The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: LittleRed on October 17, 2010, 06:17:52 PM
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A man rented a gun and committed suicide at a local range that I frequent. It rattled my cage a bit since I had the day off and I was planning on going there to take a friend shooting for the first time. Our plans fell through—thankfully as that is not the way I want to introduce someone to shooting.
Here is the news story:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/broward/fl-shooting-range-suicide-20101015,0,1664963.story (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/broward/fl-shooting-range-suicide-20101015,0,1664963.story)
And perhaps more detail from another forum:
As heard from witnesses who were inside the range at the time:
Man came in and seemed really nervous. Was asking a lot of question about guns and rented a few of them. Went to his lane and shot a few down range. He was asking for help with them and some of the witnesses helped him.. One told me that everybody thought there was something wrong with this guy. Just jittery and sweating. After putting a few down range with a .357 magnum he put the gun under his chin and pulled the trigger. He left a several page note in his car out front which the investigators retrieved.
In the quote above someone mentioned some clear warning signs—in hindsight! I tend to think we ALL see warning signs after the fact. But the truth is, they weren't enough to trigger a response.
I do most all of my shooting at public ranges. Rarely do I know the individuals shooting next to me. I don't know their level of proficiency/safety or their state of mind.
I am looking for and hope to start some discussion regarding awareness, safety, etc. while at ranges with strangers.
Do you introduce yourself? Strike up conversations? I've met some people on the range who do more talking than shooting, then there are those that prefer to be in the zone and stoically fire to some internal cadence. Do you keep looking over your shoulder?
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I honestly try to stay as far away from people I don't know at ranges.
If I see something mildly wrong I will help out. if I see something very wrong, I pack up and leave.
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I shoot at the Arizona Range from time to time!!! I shot the Gunman 1911 targets there 3 weeks ago. It is an unsupervised range, except for a camera. The "safety" lesson for those not trained lasts about 30 seconds.
Many of us here at DRTV have posted some really "scary stories" at our local ranges. Especially those that rent firearms. Rookies, completely uninstructed folks, those that simply can't shoot, those that don't know the rules, etc,...Pick a pistol, and go right on in.
FWIW, I am always putting eyes in the back of my head at ranges, even my private range Pop's Gun Club. It can happen so fast, that it's hard to figure out.
Thankfully, albeit tragically, he took his life only. At least he didn't want to take "a few with him'...
Glad to know you were not there LittleRed, when it happened. Check out Pop's Gun Club, off Hwy 27. just south of Holiday Park.
I'll send you a direct link, to the R.O. it's inexpensive, supervised by NRA Certified folks, and much more relaxing to shoot at.
Plus, it's outdoor, to 100yds, easy to join, has IDPA, and other weekly events. "Shoot me a PM" for the info.
Take Care.
tw
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Unfortunately, this has happened several times, at our local indoor range, always with rented pistols, makes a kind of sick since, if you don't own a firearm, spend your last 20 bucks to take your own life. I hate to imagine anyone that was there and witnessed it.
Now to public or private ranges, as a long time range officer, always be aware, just like life, My cop friends call it being, Fat, Dumb and happy, avoid that, keep your wits at all times, public ranges are dangerous, private ranges are less as general rule, but are no guaranty, watch those around you, if you get unconfortable, leave, don't pass go, don't collect 200$, just leave and carry on another day, I have seen sane people do dangerous things, due to lack of training, but endanger those around them. Many times.
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has happened twice in the last few years here at a supervised indoor range
there is a coroners inquiry going on at the moment
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Sadly very common.
Happen twice in one week at a new range when I lived in PA and once on the range where I worked part time after I left.
We had SOP's to deal with but I'm quite happy it happen after I left.
Why can't these dumb asses mess up their own home? No sympathy from yours truly.
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Why can't these dumb asses mess up their own home? No sympathy from yours truly.
My guess is they can't pass a NICS or live in a communist state.
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I've posted before about events at the open, public range near my house, mostly people doing Youtube stupid stuff.
This event happened at a private range where I was the Range Safety Officer. Guy comes in, puts his kit on the tables at the back of the firing maybe 20 feet from the shooting positions. He starts unloading his gun case on the table - a range no-no - and I immediately intervene. I tell him to recase his firearm and move the case to the shooting line, that the rules are just as I stated. His response? He picks the effing gun up and swings it toward me to show that it is empty and locked back. I put my hand down to block the gun and immediately use my cop voice to order him to put the weapon back in the case and move the case to the firing line. He says OK, then puts the firearm under his bicep and clamps it to his body - sweeping me in the process - and goes to pick up his case with both hands to take it to the firing line.
