The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: Dakotaranger on September 29, 2010, 01:32:37 AM
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I just got the PDN unorthodox shooting positions video. The suggestion of visualizing situations that are realistic was made. There have been mountain lion attacks in the state and the PD has actually shot one in town on one of my normal routes and have seen tracks of a second.
I was wondering if anyone has suggestions on drawing w/o covering myself. It isn't possible to follow the handle bars like was suggested to follow the steering wheel.
Alternatives to drawing and shooting, because by the time a person gets stopped the lion WILL be on top of them. And being in city limits it's last thing I really would want to do. Situational Awareness will only take you so far, because we aren't talking about a 2 legged predator. I do carry a SOG Fusion. OC IS NOT an option due to normal wind patterns.
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It might help if you could offer some vid clips, otherwise we are working blind. :-\ For what its worth, and this is just boiler plate, I think the ""Feed the attacking animal your weak arm and fire point blank into its guts" school of thought seems like a good defaut option. If there's something better out there, I'd love to hear it.
FQ13
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This is what it's like around Bismarck
Still looking for video of attacks. They'll go for a throat first.
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Your screwed.
Defending, and drawing takes 2 hands, The movement means the bike is going down at that speed, no hands left for brakes, once you hit the ground you will either miss because your falling off a bike, (If your luck is like mine you will kill some one 3 states away ) or you will lose the gun when you hit the ground.
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Your screwed.
Defending, and drawing takes 2 hands, The movement means the bike is going down at that speed, no hands left for brakes, once you hit the ground you will either miss because your falling off a bike, (If your luck is like mine you will kill some one 3 states away ) or you will lose the gun when you hit the ground.
I realize that I would be screwed, that's why I'm asking since this isn't the typical question a normal person would ask or come across unless they ride where I ride. The ND Game and Fish have made it pretty clear that there are more mountain lions in the state and since I am looking forward to doing the Maah Daah Hey trail next summer it is a real possibility.
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Maybe invite TWyacht and his zillion dollar .338 Lapua out to visit before your ride? ;) God knows he's never had a chance to shoot it at over a 100 yards, and your state could cure that. I'm also fairly certain that he can get the job done at 500 or so. It's a win win scenario. I just want pictures (and police reports)! ;D ;D ;D
FQ13
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Hopefully MB will read and chime in on this since he faces the same problems.
Richard
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Is there a way to mound a holster at the center of the handle bars so that a draw can be made one handed with either hand?
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Is there a way to mound a holster at the center of the handle bars so that a draw can be made one handed with either hand?
That is Bane's solution. A wilderness safepacker mounted as a barbag.
If you get ambushed you will be separated from the bike and the weapon. But by that point you couldn't get to a retained weapon in time anyway.
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I realize that I would be screwed, that's why I'm asking since this isn't the typical question a normal person would ask or come across unless they ride where I ride. The ND Game and Fish have made it pretty clear that there are more mountain lions in the state and since I am looking forward to doing the Maah Daah Hey trail next summer it is a real possibility.
I did not mean my post to sound sarcastic as it may have.
What I meant was that there really is no way to win in that situation, (without applying FQ's solution of "Sniper over watch ) there are just to many things going on that all require hands and attention .
For specifically Mountain lions, rather than the gun you might get better use from one of those "Spray can type fog horns they sell for boaters, Cougars are like burglars, they rely on stealth and do not care for loud noises.
It may not cause the lion to take off, but at least it alerts others in the area.
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On a very slightly more serious note, this might be a good excuse to buy a Bond Arms derringer (I'd take any excuse to get one as they are beyond sweet). Anyway, they make a holster thats as good as the gun. Its called the driving holster and mounts horizontally on your belt so the gun is paralell to your waist. It should be ideal for biking, unles you are wearing those silly lycra shorts, in which case you deserve to get eaten. ;D Seriously, a Bond is tiny and it would be damn quick to get to, and if you get one in .45, .357, or .10mm etc., its plenty of gun for a cat at 5 feet.
