to produce the ammunition at a cost savings all they did was shoot more. So, for every percent they saved in cost they increased their volume ... Not a bad problem in my mind.
Enjoyment Factor - In the region where I live we have three seasons - Good outdoor time, cold, cold and wet, and damn cold and nasty. Reloading extends the shooting seasons by allowing me to do something to do with my sport at any time of year. For every shot I shoot I get to spend time sorting and inspecting cases and hulls, I get to reload the ammunition, and I get to package the ammunition. Then there is the journaling of what I have done for future reference. In these times of increased costs this is a way to get more enjoyment for the dollar out of the same dollars - A hundred dollars of factory ammunition provides a weekend of fun, and it is over. However, a hundred dollars of reloaded ammunition provides a weekend of shooting, and a couple weekends or several days of spare time in the evenings reloading and remembering what I did, and thinking about what I will be doing.
In my world reloading is an important part of my sport and my participation in it.
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I like reloading for several reasons:
1. My actual outlay for ammo is less (not counting my time of course).
2. Where I live I used to spend MORE time driving around looking for ammo than I do making ammo.
3. I have the ammo I want when I want it.
4. I enjoy the process and take pleasure in making rounds that don't screw up. (99.99%)
5. It gives me a "gun" thing to do when I just can do real gun stuff.
To me it's part of enjoying shooting and I think overall I'm ahead cost-wise.
+1
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I can think of four reasons to reload your own ammunition
First: To improve accuracy
Second: To save money
Third: They don't make it any more.
Fourth: The satisfaction of a job well done.
And that's the way it is.
;D ;D ;D
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As have been outlined here there are many reasons to reload. But you must understand depending on what reason your doing it for will dictate whether some of the other reasons apply. If you choose to save money, you may not neccesarily be utilizing the performance. If you buy the cheapest bullets you are getting inconsistancy!! You wont spend much time to throw any ol' load together if your not looking for precision. If you choose precision and performance its going to be more expensive than the bargain box of ammo. It also requires additional steps in the proccess and more equipment. Reloading, no matter how you look at it is a beneficial thing. You just have to accept that most of the time you cant get the best of all worlds. As my Dad always says when you gain in one area you have to loss in another.
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Another reason for reloading is that you might wish to duplicate a factory load.
For instance, if you have priced DPX ammo for your Self Defense pistol, you might be thinking it would be cheaper to let the robber take what he wants than to feed the stuff to your guns for function testing and practice. Hornaday Critical Defense ammo is a bit less expensive.
If you can obtain the bullets from Barnes or Hornaday that are used in these rounds, you can attempt to duplicate the factory load in your handgun.
Since you most likely cannot manage to conduct the testing the factory has done with their loads to get the desired terminal performance, you might want to duplicate the factory load because the terminal performance might be affected by significant velocity changes.
To do this, you will need a chronograph to clock the factory loads in your handgun. Once you know the velocity of the load, you can work to duplicate it in your handgun.
I disassemble a batch of the factory loads to examine and weigh the powder charge. While the powders that are use in factory loads are seldom, if ever, offered in the canister powders we can buy, it will let you know what the shape of the powder is, which might allow you to closer duplicate the burning characteristics of the powder used in the factory load. If a spherical powder is used in the factory load, you might get closer performance by using an appropriate spherical powder in your loads.
In any case, once you know the weight and shape of the powder, you will need to search all the loading data you can find for your caliber and bullet weight that use that shape and charge of powder to achieve a velocity close to what you measured in your handgun and/or the velocity published by the factory for the load.
Once you find some load data that falls in the range you need, you can begin loading to test the combinations in your handgun. If any of the loads you are considering are near Max, back off on the powder charge and work back up to it, checking for sings of over pressure.
When you have come up with loads that will match the velocity of the factory loads in your weapon, you are good to go.
Another offshoot of this is that now that you know the velocity of the load you duplicated in your handgun, you can now duplicate the "feel" of that load with cheaper components for practice.
For instance, you can use ball or maybe plated bullets of the same weight as the factory bullets and loaded to the same velocity in your handgun for cheaper practice ammo which will produce the same muzzle energy and thus recoil characteristics very close to the duplicated factory loads you will be using for self defense.
Remember that visual examination of the powder used in factory loads will not allow you to be able to determine what powder was used in the factory load just by visual comparison. This will only help you find a canister powder that is likely to have burn characteristics similar to the factory powder. You will need to research the available load data to determine which canister powders can be used safely to reproduce the measured velocity of the factory rounds in your handgun.
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I'm always amazed when people factor their time into reloading. Reloading is a hobby and something you do for the pure pleasure you get out of it.
An avid golfer or hunter, unless they are a pro, don't factor time in the pursuit of their activity. They do it because they enjoy it and not because of a time-cost benefit analysis.
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I'm always amazed when people factor their time into reloading. Reloading is a hobby and something you do for the pure pleasure you get out of it.
An avid golfer or hunter, unless they are a pro, don't factor time in the pursuit of their activity. They do it because they enjoy it and not because of a time-cost benefit analysis.
