The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: tt11758 on November 16, 2010, 11:06:53 AM
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http://www.thehawkeye.com/story/Gun-law-111510 (http://www.thehawkeye.com/story/Gun-law-111510)
Local gun merchants are reporting an increase in firearm sales, specifically handguns, and area sheriffs are bracing themselves for a possible onslaught of new applicants as the new weapons carry permit law takes effect Jan. 1.
New application forms will be available in most sheriffs' offices this week. Applicants can pick them up but will not be able to return the forms until after Jan. 1.
Area county top cops have raised grave concerns about the new law, but said they will follow its requirements to the letter.
The National Rifle Association, however, praised lawmakers for what it calls "bringing back the right of the people to keep and bear arms, guaranteed under the Constitution."
Come January, Iowa will become a "shall-issue" state, joining 38 other states, which have enacted similar measures.
Senate File 2379, adopted 44-4, created uniform standards in all 99 counties for issuing permits to carry a firearm in public. Under the current law, local sheriffs can either grant or deny permits, with each county setting its own standards.
According to a state data, nearly 36,000 Iowans have permits to carry weapons. Starting in January, sheriffs can no longer require permit holders to keep their weapons, which not only includes handguns, but rifles and shotguns, concealed when they're in public.
Concerns and the 'new order'
One of the foremost vocal opponents of the new law, Des Moines County Sheriff Mike Johnstone, who also is an elected member of the board of directors of the Iowa Sheriffs and Deputies Association, said SF 2379 does not properly address many issues, first and foremost the training accompanying the qualification for a permit.
On the subject of carrying long guns in public, Johnstone said: "they can openly carry those over their shoulders, which I think will really disturb a lot of people."
"They can basically go anywhere with a loaded rifle, loaded shotgun, loaded AK47, loaded AR15 assault rifle," the sheriff added. "If they have a permit to carry, they can do that without restriction. That is a huge concern for me."
Of course there are places where carrying loaded weapons remains prohibited, such as a school zone, and the topic of firearms restrictions on private property and in the workplace is not addressed in Iowa firearms law.
"In my opinion, the whole thing is a political issue that was pushed through the governor's office right on down in an effort to gain votes," Johnstone said, adding state politicians got input from their local sheriffs about the bill "and they went against the recommendation of their local sheriffs. Very few of us agree that this needed to go to a shall-issue state."
The new carry-permit process does not require applicants to prove they have had practical training in shooting the weapon they will carry.
"You may not have fired this weapon, and you can legally carry it," Johnstone said. "Basically, you don't have to fire the weapon (in a shooting range) or have any training with the weapon in order to get a permit."
State residents who need to carry a handgun for their job can get a permit at 18 years old. Otherwise, applicants will need to be 21 years old to get a non-professional permit, which could be denied for several factors, including alcohol addiction or probable cause based on filed documents of past actions "that an applicant might use a weapon in a way to endanger himself, others or the public safety."
Anyone convicted of misdemeanor assault in the past three years will be denied a permit.
Also, the current fee of $10 will jump to $50 for five years with a $25-renewal fee. Applicants also must prove they went to a certified safety training course.
Although a person adjudicated as mentally ill is prohibited from getting a permit, someone who has mental issues and is under a doctor's care can get a permit.
"A person (under the new law) can walk into a tavern and drink to the point of intoxication and still openly carry the weapon," Johnstone said. "I'm a firm believer in the Second Amendment and the right to protect yourself, but to totally throw out the discretion (of the sheriff) creates a public issue."
Like Johnstone, Lee County Sheriff Jim Sholl has concerns with the new carry permit.
"Do I agree with the law? Well, I wish the sheriffs could enjoy some discretion in the matter, but they have taken that away from us," Sholl said. "Our position through the Iowa Sheriffs and Deputies Association is that it is the law and we intend to enforce that law - it does not matter whether we agree or disagree."
Sholl said the training issue draws some of the most concern.
"There should be some training requirements on the range learning how to use the weapon," Sholl said, likening it to someone getting a driver's license. "If you get a driver's license, you have to demonstrate your skills (in driving a vehicle)."
Another contention Sholl has is the allowing of permit holders to carry weapons up to the point of intoxication. He said legislators did not set parameters for law enforcement to tackle violations.