FQ13 who is always happy to be the voice of satan. ;)
http://bondarms.com/store/index.php?l=product_detail&p=665
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I did not mean my post to sound sarcastic as it may have.
What I meant was that there really is no way to win in that situation, (without applying FQ's solution of "Sniper over watch ) there are just to many things going on that all require hands and attention .
For specifically Mountain lions, rather than the gun you might get better use from one of those "Spray can type fog horns they sell for boaters, Cougars are like burglars, they rely on stealth and do not care for loud noises.
It may not cause the lion to take off, but at least it alerts others in the area.
That is a good idea, a LOUD horn is always a good thing on a bike--whether on the trail or in traffic. At least get you stopped and drawn.
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It all depends on your speed and such, but I would try to get the bike between me and the animal, even if it were a bear, not a lot of good openings for paws to go through, I bet your bike is pretty light and could be manipulated with 1 hand while reaching for protection in what ever form you can legally or illegally carry. I know a lot of riders who use their water bottle to squirt dogs that a chasing them to great effect. That frame mounted air pump might be a decent club. FWIW
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I did not mean my post to sound sarcastic as it may have.
What I meant was that there really is no way to win in that situation, (without applying FQ's solution of "Sniper over watch ) there are just to many things going on that all require hands and attention .
For specifically Mountain lions, rather than the gun you might get better use from one of those "Spray can type fog horns they sell for boaters, Cougars are like burglars, they rely on stealth and do not care for loud noises.
It may not cause the lion to take off, but at least it alerts others in the area.
I didn't take it as sarcastic, it could be really realistic a thought After doing a duatholon this last weekend on a mountain bike course it became pretty clear that stopping isn't going to be as easy to do on the Maah Daah Hey next summer, BUT when I'm on the MDH it's not that out of place to have my K-Bar strapped to my pack. In town it would be (again the PD has killed one and there have been signs of a second).
As far as cross drawing, I'm not too sure about that. To easy to sweep yourself with the firearm because you are braking with your hands. I have been carrying in a Sherpia and after going over the handle bars a couple times the pistol isn't going anywhere w/o drawing.
The horn isn't a bad idea for in town, but the one problem is needing to have both hands on the handle bars. I'm finding with incompetent drivers, my natural yelling ability takes over. (Kept me safe when a guy who was 'stopped' started rolling forward). With a horn I would be loosing at least a second and I'd loose my ability to brake.
The reason this is important is because I have ridden anywhere between 1200-1700 miles this summer. I'm more apt to have this happen to me than to have a carjacking attempted on me, not that I haven't visualized what I would do.
This is what I'll be riding through on the Maah Daah Hey
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Actually the small airhorns with the handle bar mount are a great idea. I used one when I worked as a courier in DC. It saved my ass on at least one, and maybe two occasions. It made feel infinately better on several more. ;D Seriously, with a handle bar mount, you don't have to move your hand, just extend the thumb. It takes half a second and you get a whole lot of loudness. It might be more effective than a bullet or a burst of bear spray. I actually posted to reccomend the latter. The stuff is suposed to be effective on 600 pound grizzlies. It should more than suffice for a sub 100 pound cat. You also don't have to worry about accuracy as much or collateral damage. There should be no legal issues, and its cheaper (by far) than a pistol. No firm opinions, but I'd look into it if I were you.
FQ13
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There's two problems with spray in this situation. 1. The same as drawing from a bike 2. winds in ND can be around 20 MPH for weeks blowback becomes a real problem.
Getting the bike in between is the only thing I've heard so far (and one of the attacks was fended off this way for miles).
I might have to pose a question on a biking site about a quicker way to brake because that seams to be one of the major hang ups I'm coming up with with any tactic I can think of
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There's two problems with spray in this situation. 1. The same as drawing from a bike 2. winds in ND can be around 20 MPH for weeks blowback becomes a real problem.
Getting the bike in between is the only thing I've heard so far (and one of the attacks was fended off this way for miles).
