The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: MrSteve on February 20, 2008, 08:32:38 AM
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I have always been a SA/DA guy when it comes to pistol, but for some reason I am starting to look at 1911s and I'm sure it goes without saying (um well maybe not) I have been looking hard at Para.
Para has so many features and so many models to look at it seems to be the 1st stop shop for 1911s, no reason to look anywhere else IMO.
I have been looking at Para's LDA, but I am not sure how well I would like that system (haven't seen/felt one in person). One problem I am seeing with the LDA action 1911s, there is only one model I like in 4" (Tac-Four), but has no Tail, I would really would like a tail. But now if we go over to the SA action, wow, many I like...
So my reason for this thread...
How safe is a 1911 (Para) when carried Cocked & Locked?
Thanks for any info you can point my way.
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Col Cooper said it was the only way to carry.
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Yes and he was the "The Man" and he lived a long great life I am sure.
Any thoughts on the LDA? When it comes to the LDA, I "really" like the "PXT LDA High Capacity Limited", but I am not sure about the size for carry, I guess a good holster could fix almost any concealed carry problems.
On SA I am looking at the "PXT Hi-Cap Single-Action Limited", again size... I guess my eyes like big guns, but both having a fiber sight on front might not be a good choice for carry.
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Very safe...you have 3 safeties
Your brain
The manual thumb safety selector
The grip safety
( 4 if ya keep your finger off the trigger....)
Cocked & Locked...the only way to carry a 1911 platform...as John Moses Browning designed it. 8)
My CCW is a Para Ordnance P12-45...which I always carry Condition 1...Mindset: Yellow
And yea...it's a true SA 1911 design ( no LDA trigger )...which I practice pulling from concealment everytime I go to the range
Practice conditions the mind to react without conscious thought...allowing that thought to remain on the threat
Col. Jeff Cooper...Modern Technique...Carry Conditions:
Condition Zero: A round chambered, hammer cocked, safety off
Condition One: A round chambered, hammer cocked, safety on
Condition Two: A round chambered, hammer down
Condition Three: Chamber empty
Condition Four: Chamber empty, no magazine
Mindset Color Code
White - Unaware and unprepared. If attacked in Condition White, the only thing that may save you is the inadequacy or ineptitude of your attacker. When confronted by something nasty, your reaction will probably be "Oh my God! This can't be happening to me."
Yellow - Relaxed alert. No specific threat situation. Your mindset is that "today could be the day I may have to defend myself." You are simply aware that the world is an unfriendly place and that you are prepared to do something, if necessary. You use your eyes and ears, and realize that "I may have to SHOOT today." You don't have to be armed in this state but if you are armed you should be in Condition Yellow. You should always be in Yellow whenever you are in unfamiliar surroundings or among people you don't know. You can remain in Yellow for long periods, as long as you are able to "Watch your six". (In aviation 12 o'clock refers to the direction in front of the aircraft's nose. Six o'clock is the blind spot behind the pilot.) In Yellow, you are "taking in" surrounding information in a relaxed but alert manner, like a continuous 360 degree radar sweep.
Orange - Specific alert. Something is not quite right and has gotten your attention. Your radar has picked up a specific alert. You shift your primary focus to determine if there is a threat (but you do not drop your six). Your mindset shifts to "I may have to shoot HIM today." In Condition Orange, you set a mental trigger: "If that goblin does "x", I will need to stop him." Your pistol usually remains holstered in this state. Staying in Orange can be a bit of a mental strain, but you can stay in it for as long as you need to. If the threat proves to be nothing, you shift back to Condition Yellow.
Red - Condition Red is fight. Your mental trigger has been "tripped" (established back in Condition Orange). You take appropriate action.
The U.S.M.C. also uses "Condition Black" as actively engaged in combat, as do some of his successors, but Cooper always felt this is an unnecessary step and not in keeping with the mindset definitions.
Also note that the Color Code was never meant to be a warning system. Rather, the Color Code was designed to be a mental crutch. It was designed to allow someone to "get over" the resistance that a normal person has in pointing a pistol at the center of someone's chest and pulling the trigger.
Thanks to Wikipedia for not making me type all of this info myself...
