The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: Swamp Yankee on February 19, 2008, 04:59:51 PM
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I am currently researching my next purchase of a tactical type of Semi Auto. I am not a big fan of the AR platform. I am currently impressed by the Kel - Tek SU-16B due to its features. But not sure about its accuracy both long and short range. Is this gun able to handle the new heavier 5.56 and 223 loads that are currently available ? If you have any other suggestions or input it will be greatly appreciated
Mike Mc
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Good question. I was considering the 16C folder as it looks light enough to pack when working in the woods. Seems like there aren't many Kel-Tec owners, other than pocket pistols, here, but I too would appreciate any owner's opinions. AND, Hillary hates'em! Another plus. Mac.
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Do you want to stay with the 5.56/.223 round or would you consider an alternative?
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I would concider an alternative type of round as long as it performs well.
Mike Mc
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545x39 round 1080 for 139.00 very affordable in a AK variation called Polish "tantel" rifle is under 500.00 ,cant beat the operating system IMO seems to be very close in ballistics to 5.56, altho nothing like a .308 or 762x39 obviously. I have been checking these and they look good. They are wire side folders, can be seen on classicarms.us
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The Tantel's are great rifles IF you can find one the grinder-monkeys at CIA haven't jacked up. Personally I would go to Atlantic arms and get the non-CIA versions they sell. I concur that the 5.45x39mm is a viable alternative to the 5.56mm, neither is a great round for animals (except varmints) and neither will give you the heavy "stopping power" of a .308, but the 5.45 doesn't depend on high velocity to make it effective like the 5.56 does. I would say that fi you get one you need to stock up on ammo now while it's cheap, with a case going for $120 and up it is about the cheapest "High-tech carbine" round out there, but it won't take much to get the price rising like all the rest. The Bulgarian 5.45mm in sealed tin's is the original ammo design with the air-pocket tip, and while it is corrosive most AK-74's have chromed bores and gas-systems so it's not a big deal. Atlantic arms also has the Bulgarian AK which is also a fine weapon and an RPK (looks Romanian but they don't say) which I would prefer as I like the longer barrel and the flash-hider is better than the muzzle-break (IMHO) the $1000 price-tag is a bit steep however.
If you go this route I suggest you get 10 or more ($200 to $275 depending on type and source) and 5000 rds ($600 to $800 depending), thats under $1600 for the lot if you go with the CIA Tantel, which is about what you will pay for a good AR and 10 mags with no ammo, and 5.56 is running $300 to $500 a case except for wolf and that is well over $200, and that assumes that you can find it as 5.56 is pretty scarce right now.
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Looked up the Tantel and the 5.45 cartridge. Nice looking gun just needs to lose the folder wire stock and replace with an adjustable M4 type stock. I like the bullistics of the load for the 50gr cartridge but I was not able to find any information on the 70gr cartridge. Not too much availability of the 5.45 either of all the Ammunition sights I cheked only three had them. Average cost was around $200 per 1000. I will keep looking to see what I am able to come up with. Thanks for the info.
Mike Mc
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hello Swamp Yankee, let me start by saying i am far from tactical :-[ , but would like to fix that soon. FN's 5.7 carbine is really cool. I had a ball shooting it and couldnt believe the accuracy using a C-More on top. There is probably better tatically speaking but its an option that I liked man.
Hope I didnt waste your time man
Tex
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The 5.7mm is a waste of time as you cannot get the good military ammunition and the civilian stuff is not as good as the 5.56 or 5.45 stuff.
As for the folder on the Tantel, I'm not a big fan either but they do have fixed stocks and TAPCO sells M-4 style stock if that is your thing. The folder is pretty sturdy though, a friend of mine has the same kind on his WASR.
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If you're looking into an AK system. I would start with Arsenal Incorporated. They make outstanding AK's. An AK-103 in 7.62x39 with some CorBon ammo would make a very potent and reliable weapon.