"They kind of left that window open," he said. "I just hope the majority of the citizens who choose to obtain a permit are going to act responsibly."
Johnstone said that doesn't always happen.
"The first thing that goes with alcohol use is judgment," he said.
Options for denial
A person denied a permit by a sheriff could appeal the decision through an administrative law process, then to a district court.
Sheriffs also would be required to put into writing the reasons for a denial.
In the past, sheriffs used their knowledge of their jurisdiction to pinpoint those who may have hidden problems, such as anger issues or non-adjuticated mental problems.
In Louisa County, Sheriff Brad Turner said he knows of five people in his county "that I'm pretty sure are going to be coming in to get a permit to carry and because of our in-house records and what not, I know they have no business having immediate access to a handgun."
"I don't know what type of records or what type of information is going to be enough to deny these people a permit to carry," Turner added.
Turner noted it also could be costly for taxpayers in the event a sheriff denies an application, due to the long process of an administrative proceeding or court battle.
"I agree with a lot of the law, but the law was pushed through so fast and it's so vague," Turner noted. "But some sheriffs may have created this problem. Some would not issue a single permit and some issue 300 a year. There was no uniformity."
Turner said he knows of a few people in his county he will deny and he is ready to put those denials in writing, as the new law would require.
"If I'm ordered by a judge to issue a permit and something bad happens, the first thing I'm going to show is that order," Turner confidently said, adding there has been a great demand in Louisa County to get permits the past year or so.
Johnstone said there are close to 600 permits to carry issued in Des Moines County. The number includes law enforcement and other related fields.
Three hundred to 400 are issued in Van Buren County, while there are 272 weapons carriers in Henry County.
So far, Louisa County has issued approximately 200 permits, and 84 are reported in Lee County.
Triumph
The Legislature passed the law last spring, with Democratic leaders in state House along with the Iowa Senate and Gov. Chet Culver, a Democrat, siding with the NRA and not with the sheriffs association, which strongly opposed it.
Alexa Fritts, a spokeswoman for NRA, said Iowa has fallen behind on gun rights legislation.
"We think (the new law) is a real victory for law-abiding gun owners in Iowa," she said. "It's only fair. If a person passes their background check and meets the other requirements of getting a permit, why should anyone be able to tell them on a whim that they should not be able to get a permit to defend themselves and their families?"
"These are law-abiding people we're talking about," Fritts noted. "It's not surprising that some of the sheriffs are upset about it because they like having that control. That's not the way our right to keep and bear arms is meant to be doled out."
Fritts said often in "may-issue" states, sheriffs would not grant a permit to "somebody who they just don't like for some personal reason."
"Or maybe they show favoritism to their friends and other people are left waiting and waiting and waiting to get their permits," Fritts said. "This law keeps things fair."
NRA, according to Fritts, is set to make Iowa one of its priorities for pushing more pro-gun legislation in the upcoming legislative session.
Sales are up
"Everybody's talking about it," Steve Hardy of Hardy Gun and Loan in Burlington said about the new permit process.
Hardy said his sales went up 50 percent to 75 percent, especially in recent months in anticipation of the change in the law.
"Guys are talking about it (getting handguns) for their wives, their girlfriends," Hardy said. "There are some, truck drivers for example, wanting something, a small concealable weapon for their home or while they are traveling."
Hardy agrees with the sheriffs who have concerns regarding range qualifying to get a permit. He said law enforcement officers have to qualify in the firing range twice a year, why not Joe the Plumber?
"That's plain old stupid for people asking for permits to not be required to prove they are proficient with the weapon," Hardy said.
When it comes to sales, Hardy said he had been selling quite a few smaller handguns, "such as a small .380, 9mm or smaller .45 slim models."
There also is a market for the reliable .38 caliber snub nose revolver, he added.
In West Burlington, Farm King also reported its handgun sales have been up the past year.
Letter of the law
The only way sheriffs can deny applicants who have passed background checks is through having probable cause that a person could be a danger to himself or others.
But what is probable cause under the new law?
Johnstone said it is vague.
There is talk, Johnstone said, of possibly standardizing the training, but he said he doubts the change will happen soon.
Johnstone said nearly 50 organizations have lobbied against the bill, including the American Civil Liberties Union, Iowa Medical Society, National Alliance for the Mentally Ill and the League of Women Voters.