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I don't own a LDA but I did dry fire one a few times. They are indeed light. However, I much prefer a traditional single action 1911. Cocked and locked is as safe as the person holding the gun. The grip safety must be depressed and the thumb safety must be flicked off for it to go off. It is safer than a round in the chamber and the hammer on the "safety" notch by a long shot. Full mag, empty chamber is the safest way to carry it, but then you must rack the slide in order to make the gun operational. If you think about it, if you are hunting with a bolt action rifle and you have the chamber loaded and the safety on, it is cocked and locked. Same with a Ruger .22 pistol, a pump shotgun, and a thousand other types of guns. The thing that freaks people out with the 1911 is the visibly cocked hammer. But, it is the same thing as these other guns, you just can't see a cocked hammer!
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Gunnutz13 and gunman42782 thank you for your help...
Gunnutz13... great write no matter how it was put here, thanks so much it helps me allot.
gunman42782... You have hit me right in the head, in a good way. I have had many long guns set just the way you have put it and I have to be honest, I have never thought the long gun was "cocked and locked" while I was walking along in the woods. I "never" had a long gun go off, unless I told it to. Very good point. Hammer cocked, you hit it again, that is/was my thought. Thanks again.
So my next thing to think about is size... 4" or 5" on the waist.
There is another pistol I have been thinking about and I have to say it seems to give allot and that is the new HKs, the HK45 and HK45c. What I understand they are being shipped in V1 and in turn allows the pistol to also be carried cock and locked. Anyone have any thoughts on the HKs?
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I have an Israeli 1911 that I have practiced with and only carry C&Ld when I do have it. One thing to keep in mind is the holster. I usually get holsters with a thumb break and some 1911 holsters are designed to be used with the hammer down and others cocked. The Galco I have had for a while will not snap if the hammer is back while an Aker has a cut out for the safety to be held in place and the strap goes between the hammer and frame. I do have some open topped holsters for it too but since I can't carry legally anyway they are mainly for IDPA.
For size, it's up to you. I like the Commander (4") that I have and really don't see much difference in the for what I do with it but it does hide better than my friends 5" under a loose shirt. I have looked at the 3" models but don't think I would get one.
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Condition 1 "locked and cocked" is the safest way to carry a 1911 with a round in the chamber. Remember you have the hammer safety, and the grip safety to go with all the other safety's such as no finger on the trigger safety and with old style holsters the out of battery safety. More safe than a DAO Glock or the like, they are cocked and locked with no external safety's. Tom Givens, Author and Trainer
As a "fighting" handgun, a properly set up and tuned 1911 has no equal. It has superb ergonomics, redundant safeties, excellent reliability and longevity, and the best trigger action available on any common service pistol. The trigger alone makes it the easiest service pistol to shoot well at speed. My primary handgun every single day, 365 days a year, is a lightly customized 1911.
That said, the 1911 is NOT a gun for the casual user, or what we call NDP's (non-dedicated personnel). The gun was designed when technology was expensive, but skilled labor was not. The exact opposite is true today. A carry 1911 should be gone over by an experienced specialist (Heinie, Burns, Yam, Yost, Garthwaite, etc) and then properly maintained by the end user. The average cop or typical CCW holder would be better served with a Glock or SIG in most cases. If you're willing to spend the money to get a properly set up 1911 and TRAIN with it, then you're not "average".
Last year I took three classes as a student (Taylor, Gonzales, Suarez) and the year before one from Clint Smith. In each of those classes I fired about 800 rounds through my carry 1911 without cleaning it and with zero malfunctions. At the NTI last year, I dropped an impact target with about an eight inch square vital zone at approximately 80 yards, from an awkward position, with one shot from my carry 1911, while being filmed by a TV crew. The superb trigger on my gun made that a lot easier. Since I have a choice in my personal weapons, I choose to carry the system that stacks the odds in my favor. My life is worth the extra expense/effort. YMMV.
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Thanks for the replies... I am pulling in all the info.
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Hey Mr. Steve!
I am also a fan of (Sig 2022) DA/SA. A lot of people poo-poo it (varying trigger pulls, etc.) but my feeling is that the DA at 10-12 pounds is a HELL of a safety. First shot hits and/or has shock value, following shots at 4lb pulll. It's not for everyone, but I like it.
Having said that, I LOVE the trigger on my 1911 and I think you will find the nice triggers intoxicating compared to the Sig Pros. Occasionally at the range I have pulled the trigger and forgotten to release the thumb safety. This is a real concern in a gunfight, obviously. But as others have said here, even if the thumb safety somehow gets pushed off in the holster, the gun should not discharge without depressing the other safeties as well. Good system.
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Thanks for that post jaybethel... I have to be honest I hate the DA trigger in my Sig, way to tight and to long IMO, but, lots of time to change your mind, if.
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Hey Mr. Steve!
