The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: cookie62 on November 19, 2010, 09:43:09 PM
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I've been looking at a Kimber pro carry. But I'm not sure about how well the aluminum frame will hold up. They also have a model with a stainless frame. Just wanted your thought on the aluminum frame. How well do they hold up over time. I like to shoot my guns, Don't want to have to worry about the round count. I'm not a big fan of stainless guns, I like mine black not shiny.
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I've been looking at a Kimber pro carry. But I'm not sure about how well the aluminum frame will hold up. They also have a model with a stainless frame. Just wanted your thought on the aluminum frame. How well do they hold up over time. I like to shoot my guns, Don't want to have to worry about the round count. I'm not a big fan of stainless guns, I like mine black not shiny.
I'm looking forward to this thread. I've been interested in ultra light revolvers. I'd love to hear how aluminium works in a semi.
FQ13
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I have an aluminum Para Ordnance frame with lots of rounds through it. The whole gun rattles like a maraca but it still works. I don't know how loose a steel framed gun would be with the same round count, but my guess is that aluminum wears faster. I always heard that the alloy frame guns are better if you carry a lot and shoot a little.
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I've been looking at a Kimber pro carry. But I'm not sure about how well the aluminum frame will hold up. They also have a model with a stainless frame. Just wanted your thought on the aluminum frame. How well do they hold up over time. I like to shoot my guns, Don't want to have to worry about the round count. I'm not a big fan of stainless guns, I like mine black not shiny.
I had a stainless Pro Carry and the alloy didn't wear hardly at all. When I clean and lube a gun I tend to watch for worn spots and make sure those get a proper lube job. On the Pro Carry I found wear spots on the stainless slide but not on the alloy frame. This after a couple thousand rounds. If you want a Pro Carry don't worry about wear to the frame.
Pecos
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My dad's Ultra Carry has the aluminum frame, and it's 11 years old, with God knows how may rounds through it and there's Nothing wrong with the frame. It's a KIMBER! Go for it!
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I too have a Commander framed Para LTC with the aluminum alloy frame. It's holding up really well after several years and 2-3K rounds. I use Slide Glide which, according to them, helps reduce wear on the mating surfaces.
No complaints here!
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On one hand Aluminum can not possibly hold up like steel, the metallurgy just doesn't work.
On the other hand, I have never heard of a fire arm failing purely because the frame was Aluminum alloy.
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On one hand Aluminum can not possibly hold up like steel, the metallurgy just doesn't work.
On the other hand, I have never heard of a fire arm failing purely because the frame was Aluminum alloy.
Plus it's a Kimber, they wouldn't stake their high end reputation on something that will fail, or wear out, from "normal" usage. Unless you plan on 20,000rds. a year. ???
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Plus it's a Kimber, they wouldn't stake their high end reputation on something that will fail, or wear out, from "normal" usage. Unless you plan on 20,000rds. a year. ???
Heck, Glocks are plastic and they hold up fine.
Leads to the thought that perhaps using steel is excessive.
No, I'm not going to be selling my 1911 ;D
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I have a Kimber Pro Carry II in 9mm that I use as my daily carry and have about 1500+ rounds thru it and I have not noticed any wear except the blueing on the thumb saftey is comming off from my fat sides rubbing it. Still tight and no rattles what so ever. Have had it for about 2 years now. Also far more accurate than I am at the range! Hope this helps.
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I have a LW Colt Officers ACP that I carry a lot and shoot in IDPA quite often with full power loads and it has held up well.
FWIW
Richard
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Just saw FQ's post and needed to point out to him that they have been making Semi autos wqith aluminum frames since at least the mid 1940's when Walther changed the steel P-38 frame to the aluminum one of the P-1
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I have one of the real early Pro-Carry's that I've probably put 3500 rds. through and its as tight as the day I bought it. I had to send it back to Kimber very early in it's life to correct some jamming issues, seems the barrel ink was drilled crooked but once they sent it back it's been a lights out shooter. I have put mostly white box or equivalent 230gr ball through it. I've heard lots of talk about not putting too much +p or +p+ stuff through aluminum frame 45's but really who can afford to shoot that at the range anyway. I've put at least a few boxes of hotter stuff through, enough to know it will function with it. I would not hesitate to buy another aluminum frame 1911 and actually would like to get a full sized at some point.