Johnstone said lawmakers have ignored the dangers of pursuing such a drastic measure, focusing only on political fruits and not the end result.
"The legislators were all warned, they were all told," he said. "But they chose to do it anyway. The law is a lot worse that what we expected."
Work did not end with the passing of the bill into law. Johnstone said the sheriffs association will continue to work next year in addressing issues under the new issuance of permits, including getting the training standardized and clarified, parameters dealing with those with mental issues and the open carrying of firearms, just to name a few.
Johnstone said like any other sheriffs, he is preparing for a possible increase in permit applications come January, noting, "I think there's a lot of people poised out there to jump on this."
But for now, sheriffs have no choice but to fulfill their duties.
"It's the law and we plan to follow it to the letter," Johnstone said. "We can only work to make the law safer as time goes by."
Is it just me, or do some of these guys sound more like people who are incensed that their little fiefdoms were challenged, rather than having legitimate concerns on public safety?
Again.........WHAT PART OF "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" IS SO FREAKING HARD TO UNDERSTAND?!?
btw: Emphasis in the quoted portion is mine.
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Is it just me, or do some of these guys sound more like people who are incensed that their little fiefdoms were challenged, rather than having legitimate concerns on public safety?
sure looks that way to me. hope they don't screw up what has been so hard fought to achieve. good luck Iowa!
deepwater
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This is the same paranoia that is spread in every State when they pass "must Issue" carry laws. I recall in Minnesota when the law passed you would have thought a carry permit (MN is is a carry permit not only a concealed carry permit - you can carry as you wish.) gives one a license to kill.
The sky didn't fall and no permit holder has been involved in a non-justified shooting. Except one guy who shot his car.
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Is it just me, or do some of these guys sound more like people who are incensed that their little fiefdoms were challenged, rather than having legitimate concerns on public safety?
That's pretty much it IMHO.......they're pissed that some of their 'power' has been 'taken away'.
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Alot of what he said is true. Rather you like it or lot does not make it less true.
Carrying a long gun over your shoulder is going to scare some people, thats never going to change, get use to it.
"The first thing that goes with alcohol use is judgment,"
honestly, is there anyone here that disagrees with that statement?
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NH has no training requirement and is a "Shall issue" state.
Just saw an Item in the free paper this morning that it is also the safest in the nation, for the 3rd straight year.
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Alot of what he said is true. Rather you like it or lot does not make it less true.
Carrying a long gun over your shoulder is going to scare some people, thats never going to change, get use to it.
honestly, is there anyone here that disagrees with that statement?
Um, I have to disagree!!! I live in a place, where historically, and pretty much up until about 20 years ago (when we started getting the huge influx of libtards from Cali) Drinking, Driving, and Shooting stuff was the state sport. It was rare to open up a pickup and NOT find a gun, a bottle, and a fishing pole. Usually all in plain view on the front seat. All was good as long as you didn't shoot the signs, and you left the gates closed. Hell, what's judgment anyway?
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Truth is, America ran on booze till prohibition. from the Rum punch drank by the Founding Fathers to the lunchtime beer of the guy's who built the Empire state building, Hoover dam, and Golden gate bridge.
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There is a big diffrence between having a gun in a truck and going into the store with one on your shoulder.
20 years ago I use to ride my bike about 15 miles to the next county over with a 22 straped to my back. County and state officals would trade 22 shells for ground squrrel tails. They were digging into the leaves. This was in California, right accross the river from "Old town" and only about mile from the capitol.
How far do you think a 8-10 year old would get now with a 22 straped to his back? What do you think would happen to say a game warden or a flood control guy if they were cuaght handing out 22 shells?
I did that for years, never got in trouble with the cops, One time I had one take me home after he saw me walking my bike home after dark as I had a flat tire.
Hell what do you think the chances of a cop taking a kid, his bike ( and rifle of corse) home becuase he had a flat tire are these days?
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Truth is, America ran on booze till prohibition. from the Rum punch drank by the Founding Fathers to the lunchtime beer of the guy's who built the Empire state building, Hoover dam, and Golden gate bridge.
As most of you know, I was a general contractor that spealized in 100+ year old homes.