I am also a fan of (Sig 2022) DA/SA. A lot of people poo-poo it (varying trigger pulls, etc.) but my feeling is that the DA at 10-12 pounds is a HELL of a safety. First shot hits and/or has shock value, following shots at 4lb pulll. It's not for everyone, but I like it.
Having said that, I LOVE the trigger on my 1911 and I think you will find the nice triggers intoxicating compared to the Sig Pros. Occasionally at the range I have pulled the trigger and forgotten to release the thumb safety. This is a real concern in a gunfight, obviously. But as others have said here, even if the thumb safety somehow gets pushed off in the holster, the gun should not discharge without depressing the other safeties as well. Good system.
correcting your grip to ride your thumb on top of your safety will make sure you never forget that on again. Also remembering "The Fonz" is a good way to flick your safe on and be ready to holster or then thumb-down to reengage target/threat.
As for the LDA system, I think you shooting one is the only way to find out if its for you. (read either rent, beg, borrow, or buy)
IMO you will LOVE it. The only guns i am lusting for which are pistols are the Tac-5 which is a 5" 9mm LDA and the new M&P9 5".
tex
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Yes and he was the "The Man" and he lived a long great life I am sure.
Any thoughts on the LDA? When it comes to the LDA, I "really" like the "PXT LDA High Capacity Limited", but I am not sure about the size for carry, I guess a good holster could fix almost any concealed carry problems.
On SA I am looking at the "PXT Hi-Cap Single-Action Limited", again size... I guess my eyes like big guns, but both having a fiber sight on front might not be a good choice for carry.
I own a Black Watch Companion (CX745S) LDA 45. The trigger reset takes some getting use to. If you spend alot of time with it no problem. All my SA 1911's are easier to get use to. However they would have to be cocked and locked for CCW. If that is an issue for you. Then the LDA would be right up your alley. No cocked & locked there. On the home page of DRTV at the top you'll notice DRTV videos, click on it. Then click on" Latest On DRTV".There is MB's video on Para's LDA System. It worth a look and should answer some of your questions. Good Luck ;D
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My main carry gun is a PCX745 and I always carry in condition 1. I prefer the Commander size and single stack for the size and weight. If you need more than 8 rounds to accomplish your goal you should practice more. If they do not drop by the second round the third is a head shot. Then you still have 5 more for some one else if needed. one well placed round is better than 12 or 13 sprayed all over the place. A couple of people I know have the LDA and like the trigger system, most say pull is around 6 lbs. As far as a Tail on the grip safety isn't the hammer spurless on these models. I also do not use a thumb break holster being a lefty it gets in the way of the safety. I disengage it automaticly with my index finger on the draw before I get it out of the holster.
Mike Mc
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Cocked & Locked is only as safe as the person holding the firearm. I have carried a 1911 Cocked & Locked for over 20 years with no problems (so far) I know a person who carried his 1911 and when he went to :readjust" the gun in the holster he had a negligent discharge into his friends floor. Luckily the person who lived downstairs wasn't home at the time. Best we can figure out, the thumb safety got knocked off and he put his finger on the trigger when he "readjusted" the pistol. Safety starts between the ears not with a mechanical device.
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LDA can not be carried cock and locked as there is no hammer spur I was having a tough time deciding between the LDA and a Kimber and I did love the trigger on the LDA very smooth but did not have nite sights. If you find one with the options that you want go for it.
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LDA can not be carried cock and locked as there is no hammer spur
PARA USA has a good customer service line which can correct you on why it is 1. cocked while the hammer is down and 2. how it is locked while the safety is engaged
there is no spur because it is harmful to cock an LDA system manually so its the simplest way para avoids the problem
tex
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compared to everything else I shot and carried I feel 1911's are the safest.
Cocked and Locked is the only way to go.
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Thanks everyone for the great info... Now my next problem is to figure out exactly what SA 1911 to go with.
Any thought, Para good go or?
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I have only one...A Sig revolution- nitron finish, night sights. I really like it in general and the trigger is very crisp. Paid about $800 for it. I've had trouble with the sights loosening up- had to re-pin the front sight twice with locktite and the rear sight actually has what looks like a mistake hole drilled off center from the correct one, so it occasionally loosens up. I'm a little disappointed with all that, but when it's all tweaked up it's accurate, good looking, and a pleasure to shoot.
I've fired a few Colts and liked them, and I'm told the Rock Island Armory 1911's (at just over $400) are respectable, but I've never actually held one.
Kimbers are right up there too, along with the Springfields. Next one I get probably won't be new. Look for a nice used piece.