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Just ran across this quote that seemed to fit here:
"I have a 3 digit Commander that I have used fairly extensively since the firearm was first released. During one competition year I used it exclusively, and this involved the firing in practice of about 500 rounds a month. It shows no signs of excessive wear. It is my belief that the aluminum Commander will stand up very well to any responsible amount of use. Naturally, any firearm will wear out in time."
Jeff Cooper, August 1976
Quoted from Guns and Ammo Nov. 2010 pg 30
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Thanks for the advice. I decided on a Kimber compact stainless with alluminum frame. Had to buy off gunbroker, no one around here had one in stock. One dealer told me he could order it, but it would be 3 to 4 months. Should be here by the end of the week. I'll post pics soon. A range report will follow depending on the weather. Winter sucks! :-\
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I have a Kimber Compact Aluminum Stainless with close to 2000 rounds through it. At about a 1000 rds , The trigger got gritty and would not return smoothly. A gunsmith cleaned the internals and it is great now . No problems with the feed ramp. These guns make the best carry guns , especially in a Galco N3 holster.
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On one hand Aluminum can not possibly hold up like steel, the metallurgy just doesn't work.
On the other hand, I have never heard of a fire arm failing purely because the frame was Aluminum alloy.
Actually I am not sure this is true. The key issue for wear is surface hardness and the surface treatments for both Al and St had become very high tech. Not my area of engineering anymore, but I would not be afraid of an Al gun if it fit my needs. WRT flexing, I would expect that to be a function of the quality of the gun design, so "Its a Kimber" is a fair point. I love my (steel) Kimber and am trying to come up with an excuse to buy another...
Joe
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Actually I am not sure this is true. The key issue for wear is surface hardness and the surface treatments for both Al and St had become very high tech. Not my area of engineering anymore, but I would not be afraid of an Al gun if it fit my needs. WRT flexing, I would expect that to be a function of the quality of the gun design, so "Its a Kimber" is a fair point. I love my (steel) Kimber and am trying to come up with an excuse to buy another...
Joe
I know what you mean, they are developing new treatments and alloys every day it seems like . I will stick by what I posted for this reason though, one the surface treatment has been penetrated, whether it's through wear on the finish or from getting dinged some how, you have plain old relatively soft aluminum, up till that point though I will concede that you have a good point.
Timothy can probably set us both straight as I think he is still working in that area.
I'm working strictly with stainless tubing at the moment, but that may be changing soon ;D
As for an excuse for a new Kimber, an Al. pistol is easier for carry if you are able (I see you are in Ca. ) and your side by side comparison would be a great intellectual benefit to the shooting community at large. ;D
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Sorry Tom, surface treatments are not my area either.
As a side note, the 7010-T6 alloys used are very high tensile strength and undergo an extensive heat treatment and quenching prior to machining the frame to remove any stresses, yada, yada, yada.... S&W patented the addition of a small amount of scandium into their alloys which helps somewhat, I'm sure but again, I'm no expert. Scandium is not a readily available element, it's pretty rare as it's only mined in Russia and China in limited quantities.
I would guess that the older Colt Commander frames were machined and lapped by highly skilled gun smiths and would definitely extend their usable life. Who knows how long my Para will last or any number of other frames out there but I would guess you would have to shoot the shit out of one before it let loose as a result of fatigue.
Drop the frame when you're cleaning it and it might break. I'm always careful with mine as the dust cover just looks too thin...
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Just for giggles, here is some good info for the metallurgically curious, as it pertains to aluminum.
http://www.esabna.com/us/en/education/knowledge/qa/-Understanding-the-Aluminum-Alloy-Designation-System.cfm
The division I worked for extruded the 6000 series (magnesium & silicon alloy). We heat treated our primary alloy of 6063-T6 at 350 degrees for 6-8 hours. A lot of folks don't know it, but aluminum will age on its own to the same rough hardness over time...but due to time constraints in the industry, it is aged artificially.
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Thanks Peg...interesting stuff.
My experience is mostly 3000, 5000 and 6000 series aluminum for their fabrication properties in sheets. I've cut a lot of 6061 over the years but it's not something that can be traditionally formed without fracture. Alloy 5052 is better suited to forming and cold working.
We worked a bit with 1100 at my last job and that stuff is so soft it need stress relief after every welding operation.
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Thanks Peg...interesting stuff.
My experience is mostly 3000, 5000 and 6000 series aluminum for their fabrication properties in sheets. I've cut a lot of 6061 over the years but it's not something that can be traditionally formed without fracture. Alloy 5052 is better suited to forming and cold working.
We worked a bit with 1100 at my last job and that stuff is so soft it need stress relief after every welding operation.