I put my hand on his arm and ordered him to stop, and case his weapon. He gets defensive and starts whining about how he's a new member and didn't know the rules - after I had just told him the rules. He did case the weapon and move to the firing line, at which point I went to get one of the other RSOs to assist me with ejecting this guy. The other RSO said he knew the guy, the guy had been shooting at the range before, and that he would talk with the guy. No backup, and the guy got to shoot.
I wonder how many others he pulled the "I'm new and don't know the rules" crap on? And I am rewriting the SOP so now the RSO will have clear authority to eject someone on the spot with no wiggle room.
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If they can't, they might as well not be there. Downside? You might get an Ahole RSO, but a complaint to management should fix that. It beats an unsafe shooter every time.
FQ13
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I've posted before about events at the open, public range near my house, mostly people doing Youtube stupid stuff.
This event happened at a private range where I was the Range Safety Officer. Guy comes in, puts his kit on the tables at the back of the firing maybe 20 feet from the shooting positions. He starts unloading his gun case on the table - a range no-no - and I immediately intervene. I tell him to recase his firearm and move the case to the shooting line, that the rules are just as I stated. His response? He picks the effing gun up and swings it toward me to show that it is empty and locked back. I put my hand down to block the gun and immediately use my cop voice to order him to put the weapon back in the case and move the case to the firing line. He says OK, then puts the firearm under his bicep and clamps it to his body - sweeping me in the process - and goes to pick up his case with both hands to take it to the firing line.
I put my hand on his arm and ordered him to stop, and case his weapon. He gets defensive and starts whining about how he's a new member and didn't know the rules - after I had just told him the rules. He did case the weapon and move to the firing line, at which point I went to get one of the other RSOs to assist me with ejecting this guy. The other RSO said he knew the guy, the guy had been shooting at the range before, and that he would talk with the guy. No backup, and the guy got to shoot.
I wonder how many others he pulled the "I'm new and don't know the rules" crap on? And I am rewriting the SOP so now the RSO will have clear authority to eject someone on the spot with no wiggle room.
Zero tolerance ? ::)
My guess is they can't pass a NICS or live in a communist state.
Most likely liberals who never owned a gun, but don't have the guts for poison or slitting their wrists.
Actually, I would not have been suspicious, renting several guns, asking questions etc. I would have figured he was a rank beginner, nervous around unfamiliar tools.
But it boils down to one basic fact, f*cked up people do f*cked up things. accept it and try not to be part of the collateral damage.
There is no other option, in Japan, where guns are illegal, and the suicide rate is double ours, they commit suicide with chemical fumes, sometimes they get it wrong and blow up or gas an entire building.
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I have to say that I learned a lot while working at the range about firearms. Ninety five percent of the folks were great and the boss let us show the other five percent the door. He never second guessed us in front of the customer.
One life member showed up drunk and wanted to shoot. When he refused to leave the owner reached into his pocket, paid him back the membership fee and then called the cops. It is easy to work for somebody like that.
We had two ND’s outside of the range, both by LEO’s. One skipped a round off the floor into an employee; one cop shot the cash register.
One Philly cop had a malfunction on the range and carried his pistol into the store. Officer O then points at my buddy and says something like my bang stick no go boom. My friend sweeps the muzzle from his face and tells him to let go of the gun. Officer O thinks he is getting disarmed and starts wrestling for control of the pistol.
This goes on for several seconds before the light goes on in Officer O head that he is waving around a loaded pistol and about to get lit up by a very angry range officer.
Officer O was severely embarrassed and realized what a bonehead move he had made. Range officer gave him a 30 day time out and mandated he take an in-house training class before he was allowed on the range. Officer O was a completely different guy after that and ended up a competent gunman.
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Zero tolerance ? ::)
Let's see -
1. Violates a posted rule, a rule that he had to read and sign before joining the range
2. Disobeys a direct order from the RSO to case his weapon
3. Disobeys another direct order to case his weapon
4. Violates another basic gun safety rule by sweeping the RSO (twice) and the range
5. Lies to the RSO about not knowing the rules
6. Fellow RSO fails to back the primary RSO up
Zero tolerance? Damn straight in that circumstance. I do like ratcatcher's ideas of additional options, such as suspension, etc., I may have to factor those in. But the primary line RSO should have the final authority on what constitutes safety on the line and compliance with the rules.
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The range is not a democracy. The RSO IS THE LAW!!!
Just remember "Those that enforce the law must obey the law."
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The range is not a democracy. The RSO IS THE LAW!!!
Just remember "Those that enforce the law must obey the law."