The old saying they don't make them like they use too, Is a very, very good thing trust me. Yes every one was drunk back them, thats why alot of the work was complete and utter crap.
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As most of you know, I was a general contractor that spealized in 100+ year old homes.
The old saying they don't make them like they use too, Is a very, very good thing trust me. Yes every one was drunk back them, thats why alot of the work was complete and utter crap.
Not disagreeing with you at all....but I've seen some 10 year old houses built like crap too. ;D
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If you ignore the media hysteria you will most likely find that the law has nothing to do with long guns which generally come under hunting regulations rather than "carry" laws.
For example, In Maine, with a CCW you can legally carry a loaded pistol any time, any where (Except Federal buildings etc. ) However, They do not permit hunting on Sundays, if a Game warden finds you with a rifle , even unloaded, in the woods on Sunday, or with out a hunting license it is considered Prima Facie evidence of illegal hunting, SD and carry regulations never enter the picture.
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Alot of what he said is true. Rather you like it or lot does not make it less true.
Carrying a long gun over your shoulder is going to scare some people, thats never going to change, get use to it.
honestly, is there anyone here that disagrees with that statement?
When gays began openly marching for gay rights, "really disturbed a lot of people". Those who were disturbed by it were told to "get used to it, we have our rights". How is this different TAB?
While I will say that I have no plans to walk down Main Street, Iowa with a loaded rifle slung over my shoulder, "shall not be infringed" gives me that right.
Carrying a long gun over your shoulder is going to scare some people
Show me where the Constitution guarantees somebody's right to not be scared. Hell, if it was in there, the government would be eradicating spiders from my house cause they scare the hell out of the wife.
Try to use rational arguments, and stay away from emotion. The anti's use it because it's all they have. Don't lower yourself to their level.
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If you ignore the media hysteria you will most likely find that the law has nothing to do with long guns which generally come under hunting regulations rather than "carry" laws.
For example, In Maine, with a CCW you can legally carry a loaded pistol any time, any where (Except Federal buildings etc. ) However, They do not permit hunting on Sundays, if a Game warden finds you with a rifle , even unloaded, in the woods on Sunday, or with out a hunting license it is considered Prima Facie evidence of illegal hunting, SD and carry regulations never enter the picture.
The new Iowa law doesn't distinguish between handguns, long guns, knives, tasers, etc, when it comes to legal carry of a weapon. That being said, the law is set up for DNR regulations to trump carry permit laws. So, if you're carrying a gun (handgun, shotung, rifle, etc) during deer bow hunting season you'll get your pee-pee slapped by the DNR. Likewise, if you're carrying a loaded, uncased shot gun in your vehicle in the country during pheasant season, the Game Warden will want a word with you.
The bottom line here, in my opinion, is common sense. Apparently certain of Iowa's Sheriffs don't believe their constituents have any.
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Not disagreeing with you at all....but I've seen some 10 year old houses built like crap too. ;D
SO have I, but atleast they know what 16" on center is when it comes to studs or atleast close too it.
Its not uncommon at all to open up a wall and find studs every where from 8"-36" center in the same damn wall.
I can count on one hand the houses I've remodeled that frame was structurally sound. All the others its either rot or plain bad carpentry. Most of the time it was a wonder they were still standing. Hell I even hired one SE one time that went into the basement to get measurements for drawings. He came back out in about 2 mins and said he refused to go back under there as he was a afriad the house was going to colapse on him.
PS yes I did fire his ass on the spot. ;D
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When gays began openly marching for gay rights, "really disturbed a lot of people". Those who were disturbed by it were told to "get used to it, we have our rights". How is this different TAB?
They are not even close.
Who said anything about me saying it should be illegal?
all I said was the Cheif was right on a few points.
Like it or not carrying around a long gun is going to scare some people. Which will lead to probs, trust me, sooner or latter some one is going to make a big stink about it.
The qoute about the 1st thing going is judgement when booze is envoled is also true.
Just becuase you don't agree with something, does not make it less true.
One more thing, shall not be infringed does not mean what you think it means. At the federal level, the 2a means you can have a gun at the ready in your home, for both sporting and SD. Like it or not, thats what courts have ruled and thats what will be enforced. States have diffrent rules, but they all must comply to atleast that.
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They are not even close.
