The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: Badgersmilk on October 05, 2010, 11:39:34 AM
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With individual pieces and full parts kits being a dime a dozen, and the hundreds of possible variations that could be built...
Anybody done this? Or know of a reason it's a bad idea, or a poor project to start???
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/MAG304-36.html (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/MAG304-36.html) :o
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b8/DCB_Shooting_G3_pictures.jpg/800px-DCB_Shooting_G3_pictures.jpg)
(http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0PDoTBxU6tM5wEAtMKjzbkF/SIG=12k1qvurk/EXP=1286382833/**http%3a//www.investmentgradefirearms.com/images/5351/53a3front.jpg)
(http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0PDoTDYU6tMgBMArFejzbkF/SIG=13gltn9sg/EXP=1286382936/**http%3a//i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk170/fredieusa/Second/HKG3/01%2520Kit/HK91schematics.jpg)
(http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0PDoX.PVKtM5mQA7NCjzbkF/SIG=12hj97vur/EXP=1286383119/**http%3a//img259.imageshack.us/img259/6038/g3sg1realstealfb2.jpg)
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What I'm finding for anyone interested.
The hard way.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=688219 (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=688219)
http://www.robertrtg.com/receiverflat.html (http://www.robertrtg.com/receiverflat.html) / http://www.robertrtg.com/g3.html (http://www.robertrtg.com/g3.html)
Much easier.
http://www.weaponeer.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5794&PN=1 (http://www.weaponeer.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5794&PN=1)
And finally, when you start doing the math... JUST LET THIS GUY BUILD IT!
http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/smith/rifle/hk/pagesmithhk.shtml (http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/smith/rifle/hk/pagesmithhk.shtml)
Buying a pre-bent receiver alone is $200, an unbent one and proper tooling will be double that. :(
Could all the end result really be worth it? Now I'm really wondering... :(
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If you don't have a barrel with a fluted chamber you have a very expensive single shot. HK will not sell you one and the only 2 makers in the world were charging around $600.
Guy I worked with at T/C tried that, but he had a custom barrel made at the shop.
He was about $1500 into it when his wife cut off his allowance. (He paid around $200 for a PSG 1 pistol grip)
If you are going to build a rifle build an AR 10. The design is more builder freindly.
"Proper tooling" for bending a receiver is a Press break and will cost $1500. You can get the job done with 2 2X4's 2 C clamps and a soft face hammer, can even use a chunk of fire wood if you don't have a hammer ;D
There is also the issue of welding the trunnion, this has to be right, the righter it is the better, what good is a scoped rifle if the barrel has a half degree of kink in it's base ?
If you have to find out for yourself, try an AK first, it's much cheaper.
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If you don't have a barrel with a fluted chamber you have a very expensive single shot. HK will not sell you one and the only 2 makers in the world were charging around $600.
Guy I worked with at T/C tried that, but he had a custom barrel made at the shop.
He was about $1500 into it when his wife cut off his allowance. (He paid around $200 for a PSG 1 pistol grip)
And that's about four bills more than a brand new M1-A1. Sorry, but no. $600 used? I'll take it and upgrade, maybe.... $1500 to start? I can buy a better out of the box rifle, a DPMS AR-10 or an M1-A1. Hell, you might find a used FAL or Galil for less. Either way, unless you have a hard on for a G3, I'd pass.
FQ13
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FQ, the last time I priced one in a store a new H&K 91 (Civvy G-3 ) was in 2005 it was $3000 then .
The H&K 95 (MP 5 clone ) was around $4500 .
I figure you will try this any way, I don't blame you but I would do pretty much any other rifle because of that damn chamber,
It doesn't work without it, you couldn't find the barrels anywhere, and they are darn hard to make.
I would strongly restate my advice on trying an AK or 2 to get a feel for what you need. The receivers are shaped different but built the same way, Sheet metal and pins.
Good luck on it, REMEMBER Brownell's is your friend ;D
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FQ, the last time I priced one in a store a new H&K 91 (Civvy G-3 ) was in 2005 it was $3000 then .
The H&K 95 (MP 5 clone ) was around $4500 .
I still stand by my post. If you are looking for a functional battle rifle, I'll take the M1-A1 or the AR 10 on an even money trade any day of the week. The collecto'rs value? That's all in your head and only you know what its worth.
FQ13 who will not say you nay on any gun you choose to buy or build (Lord knows I'd be the world's boiggest hypocrite if I did), but I'm a practical guy. Buy the best gun for the least money, beyond that? Its all you.