My favorite range makes things easy. It has two rules. Actions open until at your station, and no rapid fire without permission. It has two commands: The Range Is Hot. The Range is cold.
Easy, idiot proof, and good RSO's. Everyone knows what the deal is, and no excuses. I've never been uncomfortable there.
FQ13
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Path, I was just yanking your chain, Safety is about the only time Zero Tolerance actually makes good sense.
But I had to get in the dig since we have ALL commented/ranted, about how ZT removes the need for thought.
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My favorite range makes things easy. It has two rules. Actions open until at your station, and no rapid fire without permission. It has two commands: The Range Is Hot. The Range is cold.
Easy, idiot proof, and good RSO's. Everyone knows what the deal is, and no excuses. I've never been uncomfortable there.
FQ13
Nothing is idiot proof....except maybe death....and even that is sometimes sped along by idiots. ;) ;D
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great posts-
I have had one situaion with suicide on a range.
No warning signs, guy was friendly but not overly friendly.
Had new and old gear, ( only one gun)
After it happen I would have bet my life it was an accident.
I shit in my pants when I watched the video.
Use your situational awareness, your training will kick in.
If you train like shit, you may be screwed.
Take a class. any class.
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Unfortunately, this has happened several times, at our local indoor range, always with rented pistols, makes a kind of sick since, if you don't own a firearm, spend your last 20 bucks to take your own life. I hate to imagine anyone that was there and witnessed it.
Same story here in Phoenix. We've had multiple suicides at all 3 of our public indoor ranges. They try not to publicize it too much for obvious reasons, but word always gets out among the shooters. It's one of the reasons why I won't shoot at indoor ranges anymore. That, along with the "Gangsta" idiot's that always manage to show up and act stupid, waving their guns around. I was muzzle swept twice at the range I used to attend. After the second time I complained to the clerk behind the counter. (They have several closed circuit cameras to monitor the range). He simply shrugged his shoulders and gave me this blank, "give a $h!t" look. After that I said no more and joined a private club. It was something I should have done years ago, and am glad that I did.
The only problem is that it gets way too hot here in the Summer to shoot outdoors. The range I quit going to has been taken over by new owners, and they've even expanded it, opening up another store closer to me. But I'm still a bit apprehensive about going back. For some reason I'm noticing an increase of idiot's with guns. Perhaps it's just like everything else in society that has been undergoing a "dumbing down" process over the last several decades, I don't know. But it's a shame to see it. Between all of the mall ninjas with their AR-15's, and an over abundance of the "Gangsta" types, it seems firearms ownership has taken a turn for the worse. There are still a lot of super people in the gun game, it just seems you have to look harder to find them. Bill T.
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Quoth Billt.
" For some reason I'm noticing an increase of idiot's with guns. Perhaps it's just like everything else in society that has been undergoing a "dumbing down" process over the last several decades, I don't know. But it's a shame to see it. Between all of the mall ninjas with their AR-15's, and an over abundance of the "Gangsta" types, it seems firearms ownership has taken a turn for the worse. There are still a lot of super people in the gun game, it just seems you have to look harder to find them." Bill T.
There is a silver lining here. Its that guns are becoming more popular again. I think a lot of the problem is that it skipped a generation or two. Its no longer a case of a family tradition of hunting handed down from granddad on down. Now folks who's parents and grandparents didn't hunt and were too Pc to own Sd guns are buying range toys or getting CCWs. You can't assume the same level of education.We have to step up. Its why I'd love to see more ranges sponsor clubs, either sponsored by the NRA or other goups to stress safety and low level, low dollar competition. Things like "reloading for dummies clinics" and as 'practical' a competition as you can get indoors would help draw a lot of these folks into a group of experenced and safe shooters. Its also a good idea to wecome the non-traditional shooters. Don't assume you are a conservative if you own a gun. Women, minorities etc should feel they are joining a club, not a political party. Its some work, but a great opportunity as well.
FQ13
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I agree with FQ. (No, really!)
More gun owners is good for us in numbers but basic math means more boneheads along with that, My wife and I quit our in door rnage for a better (and cheaper) local club. The reason was because of the high probability of being killed by an idiot.
I also disagree that the SD and CCW crowds represent a "dumbing down" of the gun community. I don't hunt these days but I have seen a lot of hunters that are as dangerous as any newbie pistol owner. Idiots are idiots.
The more people who value gun ownership, the better. Safety will always be an issue.
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I also disagree that the SD and CCW crowds represent a "dumbing down" of the gun community.
I think the CCW people represent the higher intelligence level of new gun owners. Bill T.