Also, I don't know of anyone currently running a spreadsheet on their time spent having sex with their other half? Bill T.
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Also, I don't know of anyone currently running a spreadsheet on their time spent having sex with their other half? Bill T.
I think you just opened the door to yet ANOTHER "why I hate Billt" thread. ;D
I tend to agree with the sentiment that reloading is a hobby. I don't consider it a time waster at all. Just another thing that I can do on a nasty weather day. I usually reload with friends and family. So it's usually a group activity. Let's face it, anytime you get with those two groups is QUALITY time. Regardless of what you are doing. So for me, I get to hang out with people that are close to me, and together we crank out some quality ammo. Win/Win in my book.
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Also, I don't know of anyone currently running a spreadsheet on their time spent having sex with their other half? Bill T.
No but with both partys working crazy hours, some times you need to have a appointment.
Don't ask me how I know.
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No but with both partys working crazy hours, some times you need to have a appointment.
Don't ask me how I know.
Gives a whole new dimension to being "penciled in" ;D
I think my chair in the corner is still warm.
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Old topic now, but I just did the shopping and math to buy a thousand rounds of .380 ammo. It was almost to the dollar the same price to buy good 90 gr. JHP's as it was to get the die's, bullets, primers, powder and other supplies to load this caliber. Even with my already having all the standard equipment (press, polisher, scales, exc., exc.)
A bit of a bummer because I was looking forward to doing the loading myself, but if I can buy the stuff ready to shoot at the same price. And with terminal performance between the two end products being near identical (we're clearly not talking precision long range shooting here! It's .380! ;D). Reloading this caliber isn't going to be happening in my house.
It still pays off well, and is great fun making my own rifle ammo, .44 mag. ammo and the like because you can't buy the stuff I build for these calibers off a shelf. This is the first time I ever looked at duplicating ammo you can buy in the store, and I'd really have to raise an eyebrow to anyone saying handloading pays off for the small caliber stuff... In any kind of volume.
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Old topic now, but I just did the shopping and math to buy a thousand rounds of .380 ammo. It was almost to the dollar the same price to buy good 90 gr. JHP's as it was to get the die's, bullets, primers, powder and other supplies to load this caliber. Even with my already having all the standard equipment (press, polisher, scales, exc., exc.)
A bit of a bummer because I was looking forward to doing the loading myself, but if I can buy the stuff ready to shoot at the same price. And with terminal performance between the two end products being near identical (we're clearly not talking precision long range shooting here! It's .380! ;D). Reloading this caliber isn't going to be happening in my house.
It still pays off well, and is great fun making my own rifle ammo, .44 mag. ammo and the like because you can't buy the stuff I build for these calibers off a shelf. This is the first time I ever looked at duplicating ammo you can buy in the store, and I'd really have to raise an eyebrow to anyone saying handloading pays off for the small caliber stuff... In any kind of volume.
Over what time frame?
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timeframe isn't really relevent, I calculated 1,000 rounds. Even making it 5,000 rounds cost variance would be negligable. In all actuality, doing only 1,000 rounds would cause reloading to cost more than buying ready to fire JHP ammo. At the 5,000 round mark reloading would have a SMALL cost advantage. Yes, you could skimp on quality and lower reloading costs, but then the same could be said for buying the loaded ammo, and if buying 5,000 rounds. I'd have to say you could cut a pretty good deal with your supplier. So even then reloading the small caliber stuff is a money looser.
Who the heck shoots 5,000 rounds of .380? :-\ Well, not me anyway. ;)
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are you buying new brass or recycling?
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are you buying new brass or recycling?
Yeah..buy 100 rounds and 400 each of bullets, primers and powder and reload the brass 4 times.
If you decide not to reload the brass, you can send it my way ;D ;D ;D
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I've got a bunch of 38 super you can have, once fired, but I would not recomend anything other light loads if I was you... They were used to make major. They might be good for a reload or two. I was going to take them to the scrap yard next time I go.
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Thanks for the offer, TAB, but I have to say no....
If I took it, then I'd have to buy a new gun.....
But it did get me thinking....about a Brass Exchange...
But there would be lots of details to work out...
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38 super brass not being able to take the pressure is the main reason why they went to 40 cal+ to make major.
I've had them for awhile, started sorting thru them a few years back and about 2/3 were toast.
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Mind you this doesn't include ANY brass, polishing supplies, box's, or a half dozen other smaller expenses I'd incure to add another caliber to my exisiting equipment. But this hit near $300 bucks. :(
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww40/BigCheeseStick/midway.jpg)
I bought a BUNCH of Fiocchi 90 gr. JHP's at $16.something for 50 round box's instead. ;)
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other than that's all they had ,Why would anyone use Match grade primers in a .380?
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other than that's all they had ,Why would anyone use Match grade primers in a .380?
;D
They hardly cost any more, and I'm hooked on'em! I did a BUNCH of comparisons when I started reloading (you name the brand) and the Federal Premium out performed everything else many times over for consistency of ignition and how well they ignited (size of flash). They made me a believer! All I use.
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fair enough ;)