7.62 ammo is still reasonably priced compared to 5.56 and magazines and other components are plentiful and relatively inexpensive.
Now comes my word of CAUTION!! Pay attention.
If you deploy an AK in any situation, you will be presumed to be the bad guy! Be prepared for that and recognize that fact that the guy with the AK will get shot first when the cops respond, regardless of how "in the right" you were. There will be a lot of hair triggers pointed at you, so be careful and prepare for the assumption that you are the bad guy.
Second, the AK was designed over 50 years ago. Ergonomics were not a concern. Most of the controls are not in convenient locations. Dedicate plenty of training time to intuitively learn the AK. It's not an easy thing to do compared to an AR, but it can be done if you put in the time.
If you do these two things, the AK will serve you well.
Erik
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USSA-1, Well said! Especially about being pinned as the BG just for having it at the scene. I use mine for practice out in BFE in South Colorado. Other than that it's in my gun safe.
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I believe that I quote Jeff Cooper in stating "the AK is a rifle for the masses while the FAL is a weapon for the classes." If you don't want an AR platform, check out the DSA FAL, particularly the Hampton model w/ an AR15A2 sight mounted into the lower receiver. You would also want the extreme duty scope mount so you can easily mount an optic. .308 is expensive to shoot but at least magazines are cheap and plentiful and you can get functional 30 rounders. Another good .308 would be a Springfield Armory M1A scout although they are harder to scope.
FYI I am sponsored by DSA so I'm biased but check out the FAL
You'd don't mention your issue with the AR but perhaps a piston driven AR upper would solve it. There are several good ones out there. I've got a POF 16 inch upper that has got to be the most reliable semiauto (rifle, pistol or shotgun) that I've ever shot.
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Kelly Thanks for the reply. Main reason for not liking the AR is I am a lefty after 10 rounds I can't see. Yes I know they make LH models now. But after 25 yrs of shooting I am used to and am more familiar with the right hand design. Also do not like the gas system as they must be kept immaculately clean to function properly. I do like the Springfields but I can not buy one as I am going to inherit a Socom from one of my good friends. I love the 308 cartridge it is the best all around cartridge on the market. I also like the 7.62 x 39 just not as accurate as I would prefer but it gets the job done. I know with the current offerings in 223 you have more flexibility as far as bullet weight for different shooting situations but you have to adjust for each one. I definately want the option of fixed adjustable sights and optics mount. I will take a look at the DSA/FAL
Mike Mc
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Like I said, not a lot of Kel-Tec fans here. Mac.
PS. bought the folder C model. Fired about 200 rounds through it. Ate up a playing card at 25 yds with factory sites. No problems with FMJ, 5.56 ammo. Hard to clean the chamber area. Very light carry. Hillary said I was on her hit list. I'm cool with that. Mac.
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I am getting that kind of feeling DDMack. No Kel-Tek love here :'(. It is still on my short list I realy don't want an AK and I already have an SKS I have found some better info on the Kel-Tek Forum sight and most are pleased. A little info on the SU16c The bolt handle with the built on case deflector is known to cause stove pipes and they recommend putting the standard bolt handle on to cure it.
Mike MC
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My experience with the AR platform is not that it has to be kept clean, it just has to be kept lubed. I'm not big on cleaning guns (unless they're "duty or carry" guns) and my most of my ARs go for thousands of rounds between cleaning but they always work as they're lubed. But take a look at the FAL, I really enjoy shooting them.
Could you describe your problem with shooting an AR lefty. What do you mean that you can't see?
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My problem is that the Kel-Tek SU-16 is a toy. Like the Mini-14 it is a weapon for weekend plinkers and Range-Rambos not for the down and the dirty. I want a weapon that will stand up to real use, not a cheap noisemaker, that is why I won't own an AR. The AK, FN, H&K/CETME/PTR, M-1, M-1A these are all real weapons designed to work under field conditions. The SIG 556, FN F2000 and the FN SCAR-L (as much as I dislike the round they fire) are built to be used in the field, even the Romanian PSl and the Yugo M76 are able to handle harsh conditions. The AR-15's, SU-16, AR-180B and the Mini-14's simply are not up to the task if you plan to use them for serious social work.