Who said anything about me saying it should be illegal?
all I said was the Cheif was right on a few points.
Like it or not carrying around a long gun is going to scare some people. Which will lead to probs, trust me, sooner or latter some one is going to make a big stink about it.
The qoute about the 1st thing going is judgement when booze is envoled is also true.
Just becuase you don't agree with something, does not make it less true.
One more thing, shall not be infringed does not mean what you think it means. At the federal level, the 2a means you can have a gun at the ready in your home, for both sporting and SD. Like it or not, thats what courts have ruled and thats what will be enforced. States have diffrent rules, but they all must comply to atleast that.
TAB, you are wrong. However, since I'll not be changing your mind, I'll just leave you with your own words, "Just because you don't agree with something does not make it less true."
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Seems to me the word "Compromise" is not in TAB's vocabulary.
Capitulate is as resistant as he gets.
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As most of you know, I was a general contractor that spealized in 100+ year old homes.
The old saying they don't make them like they use too, Is a very, very good thing trust me. Yes every one was drunk back them, thats why alot of the work was complete and utter crap.
But they were still standing, weren't they ? ;D
One thing I have seen in houses built during the depression or WWII era (lumber was among rationed items during WWII )
is studs, and floor joists 32 inches on center, because the builder could not get enough lumber for 16 on center.
Had a job back in the 80's putting in the missing joists, what fun ::) Then of course there was the Canadian 5/8ths boards.
It's part of why I got out of that crap as soon as I could.
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TAB, you are wrong. However, since I'll not be changing your mind, I'll just leave you with your own words, "Just because you don't agree with something does not make it less true."
Tell me how and were I am wrong.
Compromise is in my vocab, but I'm not arguing the merits or short comings of the law in question, only that the cheif is right when it comes to 2 things.
1 guns scare some people.
2 being intoxicated decreases people abilty to make sound judgments.
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Tell me how and were I am wrong.
Compromise is in my vocab, but I'm not arguing the merits or short comings of the law in question, only that the cheif is right when it comes to 2 things.
1 guns scare some people.
2 being intoxicated decreases people abilty to make sound judgments.
Your current avatar being a case in point ? ;D
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But they were still standing, weren't they ? ;D
One thing I have seen in houses built during the depression or WWII era (lumber was among rationed items during WWII )
is studs, and floor joists 32 inches on center, because the builder could not get enough lumber for 16 on center.
Had a job back in the 80's putting in the missing joists, what fun ::) Then of course there was the Canadian 5/8ths boards.
It's part of why I got out of that crap as soon as I could.
whats fun was the "ornageberg pipe"
For those that don't know what is, its a fiber glass and generally asbestos renefored paper pipes that were then diped in asphalt. they have a habit of going flat. We are talking a 4" will become a pancake that is maybe 3/4" thick.
one of many tom, one of many...
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There is a big diffrence between having a gun in a truck and going into the store with one on your shoulder.
20 years ago I use to ride my bike about 15 miles to the next county over with a 22 straped to my back. County and state officals would trade 22 shells for ground squrrel tails. They were digging into the leaves. This was in California, right accross the river from "Old town" and only about mile from the capitol.
How far do you think a 8-10 year old would get now with a 22 straped to his back? What do you think would happen to say a game warden or a flood control guy if they were cuaght handing out 22 shells?
I did that for years, never got in trouble with the cops, One time I had one take me home after he saw me walking my bike home after dark as I had a flat tire.
Hell what do you think the chances of a cop taking a kid, his bike ( and rifle of corse) home becuase he had a flat tire are these days?
There is a big difference between me having my 1911 in the glove box and in my waist band as well. However, I am still going to carry it. And when I am trying on jackets or reaching for stuff up high some people are going to see it.
8 - 10 year old with the .22 over their shoulder ... oh please bring back the good old days! I can remember the days of kids riding their bikes out to hunt rabbits, squirrels and gophers. The liberal side has sensitized us in a bad way.
I listen to many, and TAB you are one of them, that tell me we are too in their face. They tell me to settle down and work quietly. They tell me to be gentle and flex a little. F*** NO!!! We have been too quiet, gentle and flexible! We didn't lose our freedoms - we gave them away.
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Seems like simple convenience will limit or eliminate the number of people wandering around with loaded rifles and shot guns as SD weapons.