I might have to pose a question on a biking site about a quicker way to brake because that seams to be one of the major hang ups I'm coming up with with any tactic I can think of
When I lived in austin there was a wicked nasty six mile loop of single track called City Park (I think the official name was Emma Long Park or something, but its been awhile). It was originally a moto-cross park, but has been given over to mountain bikes. This thing is scary. 45 degree and steeper slopes, stairstep lime stone ridges that have you dropping 2-3 feet or better all the way down a 1/2 mile descent while you're going like a bat out of hell. Its the best E ticket ride out there. Still, everyone who has ridden it has faced an endo where you plant the front wheel too sharply bouncing from one step to another and the bike wants to do a 180. The solution? Screw the brakes, part company with the bike (why I used toe clips rather than the shoe lock system). It was better to fall or stagger sideways than go ass over tit (kind of like laying a motorcycle down). The relevance of this bit of hippie wisdom? In event of cougar? Fall backwards off the bike and you'll have a sore butt, but still have time to draw whatever weapom you choose (this being plan A). Its imperfect, but it beats the hell out of being all tangled up with the bike and trying to do six things at once. Just my $.02.
FQ13
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There's two problems with spray in this situation. 1. The same as drawing from a bike 2. winds in ND can be around 20 MPH for weeks blowback becomes a real problem.
Getting the bike in between is the only thing I've heard so far (and one of the attacks was fended off this way for miles).
I might have to pose a question on a biking site about a quicker way to brake because that seams to be one of the major hang ups I'm coming up with with any tactic I can think of
That seems like a really good idea, Most of us here, our biking days are behind us ;D
On the "losing the gun comment I made, I was thinking of having it jar lose from your hand, if you fell over and hit the ground.
This is really a tough question, as I posted earlier, there is just to much going on.
You have 3 separate situations that all need to be dealt with now
1 - Bike at speed on a wilderness trail,
2- Defending against the animal attack
3 - Getting your pistol drawn and into action, with out endangering yourself or others . (more than they are )
Breaking it down like that, it looks like getting the bike between you and the critter takes care of the first 2 and the critter dealing with the bike buys you the seconds you need to draw.
It looks to me like the big problem of getting the bike stopped and you off and stable as quickly as possible.
That is the part that other Bicyclists are more qualified to help you with.
As to the other suggestions of sprays, I would not trust a non lethal response to a wild animal, they have a level of determination that modern civilized humans just can't comprehend.
Look how far a deer will run after being shot dead.
But that is just my opinion, some people are more trusting in "usually", most, and "generally".
Condoms are supposedly 98% effective, I have 2 kids, I don't trust any thing that is less than 100%
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When I lived in austin there was a wicked nasty six mile loop of single track called City Park (I think the official name was Emma Long Park or something, but its been awhile). It was originally a moto-cross park, but has been given over to mountain bikes. This thing is scary. 45 degree and steeper slopes, stairstep lime stone ridges that have you dropping 2-3 feet or better all the way down a 1/2 mile descent while you're going like a bat out of hell. Its the best E ticket ride out there. Still, everyone who has ridden it has faced an endo where you plant the front wheel too sharply bouncing from one step to another and the bike wants to do a 180. The solution? Screw the brakes, part company with the bike (why I used toe clips rather than the shoe lock system). It was better to fall or stagger sideways than go ass over tit (kind of like laying a motorcycle down). The relevance of this bit of hippie wisdom? In event of cougar? Fall backwards off the bike and you'll have a sore butt, but still have time to draw whatever weapom you choose (this being plan A). Its imperfect, but it beats the hell out of being all tangled up with the bike and trying to do six things at once. Just my $.02.
FQ13
That actually makes alot of sense
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Like fightingquaker13's idea with the driving holster.
Have to tell you though that I have a good amount of experience with puma concolor (mountain lion) through research and hunting in Arizona, California, and Montana. Unless you're wearing a backpack covering your neck, if one decides you are food there is not a thing you can do. You'll just feel something hit you from behind and bite your neck in a split second.
