The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: tt11758 on November 16, 2010, 01:24:57 PM
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20101116/us-iowa-store-slayings/ (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20101116/us-iowa-store-slayings/)
Minn. teen charged with killing Iowa store clerks
November 16, 2010 02:13 PM EST | AP
ALGONA, Iowa — Authorities have charged a Minnesota teenager with murdering two convenience store clerks at separate stores in northern Iowa.
The Kossuth County attorney's office says 17-year-old Michael Richard Swanson, of St. Louis Park, Minn., was charged Tuesday as an adult with two counts each of first-degree murder and first-degree robbery in separate slayings at stores in Kossuth and Humboldt counties.
Authorities say Swanson fatally shot 47-year-old Vicky Bowman-Hall at the Crossroads gas station in Algona at about 9 p.m. Monday. They say he shot and killed 61-year-old Sheila Myers about an hour later at the Kum and Go store in Humboldt.
Swanson was arrested at a McDonald's shortly before midnight Monday. He is being held at Kossuth County jail in Algona.
These incidents did not occur in crime-ridden, inner-city neighborhoods. These two communities (about 2 hours from here) are each about 5,000 population. The closes either town has to a bad neighborhood is one or two houses that could use a coat of paint. If Mayberry existed anywhere, it would be there.
It's a sad day when hard-working, innocent women have to be afraid to do their jobs. Pity there wasn't a legally armed citizen in the first store.
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What is St Louis Park like?
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We just had a similar case here. 3 teenagers broke into a house simply to kill who ever they found there.
F#cked up people are not a new thing,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrill_killing
May 21, 1924: University students Nathan Leopold and Richard Loeb murder 14-year-old Bobby Franks. Leopold, age 19 at the time of the murder, and Loeb, 18, believed themselves to be Nietzschean übermenschen who could commit a "perfect crime" (in this case a kidnapping and murder). Both were sentenced to life imprisonment plus 99 years; Loeb died in prison at the age of 30, while Leopold was paroled in 1958 after serving 33 years in prison.[1]
Exit question, What is / was wrong with executing these people ?
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We just had a similar case here. 3 teenagers broke into a house simply to kill who ever they found there.
F#cked up people are not a new thing,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrill_killing
May 21, 1924: University students Nathan Leopold and Richard Loeb murder 14-year-old Bobby Franks. Leopold, age 19 at the time of the murder, and Loeb, 18, believed themselves to be Nietzschean übermenschen who could commit a "perfect crime" (in this case a kidnapping and murder). Both were sentenced to life imprisonment plus 99 years; Loeb died in prison at the age of 30, while Leopold was paroled in 1958 after serving 33 years in prison.[1]
Exit question, What is / was wrong with executing these people ?
Absolutely nothing. People just don't have the stomach to do what needs to be done anymore.
Funny how it happened a lot less, earlier in history, when we simply exterminated them. Now we have to diagnose them with something so that some liberal attorney can get them off on an insanity plea. ::)
When did we as a society lose our testicles?
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I just read this in the Star Tribune and was going to post when I saw tt's title - figured it could be the same. Damn, it is proven that we are starting to think a like :'(
The stories are not clear other than saying that the first clerk complied and then was shot, but were the clerks allowed to protect themselves? Under Iowa's current law and with the mindset of corporate America, I doubt it :'(
Haz - St. Louis Park (SLP) is part of the Minneapolis/St. Paul Twin Cities metro area. It has typically been a middle class working family area made up more of low level white collar and blue collar families. When I was in second and third grade we lived in St. Louis Park, and it hasn't changed much over the last 45 years.
St. Louis Park is located in the middle of a horseshoe shaped affluent class around it, and the beginnings of the more violent North Minneapolis to the north. In the local media we hear about the troubles of the rich from Edina to the south and Minnetonka (Tonka toys) to the west, and the beginnings of violence to the north, but not much out of SLP it self. Geographically it is located in the southwest quadrant of the 494/694 loop around the Twin Cities. WatchmanUSA can maybe shed more light, because he works closer to that area. Our corporate offices are about eight miles north of SLP and on the northern edge, by blocks, of the death zone.
There is a reason that I carry, study self defense, stay observant, and hone my skills through study and teaching!