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For the cost and trouble of bending and welding required for an HK pattern, I'd just buy a PTR91 like I did...unless you want a config they don't offer.
(http://i35.tinypic.com/19xv7b.jpg)
I also would have to agree that I prefer other rifles in the MBR class. M1A (hey FQ...M1A1 is a tank or a Thompson) or a FAL.
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Actually found the flutted barrels for between $159 & $219. Depending on what length / finish / muzzle you want.
This is the one I'd go for. http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/HK-91-G3-18-U-S-Made-Barrel-119p1136.htm (http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/HK-91-G3-18-U-S-Made-Barrel-119p1136.htm)
The other parts add up to around $350 for the configuration I like, so total cost is fine considering it's .308 cal. Got the welder, getting a hyd. press isn't an issue (harbor freight ;)), and I'd actually make a form for bending the reciever out of wood (done it before in other applications). Sooooo....
What's stopping me at this point is that even based on H&K built rifles reliability and feed issues I keep reading about. Some say accuracy is hitting the broad side of a barn, some say you can shoot the wings off a fly at 400 yards (call me a pecamist here :-\)
Already got the AK thing down. AR10 as well... Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. :-\
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Actually found the flutted barrels for between $159 & $219. Depending on what length / finish / muzzle you want.
This is the one I'd go for. http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/HK-91-G3-18-U-S-Made-Barrel-119p1136.htm (http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/HK-91-G3-18-U-S-Made-Barrel-119p1136.htm)
The other parts add up to around $350 for the configuration I like, so total cost is fine considering it's .308 cal. Got the welder, getting a hyd. press isn't an issue (harbor freight ;)), and I'd actually make a form for bending the reciever out of wood (done it before in other applications). Sooooo....
What's stopping me at this point is that even based on H&K built rifles reliability and feed issues I keep reading about. Some say accuracy is hitting the broad side of a barn, some say you can shoot the wings off a fly at 400 yards (call me a pecamist here :-\)
Already got the AK thing down. AR10 as well... Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. :-\
Tom mentioned barrels with fluted chambers, not fluted barrels. just want to be sure you are talking chambers and not the barrel itself that is fluted.
Take care.
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Solus, it says the barrel is for a "G-3", they all have the fluted chamber so he should be OK.
BM, I'll say again, because of the barrel/chamber issue I would have picked a differant rifle, but it sounds like you have THAT covered.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Happy building, if you run out of cuss words PM me, I've got a bunch of them ;D
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I THINK I'm gonna go ahead and start picking up parts... Swingin by harbor freight to check out that cheap press today.
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You will find a dozen other uses for it.
If you have space to work stuff like that is never wasted money.
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Gotta love the South! ;D
Standing there checking out a 12 ton hydraulic press:
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww40/BigCheeseStick/Photo0392.jpg?t=1286492640)
Thinking to myself. "Would certainly get the job done! And seems versitile enough to come in handy for any other sort of project that may ever come up." When the manager walks up and asks. "What have you got in mind for it?" After we talk a little bit he tells me. "Well, why don't you just bring it in here when your ready and do it right here in the store?"
I LOVE THE SOUTH! :)
(http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0PDoTBsVK5MQwgAVXOjzbkF/SIG=127itdf6o/EXP=1286579692/**http%3a//www.dukesonline.com/images/moviejump3344.jpg)
But to do the G3, or an FAL??? ???
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He can make a PR thing out of it and write it off. Cool of him ;D
Boy, can you pick them, fluted chambers or that "inch / metric thing ;D
As far as the actual work, again there is really no difference, other than which one you would rather have.
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Getting the barrel and chamber extension mounted right are a huge issue with the H&K/CETME and it is the number 1 issue with CIA guns. The unit MUST be pressed and aligned properly or you will have issues.
The gunplumber is a great choice for getting a G-3 or CETME built right and I believe that you would be far better off in the long run to have Mark do the heavy lifting on this.
As far as the H&K/CETME versus the FN or AR or M1A, It depends.
The M1A is a very good weapon, but maintenance requirements are higher and the weapon is more fragile (this is relative of course, a wooden handled hammer is less robust than a estwing but neither is likely to break under even heavy use).
The AR-10's are fine target rifles, but IMO, they have no place in a firearms battery designed to keep you alive. The AR has always had issues with dirty ammo, and we want to use it for 7.62 NATO? Say again? AR-10's have all of the disadvantages of the AR-15 but none of the advantages of light-weight, low-recoil and high-capacity.