For ones whom have not decided you are food:
1) Bear spray is very effective at discouraging bad behavior, has decent standoff range, large pattern, and is the preferred method in this type of encounter. Unless you burn a lot of powder weekly and can remain cool, the spray is the way to go. A wounded
animal can make things turn seriously worse in a hurry.
2) Handgun, (I carry a light ported a 38 +P that will anchor a bear when hit between the shoulder blades, including grizzlies). A single shot in front of them works 99% of the time. Ones with rabies, have been raised closely to humans, already have had a taste of you, and some transients (ones looking for a home ranges) normally fit in this one percent group that will not respond to a warning shot. That is when you'll wish you had the spray ;)
FYI: You may all know this, but if you think the animal has rabies try not expose spinal fluids to the air or damage the skull. Certain rabies strains can infect victims purely through airborne transmission, exposing spinal fluids obviously increases this risk. Undamaged skulls can be tested and save you a lot of grief. Fortunately, only a very small percentage of lions get infected.
Hope that helps some.
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Like fightingquaker13's idea with the driving holster.
Have to tell you though that I have a good amount of experience with puma concolor (mountain lion) through research and hunting in Arizona, California, and Montana. Unless you're wearing a backpack covering your neck, if one decides you are food there is not a thing you can do. You'll just feel something hit you from behind and bite your neck in a split second.
For ones whom have not decided you are food:
1) Bear spray is very effective at discouraging bad behavior, has decent standoff range, large pattern, and is the preferred method in this type of encounter. Unless you burn a lot of powder weekly and can remain cool, the spray is the way to go. A wounded
animal can make things turn seriously worse in a hurry.
2) Handgun, (I carry a light ported a 38 +P that will anchor a bear when hit between the shoulder blades, including grizzlies). A single shot in front of them works 99% of the time. Ones with rabies, have been raised closely to humans, already have had a taste of you, and some transients (ones looking for a home ranges) normally fit in this one percent group that will not respond to a warning shot. That is when you'll wish you had the spray ;)
FYI: You may all know this, but if you think the animal has rabies try not expose spinal fluids to the air or damage the skull. Certain rabies strains can infect victims purely through airborne transmission, exposing spinal fluids obviously increases this risk. Undamaged skulls can be tested and save you a lot of grief. Fortunately, only a very small percentage of lions get infected.
Hope that helps some.
Well, now that you have succeeded in scaring the crap out of us, welcome aboard. You'll fit right in. ;D
FQ13
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Well, now that you have succeeded in scaring the crap out of us, welcome aboard. You'll fit right in. ;D
FQ13
Crap, FQ stole my line .
While I was typing ! The SOB ;D
2 other comments on your post, I think you are wrong about bear spray "has decent standoff range".
If something has decided that it is going to eat me I would not say that an ICBM "has decent standoff range"
The second thing , more serious, is that no, I did NOT know about the spinal fluids, and have had occasion to shoot a couple POTENTIALLY rabid dogs over the years.
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Badshotomen kinda stole my thunder. If the cat is after you, it will be from behind. The only way you will see it is if you surprise it, not the other way around. And mountain lions should scare the crap out of you. They are the only wildlife that will routinely intentionally hunt a human.
Story from a hunting rag a few years back - a father/son were out hunting deer, saw something down by a river. Dad put the scope on it, and the cat looked back at him. Dad and son skeedaddled back to the pickup and came back next day with help. The cat had followed them back to the pickup. The now much larger group swept through the area for some time, and ended up back at the pickups without seeing the cat. Then they saw the tracks following their trail as they swept - the cat had tracked them the whole way and was likely watching them at the moment they realized it.
Object Lesson - Cats attack from behind.
Actually the small airhorns with the handle bar mount are a great idea.
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It should more than suffice for a sub 100 pound cat.
Just what we want to hear on the trails, especially the Maah-dah-Hey, airhorns. Doubt seriously they would work on a cat, other than to resound like a dinner "bell".
And just what kind of pussy cat do you have in FL? Sub-100 pounds? If it is a young'un or sick and dying, maybe it's sub-100 pounds. Most of the healthy ones up here are well over 100 pounds, with the males heading toward 200.