The secret to bending the 6000 series stuff after heat treating is to reheat it to around 600 degrees before working it. Even after it cools down, it is still pretty malleable until it starts to age again.
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The secret to bending the 6000 series stuff after heat treating is to reheat it to around 600 degrees before working it. Even after it cools down, it is still pretty malleable until it starts to age again.
True but my customers didn't want to pay for it.... ;D
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My experience with Al. depends on what I was doing, in "machine shops" it's all pretty standard 6061 T6, in "sheet metal shops it was usually 5052, but one time they office screwed up and got 6061, it was interesting, you could watch the cracks forming as the bend angle increased ;D since it didn't quite break (By a gnats hair ) they formed it cold, then ran a bead of weld down the break line.
Funny thing, we got a new person to take care of ordering material not long after that. ;D
Peg,
Lexan is like that as well, form it cold it snaps, heat it and form it slow with overbend and when it cools you're OK.
One of our more educational thread drifts ;D
Funny part is that folks who don't work in our fields may find it fascinating . If they try to read up on it there's all kinds of technical terms that make it sound like witch craft, same as other industries.
I was watching "How it's made" one time with friends who did other things, the episode was on Weber grills, they were saying, "Oh, that's neat" Who came up with such tricky machinery" and so on.
I was thinking, "Wow, they use that antiquated stuff, That machine belongs in a museum !" ;D
I kept it to myself but they were looking at me odd for laughing ;D
You guys and Joe know what I mean ;D
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My experience with Al. depends on what I was doing, in "machine shops" it's all pretty standard 6061 T6, in "sheet metal shops it was usually 5052, but one time they office screwed up and got 6061, it was interesting, you could watch the cracks forming as the bend angle increased ;D since it didn't quite break (By a gnats hair ) they formed it cold, then ran a bead of weld down the break line.
Funny thing, we got a new person to take care of ordering material not long after that. ;D
Peg,
Lexan is like that as well, form it cold it snaps, heat it and form it slow with overbend and when it cools you're OK.
One of our more educational thread drifts ;D
lexan is polycarb, it des not tend to snap. now acrylic does snap( and it leaves sharp edges) both require heat to bed.
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It may not "snap", but it lets a heck of a bang under 100 ton break tool when it goes at over 90 degrees bend angle ;D
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We formed some lexan years ago for a sorting hood sight window, we heated it a bit but we formed it into an octagon so no bends exceeded 45 degrees. It worked pretty well for it's intended purpose. Gotta be careful with poly though, catch it on fire and the fumes and gas are quite noxious.
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It may not "snap", but it lets a heck of a bang under 100 ton break tool when it goes at over 90 degrees bend angle ;D
lexan( polycarb) is known for some bounce. what ends up happening when you try to bend it cold is it strechs. which in turn thins it out and heats it up so it can bend. That is if done slowly and with less force the the break strenght of the stock.
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once the surface treatment has been penetrated, whether it's through wear on the finish or from getting dinged some how, you have plain old relatively soft aluminum, ;D
Actually if that happened, I would expect that the "soft spot would wear down to slightly below the surface level and then stop.
I used to work in the chemical industry and it always amazed me how well the metalurgists could tune properties to address a particular corrosion or wear problem. A little pixie dust and cooking and there ya go! Strength and hardness mean different things and are sometimes counter intuitive. I would trust a company's reputation and the service history of the firearm. I think you ar right though: I OWE it to the communuty to do some research on an Al frame Kimber. :)
Joe
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Actually if that happened, I would expect that the "soft spot would wear down to slightly below the surface level and then stop.
I used to work in the chemical industry and it always amazed me how well the metalurgists could tune properties to address a particular corrosion or wear problem. A little pixie dust and cooking and there ya go! Strength and hardness mean different things and are sometimes counter intuitive. I would trust a company's reputation and the service history of the firearm. I think you ar right though: I OWE it to the communuty to do some research on an Al frame Kimber. :)
Joe
Some times hardness decreases strength, I will never buy another knife made by Puma, they take and hold an excellent edge, but they do it by increasing blade hardness which causes the blade to become brittle like glass, I snapped the tip off my last one twisting it to bore a small hole in a piece of soft pine, the slightly softer steel of another brand would not have been phased by this.
You are to be commended on your dedication to public service, we thank you for your sacrifice on our behalf ;D
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I have an aluminum framed Kimber Ultra Carry that has many thousands of rounds through it with zero problems.