Try it for 24 hours, it's a PITA. ;D
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Seems like simple convenience will limit or eliminate the number of people wandering around with loaded rifles and shot guns as SD weapons.
Try it for 24 hours, it's a PITA. ;D
Exactly. I've lumped around with a rifle slung on my back for seemingly unending periods of time. NOT the most fun I ever had with my pants on.
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Enforce current law(s)...To carry concealed, there is usually a ZERO tolerance standard with regards to alcohol. For open carry states, if a drunk idiot is carrying an AR or 12g, on his shoulder chugging tequila, than Darwin was right, he gets arrested, or gets shot.
Yes, openly armed citizens will always scare the grass eaters, but as statistics have proven, "An armed society, is a polite society."
The cops will have to,........uh,....do their jobs, enforce current laws, and remember 40,000,000 guns killed NO ONE TODAY.
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Tell me how and were I am wrong.
Compromise is in my vocab, but I'm not arguing the merits or short comings of the law in question, only that the cheif is right when it comes to 2 things.
1 guns scare some people.
2 being intoxicated decreases people abilty to make sound judgments.
Were you are wrong, TAB, is in your statement Get Used To It.
Don't try to change it, don't fight it...just Bend Over And Get Used To It.
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8 - 10 year old with the .22 over their shoulder ... oh please bring back the good old days! I can remember the days of kids riding their bikes out to hunt rabbits, squirrels and gophers. The liberal side has sensitized us in a bad way.
Both my boys would come home from school.. eat a snack then grab their 22's and head across town to the old dam road and river.. They would shoot turtles.. hedge apples.. squirrels..
One time Danny was on his bike..and the local cop stopped him and ask if he could shoot him a couple squirrels for their supper.. He did.. and upon delivery that evening...was offered payment.Danny told him no.. so he gave him a box of 22's .
That was in 1982,, We have certainly gone downhill from there..
(Although we still can carry guns etc around this area in our back truck windows etc.. I imagine kids can still take their rifles down to the river too without incident for the most part.)
But I think our area here is few and far between what is elsewhere. And it is slowly changing.. so I imagine the paranoia will creep here too sometime in the near future.
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Both my boys would come home from school.. eat a snack then grab their 22's and head across town to the old dam road and river.. They would shoot turtles.. hedge apples.. squirrels..
One time Danny was on his bike..and the local cop stopped him and ask if he could shoot him a couple squirrels for their supper.. He did.. and upon delivery that evening...was offered payment.Danny told him no.. so he gave him a box of 22's .
That was in 1982,, We have certainly gone downhill from there..
(Although we still can carry guns etc around this area in our back truck windows etc.. I imagine kids can still take their rifles down to the river too without incident for the most part.)
But I think our area here is few and far between what is elsewhere. And it is slowly changing.. so I imagine the paranoia will creep here too sometime in the near future.
I seem to recall a strange black and white spiral spinning in front of me and the voice of Rod Serling echoing as I crossed a ridge in the Flint Hills while riding toward Howard ;)
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Both my boys would come home from school.. eat a snack then grab their 22's and head across town to the old dam road and river.. They would shoot turtles.. hedge apples.. squirrels..
One time Danny was on his bike..and the local cop stopped him and ask if he could shoot him a couple squirrels for their supper.. He did.. and upon delivery that evening...was offered payment.Danny told him no.. so he gave him a box of 22's .
That was in 1982,, We have certainly gone downhill from there..
(Although we still can carry guns etc around this area in our back truck windows etc.. I imagine kids can still take their rifles down to the river too without incident for the most part.)
But I think our area here is few and far between what is elsewhere. And it is slowly changing.. so I imagine the paranoia will creep here too sometime in the near future.
It was the late 80s for me. Litterly less then a mile away from the capitol building.
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Dittoes TAB. Not the bike thing, but when I was 16 (the legal age to hunt without an adult in Fl. at the time), my dad would drive me to the Big Cypress and help me and a friend (or just me at times) launch a canoe, camping gear and a shotgun and rod to go hunting on Friday. He'd go on to Everglades City to hang out with friends. He'd pick us up at noon on Sunday. These days he'd be charged with child abuse. ::) :P
FQ13
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We used to take our shotguns and deer rifles to school when I was in high school. Hell, when I was going to our local JuCo 22 years ago, I carried a rifle to one of my classes as a class project. All I had to do was drop by the campus security office and let them know I had it.......boy have times changed rapidly.