In event of cougar? Fall backwards off the bike and you'll have a sore butt, but still have time to draw whatever weapom you choose (this being plan A).
One more time - cats will attack from behind, they are stalkers.
Another story from a hunting rag - a couple of turkey hunters were sitting on the ground with their backs against some trees calling the birds. One heard a faint rustle from behind, glanced back, and barely had time to swing the shotgun muzzle and pull the trigger before the cat dropped dead in his lap. Object Lesson - When you sound like prey, you are prey. Oh, yeah, and cats attack from behind.
A couple of ideas, DR. 1 - Backpack with hydration is a great idea, especially if you can find something to ride high over the back of the neck. And made of Kevlar maybe? ;D
2 - keep weapons (yes, plural) on your body, not on the bike. Maybe start with a shoulder holster, plus belt carry, cross-draw or better yet weak hand in case your strong is is, you know, busy being fed to the cat?. As for the Bond derringer, better than nothing, especially if you're up against the wussy cats in FQ's neighborhood. Up here? .45 ACP or 9mm HP only, and lots of them. And maybe a Bowie knife - you know, just in case?
3 - Check with the rangers before you ride to see if any cats have been seen recently. Cats cover a lot of ground so this isn't foolproof, so one could just show up, but will at least let you know if one was in the area for sure. Watch for sign as you ride, tracks, scat on the trail, etc. Absence of other wildlife too, although hikers/bikers will spook much of the wildlife.
4 - Don't ride alone and keep those behind you in your mirrors, don't let anyone get trailed too far behind - they are the prey of choice. Safety in numbers.
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And just what kind of pussy cat do you have in FL?
They are almost mythical they are so rarely seen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_panther
The Florida panther is a highly threatened representative of cougar (Puma concolor) that lives in forests and swamps of southern Florida in the United States. Its current taxonomic status (Puma concolor coryi or Puma concolor couguar) is unresolved, but recent genetic research alone does not alter the legal conservation status. This species is also known as the cougar, mountain lion, puma, and catamount but in the Southeast, and particularly Florida, it is exclusively known as the panther.
Males weigh about 34.2 kilograms (170 lbs) and live within a range that includes the Big Cypress National Preserve, Everglades National Park, and the Florida Panther National Wildlife Refuge.[3] This population, the only unequivocal cougar representative in the eastern United States, currently occupies only 5% of its historic range. The number of living Florida panthers is estimated to be between 80 and 100.[4]
Much more at link
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(http://youarekidding.net/img/BearSign.jpg)
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They are almost mythical they are so rarely seen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_panther
The Florida panther is a highly threatened representative of cougar (Puma concolor) that lives in forests and swamps of southern Florida in the United States. Its current taxonomic status (Puma concolor coryi or Puma concolor couguar) is unresolved, but recent genetic research alone does not alter the legal conservation status. This species is also known as the cougar, mountain lion, puma, and catamount but in the Southeast, and particularly Florida, it is exclusively known as the panther.
Males weigh about 34.2 kilograms (170 lbs) and live within a range that includes the Big Cypress National Preserve, Everglades National Park, and the Florida Panther National Wildlife Refuge.[3] This population, the only unequivocal cougar representative in the eastern United States, currently occupies only 5% of its historic range. The number of living Florida panthers is estimated to be between 80 and 100.[4]
Much more at link
I believe about 6 or so of those 'mythical" creatures have been killed by cars this year!
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I believe about 6 or so of those 'mythical" creatures have been killed by cars this year!
See, Those six obviously weren't seen.
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DNR has said repeatedly that there are none in our area (guess they have maps and can't come across the GA/FL border ::) ). My best friend growing up is a DNR Game Warden and he says he has seen several, but his superiors deny their existence in Georgia.
I've seen them with my own eyes over the years. There's one that roams the area along the creek 500 yards from our property. We have pics of tracks on a camera phone but they are not clear, so we are in the process of setting up more cameras. It has become a personal goal to get a picture of this cat.