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I just read this in the Star Tribune and was going to post when I saw tt's title - figured it could be the same. Damn, it is proven that we are starting to think a like :'(
You say that like it's a BAD thing. ;D
The stories are not clear other than saying that the first clerk complied and then was shot, but were the clerks allowed to protect themselves? Under Iowa's current law and with the mindset of corporate America, I doubt it :'(
My assumption is that these two ladies, like most every other convenience store clerk in the country, had probably been told to just give up the money. Hell, even wish the robber a nice day. And I would doubt that either was armed.
There is a reason that I carry, study self defense, stay observant, and hone my skills through study and teaching!
Amen, brother.
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You say that like it's a BAD thing. ;D
My assumption is that these two ladies, like most every other convenience store clerk in the country, had probably been told to just give up the money. Hell, even wish the robber a nice day. And I would doubt that either was armed.
Amen, brother.
lets just say they were armed, had guns all over the place, on thier person, under the counter etc etc. Trying to out draw a gun pointed at you head is a losing deal all around.
Ever been robbed at gun point? I have, twice, I was armed one of those times. Drawing my weapon, would at best ended up with me killing them at worst I'd be dead.
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I asked the same question years ago when this area had an incident where two elderly store owners were beaten to death with a bat during a robbery after offering the money without hesitation.
Arm yourselves.
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lets just say they were armed, had guns all over the place, on thier person, under the counter etc etc. Trying to out draw a gun pointed at you head is a losing deal all around.
Ever been robbed at gun point? I have, twice, I was armed one of those times. Drawing my weapon, would at best ended up with me killing them at worst I'd be dead.
In this instance, I don't disagree with what you were saying. I was merely addressing a question that had been posted in an earlier response.
Without question, the best course of action is to give them the damn money!! NO amount of money is worth dying for. ESPECIALLY somebody ELSE'S money!!!
The entire thing is a tragedy. And it only serves to piss me off further that Iowa is NOT a capital punishment state. Oh well, I'm sure this 17 year old will be VERY popular once he gets to prison.
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I asked the same question years ago when this area had an incident where two elderly store owners were beaten to death with a bat during a robbery after offering the money without hesitation.
Arm yourselves.
The sad fact is that not all wild, predatory animals walk on 4 legs.
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lets just say they were armed, had guns all over the place, on thier person, under the counter etc etc. Trying to out draw a gun pointed at you head is a losing deal all around.
Ever been robbed at gun point? I have, twice, I was armed one of those times. Drawing my weapon, would at best ended up with me killing them at worst I'd be dead.
You say that like it is a bad thing, these thugs need to learn that they are not the only ones who can use violence to achieve their objective.
Good people need to be just as willing to use whatever force is needed to get home safely as the scum are willing to use to prevent that.
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You say that like it is a bad thing, these thugs need to learn that they are not the only ones who can use violence to achieve their objective.
Good people need to be just as willing to use whatever force is needed to get home safely as the scum are willing to use to prevent that.
The individual charged with these crimes was, reportedly, "arrested without incident" at a McDonalds several miles down the road from the 2nd crime scene. Typically, it would seem, "arrested without incident" translates to, "not nearly as bad-ass when he's not the only one with a gun."
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Tom trying to out draw a trigger finger is like throwing a forward pass in foot ball.
there are 3 things that can happen, 2 of them are bad.
1 I walk away
2 they walk away
3 niether of us walk away.
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http://www.globegazette.com/news/local/044ff506-f14c-11df-ae80-001cc4c002e0.html (http://www.globegazette.com/news/local/044ff506-f14c-11df-ae80-001cc4c002e0.html)
Photo of smiling accused dirtbag at link. SOB shot the first clerk in the face AFTER she gave him the money and smokes.
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TAB - This kid came in dressed for trouble. Had there been a gun under the counter they would not of needed to draw. Just point and blast through the counter front and candy bars. Any attempt to defend yourself is better than no attempt. This story reinforces the studies that show you are most likely going to die, so fight back.
Unless I am caught from behind and/or unaware everyone will know I am in trouble. I am not going to go out quietly, and hopefully if I go I will be taking one of them with me. If not, he will at least be leaving a brown smelly trail to his hideout.
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TAB - This kid came in dressed for trouble. Had there been a gun under the counter they would not of needed to draw. Just point and blast through the counter front and candy bars. Any attempt to defend yourself is better than no attempt. This story reinforces the studies that show you are most likely going to die, so fight back.