The FN is a fine weapon, but again, it is a higher maintenance weapon and not quite as reliable. The Paratrooper version is actually more reliable due to the elimination of the rat-tail recoil spring system. The FN would be my second choice as a SHTF weapon.
The H&K/CETME is one of the most reliable and robust rifles around. Yes it does suffer from bad ergonomics, but this is more about the one-size-fits-an-AR training used in to many schools today. If you learn to run an H&K properly you can run it just about as fast as an FN which has far superior ergonomically. The delayed blow-back operating system is the most forgiving of beat-up dirty ammo of any weapon you will find, I have run a CETME with ammo I wouldn't think of putting in an FN. The rifle tends to be very accurate IF it is put together right, the bad ones tend to be CIA butcher jobs, but you will need a good trigger job to get the most accuracy out of the weapon and again Mark the gunplumber will give you a decent trigger. I don't know where the "inch/Metric" thing is coming from, that is an FN issue, not an H&K/CETME. Likewise ANY barrel for this weapon has a fluted chamber, some don't have good flutes and will not work as well as standard barrels, but they are all fluted. You do need to be aware that H&K barrels use polygonal rifling and are bad to use with un-jacketed ammo, not as big a problem with a rifle as a pistol but good to know. I would get a paddle mag-release and a trigger job from Mark or Bill Springfield http://www.triggerwork.net/hk9xrifles.html (http://www.triggerwork.net/hk9xrifles.html) and run with it.
hope this helps.
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Getting the barrel and chamber extension mounted right are a huge issue with the H&K/CETME and it is the number 1 issue with CIA guns. The unit MUST be pressed and aligned properly or you will have issues.
The gunplumber is a great choice for getting a G-3 or CETME built right and I believe that you would be far better off in the long run to have Mark do the heavy lifting on this.
As far as the H&K/CETME versus the FN or AR or M1A, It depends.
The M1A is a very good weapon, but maintenance requirements are higher and the weapon is more fragile (this is relative of course, a wooden handled hammer is less robust than a estwing but neither is likely to break under even heavy use).
The AR-10's are fine target rifles, but IMO, they have no place in a firearms battery designed to keep you alive. The AR has always had issues with dirty ammo, and we want to use it for 7.62 NATO? Say again? AR-10's have all of the disadvantages of the AR-15 but none of the advantages of light-weight, low-recoil and high-capacity.
The FN is a fine weapon, but again, it is a higher maintenance weapon and not quite as reliable. The Paratrooper version is actually more reliable due to the elimination of the rat-tail recoil spring system. The FN would be my second choice as a SHTF weapon.
The H&K/CETME is one of the most reliable and robust rifles around. Yes it does suffer from bad ergonomics, but this is more about the one-size-fits-an-AR training used in to many schools today. If you learn to run an H&K properly you can run it just about as fast as an FN which has far superior ergonomically. The delayed blow-back operating system is the most forgiving of beat-up dirty ammo of any weapon you will find, I have run a CETME with ammo I wouldn't think of putting in an FN. The rifle tends to be very accurate IF it is put together right, the bad ones tend to be CIA butcher jobs, but you will need a good trigger job to get the most accuracy out of the weapon and again Mark the gunplumber will give you a decent trigger. I don't know where the "inch/Metric" thing is coming from, that is an FN issue, not an H&K/CETME. Likewise ANY barrel for this weapon has a fluted chamber, some don't have good flutes and will not work as well as standard barrels, but they are all fluted. You do need to be aware that H&K barrels use polygonal rifling and are bad to use with un-jacketed ammo, not as big a problem with a rifle as a pistol but good to know. I would get a paddle mag-release and a trigger job from Mark or Bill Springfield http://www.triggerwork.net/hk9xrifles.html (http://www.triggerwork.net/hk9xrifles.html) and run with it.
hope this helps.
Thanks for your input! Checked out the site you posted. Bill mentions doing m44 triggers, and ".44 Magnums".... If Bill will do a .44 carbine trigger for $45, I'M SENDING HIM MINE!!!!!
I've done dozens of trigger jobs, and have asked three gunsmiths to look at the trigger on my .44 carbine and NO ONE will touch the thing! It's the most complex monstrosity ever created by man! :o I can't even figure out how to take it apart, or how it works! Just dozens of springs everywhere... ???