Our son caught a pic of one with a game trail camera along the river that runs through his girlfriends dad's land (40 miles away)...only to have his girlfriends father erase all the pics while trying to retrieve them (haven't figured out how he did it).
There may not be a lot of the cats out there, but there are more than DNR admits to.
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We "don't have them" in NH too.
Thing is, They are endangered, in the East any way. If they are here, then the Feds mandate all kinds of managment crap, spend money, get every one PO'd, and probably kill off the animals, If there are "none here", every one is happier, including the animals.
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We "don't have them" in NH too.
Thing is, They are endangered, in the East any way. If they are here, then the Feds mandate all kinds of managment crap, spend money, get every one PO'd, and probably kill off the animals, If there are "none here", every one is happier, including the animals.
The feds probably haul them out here because we are 'unpopulated'
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We "don't have them" in NH too.
Thing is, They are endangered, in the East any way. If they are here, then the Feds mandate all kinds of managment crap, spend money, get every one PO'd, and probably kill off the animals, If there are "none here", every one is happier, including the animals.
A game warden told my son last week that they have a $10,000 reward for a picture of a 'live' black one.
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A game warden told my son last week that they have a $10,000 reward for a picture of a 'live' black one.
That's the safest $10,000 on the planet because a black morph of Puma concolor does not exist. I won't say there couldn't be a few normal ones roaming around south Georgia, but definitely not any black ones. For the record, large black cats exist, outside the US, just not black Puma concolor.
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Always heard it as old wives tales. Never heard of an actual black one either, just repeating what the DNR ranger said (I guess they can be just as prone to spreading rumors as anyone ;D ).
I've heard that, like deer, in certain areas the animals have much darker brown fur than normal and may contribute to the legend.
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Always heard it as old wives tales. Never heard of an actual black one either, just repeating what the DNR ranger said (I guess they can be just as prone to spreading rumors as anyone ;D ).
I've heard that, like deer, in certain areas the animals have much darker brown fur than normal and may contribute to the legend.
He was probably giving your son Rainbows to chase and dream about or was chuckling over his new version of a Snipe Hunt
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Iteresting reading:
Cougars
There are no authenticated cases of truly melanistic cougars (pumas). Melanistic cougars have never been photographed or shot in the wild and none have ever been bred. There is wide consensus among breeders and biologists that the animal does not exist.[citation needed]
Black cougars have been reported in Kentucky and in the Carolinas. There have also been reports of glossy black cougars from Kansas, Texas and eastern Nebraska. These have come to be known as the "North American black panther". Sightings are currently attributed to errors in species identification by non-experts, and by the memetic exaggeration of size.
Black panthers in the American Southeast feature prominently in Choctaw folklore where, along with the owl, they are often thought to symbolize Death.
Reports of "black panthers" in the United States
In Florida, a few melanistic bobcats have been captured; these have also apparently been mistaken for panthers. Ulmer (1941) presents photographs and descriptions of two animals captured in Martin County in 1939 and 1940. In the photographs, they appear black, and one of the hunters called them black. Many "black panther" sightings have also come from Georgia and South Carolina as recent as 2006. Sightings have also been recorded in parts of Texas and Southern Oklahoma, and scattered throughout the eastern U.S.
The Academy specimen, upon close examination, is far from black. The most heavily pigmented portions are the crown and dorsal area. In most lights these areas appear black, but at certain angles the dorsal strip has a decidedly mahogany tint. The mahogany coloring becomes lighter and richer on the sides. The underparts are lightest, being almost ferruginous in color. The chin, throat and cheeks are dark chocolate-brown, but the facial stripes can be seen clearly. The limbs are dark mahogany. In certain lights the typical spot-pattern of the Florida bobcat can be distinctly seen on the side, underparts and limbs. The Bronx Park animal appears darker and the spots are not visible, although the poor light in the quarantine cage may have been the reason.[8]
Adult male bobcats are 28–47 inches (71–120 cm) long, with a short, bobbed tail, and are 18–24 inches (46–61 cm) tall at the shoulder. Females are slightly smaller. Florida panthers are 23–32 inches (58–81 cm) at the shoulder and 5–7 feet (1.5–2.1 m) long, including the tail. Bobcats weigh 16–30 pounds (7.3–14 kg) while Florida panthers are 50–150 pounds (23–68 kg).