If you plan to punch paper and plink soda-cans then it doesn't matter what you use, but if you expect to get a life-saving tool you need to get the best one you can.
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While I agree with your philosophy, Warhawke, the little folder fulfills a particular need for my work. No chance I'll need to butt stroke anybody with it. I do, however, have two on your approved list, when I need to venture off the farm. When you're right, you're right! Thanks, Mac.
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If you check the specs on the SU-16, the twist is 1/9 for a 16" barrel. You **might** be able to shoot the 75gr Hornady bullets ok. Most likely you will be shooting under than weight, so 50gr to 69gr bullets will be the norm. That should answer part of your original question.
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As far as not being able to see the gas port blows into my eye with the AR right hand model. I know it is reversed on the lefties. Parts for the lefties could be a problem in a crisis situation what kind of availabillity is there. Point taken on the lube but in a field situation no time to do it in a crisis, it must go bang every time. My number one choise would be a true M-14 but The local sherif will not issue the Class III. I know AK's are great but like the AR it is a me too gun one for the masses. But it is readily available in multiple chamberings with plenty of Ammo available. I want something different that is light ,versatile and reliable and easy to maintain. As far as Range Rambo's and plinkers most all of them have AR's decked out with all kinds of worthless junk. I am still looking at the FAL and others and researching them . But I have to ask my self do I want a backup type of light weight carbine ? Or a rock steady no holds barred tactical field proven piece. I see the practicality of the SU-16 design wise,simple operating system, folding stock, extra mag storage on board, heat shield doubles as a bipod and 1913 rail. I like all of the advise I am getting this is the kind of information I am looking fo.r Keep it coming both Pro's and Con's. The greatest life saving tool is your brain use it to make educated and reasonable decisions
Mike Mc
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My number one choise would be a true M-14 but The local sherif will not issue the Class III.
Why not get a full length M1A, even if you are going to "inherit" a SOCOM . Some of these guys on here have 5 or 6 or more of their favorite type firearm. or check out the Marlin Camp carbines in 9mm or .45 I think they are out of production but there are still lots of them around used, and they LOOK alot like the old Riesing SMG that was issued to Marines for Guadalcanal. I'm not sure if you can get Hi-Cap mags for them though. f course thereis the Auto Ordanance Thompson as well. You DID say you wanted something out of the ordinary :D
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Good question. I was considering the 16C folder as it looks light enough to pack when working in the woods. Seems like there aren't many Kel-Tec owners, other than pocket pistols, here, but I too would appreciate any owner's opinions. AND, Hillary hates'em! Another plus. Mac.
I own a kel-tec sub 2000 and love it. It is chambered in 9mm and uses glock mags. I have had it for two years now and it has performed well. At the time I wanted a 9mm rifle to go along with my 9mm Beretta PX4. I did a lot of research and was going to by a Ruger 9mm carbine but the cost was twice that of a Kel-tec sub. I ended up buying the the sub 2000 and I am glad I did. It is very accurate and easy to get on target. I like the Glock version because you can get 33 round factory magazines for between 30 and 40 dollars.
As far as the 16c, I have not shot one but when I was range officer at my gun club one afternoon, I witnessed someone shooting his 16c for the first time. He did not look like he was having much fun and kept complaining that it was uncomfortable. For a few hundred more, i think an Ar-15 would be a better bet for a 223, but, that is just my opinion. I bought my sub 2000 for $318 dollars and I have gotten more than my moneys worth out of it already. It is simple to use and can be folded down into a briefcase. also, you can put a surefire on it or another type of tactical light and still fold it down.
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how about some links?
tex