Unless I am caught from behind and/or unaware everyone will know I am in trouble. I am not going to go out quietly, and hopefully if I go I will be taking one of them with me. If not, he will at least be leaving a brown smelly trail to his hideout.
I'm with m58 on this one. The a-hole came through the door wearing a ski mask. NOT normal attire on a 40 degree evening in Iowa.
I am not going to go out quietly, and hopefully if I go I will be taking one of them with me.
I'll go one further. In the course of such an interaction I MIGHT get killed with my own weapon. I can assure you, however, that the SOB will have to use it to beat me to death, cuz it'll be empty by the time he gets ahold of it.
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Tom trying to out draw a trigger finger is like throwing a forward pass in foot ball.
there are 3 things that can happen, 2 of them are bad.
1 I walk away
2 they walk away
3 niether of us walk away.
TAB, You have valid points here that would reduce it to an argument over tactics that belong in other threads.
So I'll just leave it at, drawing against the "drop" is doable, but probably not by an untrained 50ish woman store clerk.
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http://blogs.desmoinesregister.com/dmr/index.php/2010/11/16/2-convenience-store-clerks-dead-in-iowa-shootings-2/ (http://blogs.desmoinesregister.com/dmr/index.php/2010/11/16/2-convenience-store-clerks-dead-in-iowa-shootings-2/)
Algona, Ia. — The teen accused of shooting and killing two convenience store clerks was arraigned this afternoon.
Michael Richard Swanson, 17, smiled as he walked across the street from the county jail to the courthouse in a black and white striped prison uniform, handcuffs and leg shackles.
The judge ordered a $1 million, cash-only bail. Swanson’s next appearance will be Nov. 29 at 1:30 p.m. He was appointed a public defender from Fort Dodge.
When a reporter asked why he came to Iowa, Swanson shook his head as he laughed and smiled.
“I don’t know,” he said.
Another reporter asked, “What’s so funny, you’re smiling?”
“Y’all are funny,” Swanson responded.
Swanson is accused of shooting to death two convenience store clerks in separate robberies in northern Iowa Monday night.
Swanson told police he shot the women intentionally so that they could not call police or later identify him, according to an affidavit filed in Kossuth and Humboldt counties.
This just pisses me off.
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Tom trying to out draw a trigger finger is like throwing a forward pass in foot ball.
there are 3 things that can happen, 2 of them are bad.
1 I walk away
2 they walk away
3 niether of us walk away.
The ladies in these crimes had no gun so they only had a chance on number 2.
Had they been armed, they would have had chances at 1 and 3 also....and if the lady in the first store had gotten anything other than number 2, the Lady in the second store would have gone home to her family that night. Might not have done the first lady any practical good, but it would have saved a life and the anguish of the second ladies family.
Again, TAB, fight, don't bend over and take it.
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Thing is is this. Having a gun for SD is just that. Defense. The attacker has the iniative. Their gun is drawn, your's isn't. Do you give the money, or roll the dice? Its an honest question, and its your life if you guess wrong. Give them what they want and hope thet go away, or draw to a drawn gun? What's "rational" is what your gut tells you. Either way, its 50-50 at best. Only one of you is going home. Its why I sold my Bond and why I don't own a 1911 and love my Glock. No safety, no cocking, point and click. Devil take the hindmost. I have no advice because those clerks should have had the right to make the call. Pisses me off that they didn't, but I can't say it would have changed things if they did. I'm not arguing, just wondering. Thoughts?
FQ13
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My comment of a gun under the counter is not fictitious. It is very common in stores that plan to protect. Defense is possible. I can get you a first hand account of a bat to a robber that ended an episode. However, there are also many other accounts of similar cases with varying weapons that have ended in varying ways.
Bottom line is that most of these situations end with violence. Everyone needs to decide how they want to bet, but I'd hate to fold myself.
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My comment of a gun under the counter is not fictitious. It is very common in stores that plan to protect. Defense is possible. I can get you a first hand account of a bat to a robber that ended an episode. However, there are also many other accounts of similar cases with varying weapons that have ended in varying ways.
Bottom line is that most of these situations end with violence. Everyone needs to decide how they want to bet, but I'd hate to fold myself.