Another possible explanation for black panther sightings is the jaguarundi, a cat very similar genetically to the cougar, which grows to around 30 inches (76 cm) long with an additional 20 inches (51 cm) of tail. Their coat occurs in a reddish-brown phase and a dark grey phase. While their acknowledged natural range ends in southern Texas, a small breeding population was introduced to Florida in the 1940s, and there are rumors of people breeding them as pets there as well. In Central America, they are known as relatively docile pets, as far as non-domesticated animals go. The male jaguarundi's home range can be up to 100 square kilometres (40 sq mi) while the female's home range can be up to 20 square kilometres (8 sq mi). It has been suggested that very small populations of jaguarundi, which rarely venture out of deep forests, are responsible for many or most of the supposed black cougar sightings. While they are significantly smaller than a cougar, differently colored, and much lower to the ground (many note a resemblance to the weasel), memory bias could explain many of the sightings in the southeastern U.S.
Another possibility would be the black jaguar, which ranged into North America in historical memory. Melanistic jaguars are uncommon in nature and, significantly, jaguars in general were persecuted to near-extinction in the 1960s. Though they do not look exactly like cougars, they have the requisite size. The jaguar has had several (photographically) confirmed, and many unconfirmed, sightings in Arizona, New Mexico, Oklahoma, and southwest Texas, but not beyond that region.
Calls to Florida wildlife agencies also include house cats (video or photographs make size determination difficult) and river otters (especially at a distance) which are dark brown and can grow to approximately 5 feet in length and move with a gait that people associate with cats.
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I've seen some large dark bobcats that, if I didn't know better, could have easily been called a panther. Also, their bobbed tails are fairly long.
Black panthers are like Santa Claus; you have to believe in them to see them.
Back to the original topic, I kind of like the high riding backpack and sharp knife approach. I think that once you're in hand to paw combat (assuming you make it that far) that a knife would be more affective. You have to be able to get the gun into a position where it is safely pointed at the cat. A knife can be swung wildly and land damaging blows.
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Black cats and other chimermas aside, I think the soluyion here is simple. Forget what I and every other arm chair quarterback has posted (badshotomen excepted as he seems to have experience here). Here is the real deal. You and your biking buddies need three things:
1) A type A, hyper competative guy who has to be first. Let him lead the the way.
2) A slightly out of shape "Hey guys, wait up" type to bring up the rear, at some distance.
3) a bit of "cat reppellant" (aka doe urine) liberally sprayed on his and alpha guy's packs.
The rest of you ride in formation in the middle and it should be no worries! ;D
FQ13 who is a very, very bad person. ;D
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Black cats and other chimermas aside, I think the soluyion here is simple. Forget what I and every other arm chair quarterback has posted (badshotomen excepted as he seems to have experience here). Here is the real deal. You and your biking buddies need three things:
1) A type A, hyper competative guy who has to be first. Let him lead the the way.
2) A slightly out of shape "Hey guys, wait up" type to bring up the rear, at some distance.
3) a bit of "cat reppellant" (aka doe urine) liberally sprayed on his and alpha guy's packs.
The rest of you ride in formation in the middle and it should be no worries! ;D
FQ13 who is a very, very bad person. ;D
Yes you are a very bad person because I'm the guy that was riding point when we did the Mickelson Trail this summer. *snicker
Seriously, though, I'm still hoping to find a legit stradegy for this. It would be easier if we were backpacking, but stopping is THE major problem I keep stumbling over
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Just a thought, maybe stopping isn't the answer, maybe a burst of speed to buy a little more distance ?
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Just a thought, maybe stopping isn't the answer, maybe a burst of speed to buy a little more distance ?
I was wondering that also. Don't know how hard it would be for a cat to get ahead of a fast moving rider to lay an ambush.