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When Norinco first started importing AK's I bought one. A friend came over and wanted to go try it out he was parked across the street and as we went out with the AK in one hand and a case of ammo in the other, one of the local cops stopped to let me cross the street into the school parking lot where my buddies car was ;D
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I seem to recall a strange black and white spiral spinning in front of me and the voice of Rod Serling echoing as I crossed a ridge in the Flint Hills while riding toward Howard ;)
And you didn't stop and say "Hey" to me on your way through? I'm hurt. :'(
;D
Tom, I remember when I was in high school my Algebra teacher taught me how to field strip and clean his CMP M-1 Garand, in a class room during his off hour! I don't think I went to school withOUT a shotgun or .22 in my car. Time surely have changed, and not for the better.
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And you didn't stop and say "Hey" to me on your way through? I'm hurt. :'(
;D
Tom, I remember when I was in high school my Algebra teacher taught me how to field strip and clean his CMP M-1 Garand, in a class room during his off hour! I don't think I went to school withOUT a shotgun or .22 in my car. Time surely have changed, and not for the better.
This July I promise! You have no idea how close I get to your current location.
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2 things jump out at me in the article:
A - The new carry-permit process does not require applicants to prove they have had practical training in shooting the weapon they will carry.
Yet it says: Also, the current fee of $10 will jump to $50 for five years with a $25-renewal fee. Applicants also must prove they went to a certified safety training course.
So which is it??
B: In Louisa County, Sheriff Brad Turner said he knows of five people in his county "that I'm pretty sure are going to be coming in to get a permit to carry and because of our in-house records and what not, I know they have no business having immediate access to a handgun."
If you did your freaking job and arrested those people instead of keeping "in-house records" and "what not" it wouldn't be an issue would it?!! And what exactly is "what not"? Personal beef perhaps?
"If I'm ordered by a judge to issue a permit and something bad happens, the first thing I'm going to show is that order," Turner confidently said, adding there has been a great demand in Louisa County to get permits the past year or so.
So he does know what official paperwork is. Amazing.
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Sheriff is an elected position here.
In NH these "people" would not have jobs.
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"If I'm ordered by a judge to issue a permit and something bad happens, the first thing I'm going to show is that order," Turner confidently said, adding there has been a great demand in Louisa County to get permits the past year or so.
thats a CYA move and I would do the same thing. So would most of us if they were in his shoes.
If the people that elected him don't like it, they can always elect some one else.
One more thing, if you truely beleave some one is a danger and has no place getting a CCW, then they should not get one.
I can think of 3 things off the top of my head that would allow some one that should not have a gun/ccw to have one.
1 they went to a mental hosipital of thier own free will. a guy could be nuts, but if he has never been held in one aginst his will, he can still have a firearm.
2 had charges droped do to "funny " stuff
3 has had several NDs over the years,
yeah, that might not jive to well with all of you, but do you really want some one that has had several NDs c
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A - The new carry-permit process does not require applicants to prove they have had practical training in shooting the weapon they will carry.
Yet it says: Also, the current fee of $10 will jump to $50 for five years with a $25-renewal fee. Applicants also must prove they went to a certified safety training course.
So which is it??
The certified safety training course I took for my permit was classroom only. IMHO it was not much of a course. Also, in Colorado your permit does not specify the weapon it is applicable for.
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Frankly, as long as your CCW is about the same as your DL in terms of cost and hassel, I'm not really going to bitch. I mean yeah, we can can stand on our high horse. For me what matters is that all comers who are "at least as tall as this sign" can pay a reasonable fee and get the permit approved is a win. $25-$50, a test, no test; as long as its quick, uniform and easily available, I'll live with it. Again, the DL is the standard. Am I wrong here?
FQ13
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This debate is showing that we have lost sight of one central fact:
The Right to Keep and Bear Arms is a Constitutionally protected Right!
If a person has not had his Rights removed legally, no body in the United States of America has the right to deny him.