Well said. I'll roll the dce if its my lfe. The bosses' isurance company's money? The boss loses. Sad thing is, too many robbers don't get that fine, but crucial distinction and just shoot folks. They just shoot. Way I figure it, it would have been a shame to spend $550 on a Glock and not get it dirty if I'm dead anyway. :-\
FQ13 who ain't dyin' for the money, just to save his own ass and those around him.
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Thing is, you don't know until the BG is gone, will he just take the money, or like this POS decide to "leave no witnesses".
That happens to often to take the chance when you have the advantage of surprise.
These thugs think showing a gun gives them the ultimate power, the absolute last thing they expect is for you to pull your own and shoot them.
With some of the whack jobs on the streets today, are you willing to bet your life they will just take the money and leave ?
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And therein lies the rub. If its just the money? Take it. If I think I'm going to die because you listened to one too many rap songs? Well, we'll flip for it. And damned if I have a right answer.
FQ13
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No shrug zone
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The brazen teen was well known by police in his hometown for causing trouble. His criminal record, stretching back to when he was 13, is peppered with thefts, weapons allegations and assaults. But nothing in it would seem to foreshadow Monday's cold-blooded crimes.
http://www.startribune.com/local/west/108652399.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUvckD8EQDUX (http://www.startribune.com/local/west/108652399.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUvckD8EQDUX)
Four year history of thefts and assaults (that is violent I believe) and allegations of weapons (not sure what that means), and there was no reason to think this clown would go whacko at some point ???
And the gun control whack jobs wonder why we scream "enforce the laws you already have!"
Final paragraphs from the news story:
Following his conviction, a July order for placement recommended that Swanson serve detention away from home. The explanation was in a series of statements marked by checked boxes:
"Prior programming treatment and consequences in the home failed to return the child to law-abiding behavior," said one entry.
"There are no services available at this time that would allow the child to safely remain at home," said another.
This box also was checked:
"The child's behavior places him/her and others at risk for harm."
Insert Homer Simpson quote here >:(
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And therein lies the rub. If its just the money? Take it. If I think I'm going to die because you listened to one too many rap songs? Well, we'll flip for it. And damned if I have a right answer.
FQ13
FQ - Did you just get whiplash spinning your head around trying to figure out what that noise was? In case you missed it, that sound was my point flying past way over your head!
It ain't about the money or property. It is about these jerks are most likely going to do harm to my person. I don't know how I will react in each and every situation, but I hope I am never found dead without trying to defend myself. I will surely attempt to hand over the cash, but what I deliver next and how is to be determined by the situation and my personal reaction to it.
My hopes, which you seem to have missed, is that I will "subdue" the A**hole! Idea being that I don't plan for him to walk out unscathed while I lie in a pool of blood.
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Didn't think we were having an an argument. I was kind of trying to agree with you in my post. Just stating my own thoughts along the way. Where guys like us get into trouble with guys like them is that we are rational people. We know that no amount of money we may be holding is worth dying over. We'll give it up. Its just stuff. Stuff can be replaced. Problem is that they don't seem to get that by killing over it, they're throwing their own lives away as well. They're going to get caught eventually, and when they're looking at 25 to life, how many times more than what they stole would they pay to get out of prison? They just don't see that though. Force is where the rational deal with the irrational. Its just harder for us because we can see the consequences.
FQ13
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This relates to why we lost Vietnam, and why we will lose in Afghanistan. Western society is not prepared to beat a foe worse than what that foe is prepared to with stand. We lack the will to be the Romans at Masada, and if needed, kill every living thing that shows the least resistance. The thugs, and primitives however are quite willing, some even eager to play the role of the Jews and die to the last soul.
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I'm in M58's camp. Once a weapon (any weapon) comes into play you are in a life or death situation. I refuse to leave the decision do I live or die solely to the discretion of the scumbag with the weapon. My personal default options are when if possible distract and escape. If that isn't possible then distract, attack and then if possible escape. Only had to do this once in my life against a jerk with a knife when I was in my early 20’s and didn’t really know anything and I left him on the ground holding what I hope was a broken ankle as I ran away. Since then I have made it a point to be aware of what is going on around me so that I have a chance to avoid or react before I’m in such a situation. If I can’t avoid it then I’ll chose to “go not gently”.