If they prefer to attack from behind that would mean pursuing a fast moving target or getting ahead and executing a precise pounce.
Don't know of what feats these cats are capable.
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Black cats and other chimermas aside, I think the soluyion here is simple. Forget what I and every other arm chair quarterback has posted (badshotomen excepted as he seems to have experience here). Here is the real deal. You and your biking buddies need three things:
1) A type A, hyper competative guy who has to be first. Let him lead the the way.
2) A slightly out of shape "Hey guys, wait up" type to bring up the rear, at some distance.
3) a bit of "cat reppellant" (aka doe urine) liberally sprayed on his and alpha guy's packs.
The rest of you ride in formation in the middle and it should be no worries! ;D
FQ13 who is a very, very bad person. ;D
WTF are you talking about, FQ?
Chimeras?
The best 'soluyion' would be to rent a dictionary. ;D
I've seen some large dark bobcats that, if I didn't know better, could have easily been called a panther. Also, their bobbed tails are fairly long.
Black panthers are like Santa Claus; you have to believe in them to see them.
Back to the original topic, I kind of like the high riding backpack and sharp knife approach. I think that once you're in hand to paw combat (assuming you make it that far) that a knife would be more affective. You have to be able to get the gun into a position where it is safely pointed at the cat. A knife can be swung wildly and land damaging blows.
Agreed on all points.....both cats and blades. ;)
If I were fighting for my life in CQB with a good sized animal, having been unable to dispatch it before it got on me, IMHO the knife is the best bet. As long as the animal has the greater element of surprise, the firearm on the bike issue is going to be a tough solution.
FWIW
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I was wondering that also. Don't know how hard it would be for a cat to get ahead of a fast moving rider to lay an ambush.
If they prefer to attack from behind that would mean pursuing a fast moving target or getting ahead and executing a precise pounce.
Don't know of what feats these cats are capable.
Yeah, well, it's not like they run down deer or antelope or anything! ::)
Big cats like the mountain lions (a misnomer as they dwell very nicely on the plains thank you) can cover hundreds of miles in a few days. They are fast predators but "prefer" the ambush attack after a stalk ("prefer" because they are hard-wired for that to save energy, but if they are desperate for food or otherwise can't ambush, they will chase). So they will cover a lot of ground to set up that ambush, and do so very quickly.
If the lead rider in a group is far enough ahead, he might get jumped. If there are others close behind, likely as not the lead rider will be left alone and the trailing rider jumped. From what I know of these cats, they would need to be more than just a little hungry to jump a moving cyclist. Stopped, however, changes your odds of getting jumped - in the lion's favor.
And, all of the above and everything in this thread depends solely on the cat. That is the sobering reality.
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On the trail I carry at least three blades, The K-Bar on my pack, a four inch fixed blade on weakside and A SOG Fixation folder on my strong side with my .45. I realize there is a good possibility that I'll get to one of my blades quicker than the .45 IF I get ambushed
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And, all of the above and everything in this thread depends solely on the cat. That is the sobering reality.
Yep, you are in his world.
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Thanks for the welcome aboard!
Sorry about the scare, though there are times after calling at sun down that I don't feel too comfortable walking back to camp either...
Here in Montana I have not seen any all black ones but have seen a two females with black feet (dark rusty fur color) and one tawny male with half his tail black. Apparently this occurs more the further north you go. Never have seen this before in either CA or AZ.
As far as the Florida cats, they transplanted some from Texas a few years back and they're interbreeding. I lived in Bonita Springs in the 90's and the Everglades is a good fit for them, though their numbers probably won't exceed 300. FYI: Mountain Lion is one of the few species that is self regulating. Meaning if there are too many for the food supply, they'll kill each other. Some of Arizona's Fish and Game research papers have evidence of this, including photos.(New Mexico too).
With all that said (with the exception of some areas in CA and Tucson) they'll generally avoid you. Yes, some may follow you around, generally out of curiosity...or their trying to decide if you'll taste good and how much of a fight you'll put up :) lol