"In house records and what nots" that have not been acted on through the legal system do not give grounds to deny a Constitutional Right. It is this line of thought that has states rightly acting to pass "shall issue" laws. As much as I enjoy it around here, I fear what a few on this forum would do to our Rights if they had the power.
I know a few here will disagree, and lawyers, judges and scardy cats (sorry Haz) have twisted our heritage, but the Second Amendment IS our shall issue permit for all United States Citizens that have "kept their noses clean."
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thats a CYA move and I would do the same thing. So would most of us if they were in his shoes.
Of course it's a CYA move. When I retired, I had been a fireman for 31+ years and 27+ of those years were as a Firefighter Paramedic. 99% of what we did was CYA. But, we did it on official paperwork, not "in house records and what not".
The bastard needs to get off his ass and do his friggin job.
I can think of 3 things off the top of my head that would allow some one that should not have a gun/ccw to have one.
1 they went to a mental hosipital of thier own free will. a guy could be nuts, but if he has never been held in one aginst his will, he can still have a firearm.
2 had charges droped do to "funny " stuff
3 has had several NDs over the years,
1. Going to a mental hospital does not mean you're "nuts".
Doing so voluntarily shows that someone recognizes they need help and is actively trying to get it. There are thousands of people including veterans, cops, fireman, and John Q that seek help for PTSD related issues, depression, etc.
Having a blanket denial in place would rob a lot of people of their rights unnecessarily and soon, some of those people would not get help because of fear of the stigma you would put on them. You can be completely bugf%k crazy and never have been treated, let alone have been in a hospital.
2. Do you mean charges dropped do to a "technicality"?
Like a bad search, improper conduct of the cop or prosecutor, improper handling of the chain of evidence, confession beat out of someone?
Legal "technicalities" are rights that hundreds of thousands of our soldiers have fought and died for. It's called our legal system and is part and parcel of our American life. Consider that in New Orleans, they have had police officers tried and convicted of ANY CRIME YOU CAN THINK OF. That includes premeditated murder and drug sales. Trumping up phoney charges would be nothing for some folks.
My CCW required me to go to a class, pass a written test, a shooting test and submit fngerprints. The renewal required a shortened version of the class, another written/shooting test and another set of prints - as if they could somehow change. ::)
I could shoot any handgun I wanted and I bet most of the folks on this board could pass the firing portion stinking drunk, using their off hand, with a patch over their dominant eye.
I have no problem with those requirements and since my last renewal the process has gotten easier.
Now you don't even need a permit to carry concealed.
There are no more shootings than before, blood does not run down the streets and the sky is still up where it should be.
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Godd points the both of you. Shall issue means shall issue. Again, same as a DL. Everyone is entitled unless the state can prove otherwise. The burden of proof is on them. I'm not saying that there aren't cases where the answer shouldn't be "no", just that they should be required to show cause. As long as you meet uniform and non-onerous standards, you should be good to go.
FQ13
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This thread shows just how far the Nanny state indoctrination has progressed.
On a pro gun, pro civil rights Forum people are actually saying it is alright to deprive a citizen of , to quote the appropriate document "God given" rights.
Until the passage , under the socialist FDR , of the NFA, once a convicted felon had done his time his civil rights were restored with the possible exception of holding certain offices that was clearly stipulated in the Constitution.
Doesn't the Bible say something about "What God has brought together let no man tear apart" ?
When Frank James was released from prison for various charges stemming from his bank and train robbing career his guns were returned to him by the Warden .
The 2A say's "Shall not be infringed", No exception's, no stipulation of good conduct.
Even if there were no other grounds for argument than the fact that such restrictions will not prevent a criminal from getting what ever he (or she )wants , what seemed like a good idea in the 30's, no guns for felons, sets a bad precedent that has been abused by the Lautenberg amendment which now strips that civil right from citizens for the misdemeanor of spousal abuse, which can in fact derive simply from calling the spouse bad names.
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Correct, Tom.
There is a flaw in logic here.
If the Sheriff feels the person is law abiding enough to follow the concealed carry restriction, how much of a "bad guy" is he?
Perhaps the Sheriff knows the guy is clumsy and has cut himself several times using his pocket knife and decided to protect the poor guy from shooting himself?
Like we've often said about gun laws, only the honest folks follow them, and that includes CC laws, and if you are an honest person, there should be no restrictions on your possession, concealed or otherwise.