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Thanks for that jaybethel... I will be doing some looking around on net. I do have one problem, for some reason function just isn't on my list, I also have to have the looks as well in a gun. Why that is I have no clue, looks don't make it work when needed.
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Thanks for that jaybethel... I will be doing some looking around on net. I do have one problem, for some reason function just isn't on my list, I also have to have the looks as well in a gun. Why that is I have no clue, looks don't make it work when needed.
Looks are everything. I'm also into guitars, and I'll pass over hundreds of great guns OR guitars in favor of one that LOOKS and feels right. It's part of the whole "opposable thumbs" thing we've got going on.
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Thanks everyone for the great info... Now my next problem is to figure out exactly what SA 1911 to go with.
Any thought, Para good go or?
my go-to-1911 is a S&W 1911PD 4.25" which has Crimson Trace grips and a lot of major PF and +P rounds though it. And almost a tie for first would be the Para. Not as many rounds out of mine as the Smith but after the test Todd J. did with DRTV you cant go wrong. A 1,000rds is a good break-in. ;D That was unreal and a great test of lube as well.
tex
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I have only one...A Sig revolution- nitron finish, night sights. I really like it in general and the trigger is very crisp. Paid about $800 for it. I've had trouble with the sights loosening up- had to re-pin the front sight twice with locktite and the rear sight actually has what looks like a mistake hole drilled off center from the correct one, so it occasionally loosens up. I'm a little disappointed with all that, but when it's all tweaked up it's accurate, good looking, and a pleasure to shoot.
I've fired a few Colts and liked them, and I'm told the Rock Island Armory 1911's (at just over $400) are respectable, but I've never actually held one.
Kimbers are right up there too, along with the Springfields. Next one I get probably won't be new. Look for a nice used piece.
I've been shooting a Rock Island Armory .45 Government model for a year now, It's my carry gun. I love it. Got it at a gun show new for $360 put about 1500 rounds through it with 0 problems. The only thing I've changed is I put Hogue grips on it as I don't care for smooth wood grips.
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If you want all the bells and wistled go with The Para PCX 745 there is three or four models . Buds Guns has the Coyote Brown model on sale under $600. Second choice would be a Colt Commander no bells or wistles for about $100 more if you can find one. If you want a full size 5" model you have the Para SSP series, Rock Island Tactical, Auto Ordinance, Springfield , Taurus PT1911, And Colt
Mike Mc
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I have always been a SA/DA guy when it comes to pistol, but for some reason I am starting to look at 1911s and I'm sure it goes without saying (um well maybe not) I have been looking hard at Para.
Para has so many features and so many models to look at it seems to be the 1st stop shop for 1911s, no reason to look anywhere else IMO.
I have been looking at Para's LDA, but I am not sure how well I would like that system (haven't seen/felt one in person). One problem I am seeing with the LDA action 1911s, there is only one model I like in 4" (Tac-Four), but has no Tail, I would really would like a tail. But now if we go over to the SA action, wow, many I like...
So my reason for this thread...
How safe is a 1911 (Para) when carried Cocked & Locked?
Thanks for any info you can point my way.
I have carried mine for almost 3 years and have had no problems. I am a uniformed patrol officer and I have fought a few dozen times, jumped a hundred or so fences and dinked it numerous times during the course of a duty day. I use a Safariland 6080 daily.
The only way my SSP will go off is if I put MY trigger finger in it and deactivate my thumb safety.
I have no problems with cocked and locked on a daily basis and I will carry my Para until I am ordered otherwise.
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Ok, I am a little late to the thread here. There was a question back a bit about which length to get. There are 2 options to consider for the pistol on length. One is the length of the frame (gov't, officer), and the length of the slide/barrel.
For me, the size of the frame is not so much of a problem to conceal, it is the slide hanging down further that makes the difference. We have 2 of the Kimber Compacts which is an officer frame and a 4" slide. It is easier for my wife to conceal, and easier for me as well. Most of the time I carry my Springfield Loaded, which is a full size 1911. With a good holster, concealment is not a problem.
I have thought about getting a Para just because of the stuff that they have done here on the site. Alas I did not win the Para PXT.. :(
-Bidah
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Thanks everyone... I see it is a safe way to carry.
Now what to get. I did go to a shop that had the Kimber Grand Raptor II, I liked it allot. Now if I can find the Smith & Wesson 1911DK (Doug Koenig) to touch. I like the Para as well, but to be honest, nothing is really turning me on in the looks department like the Kimber and S&W are.
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Thanks everyone... I see it is a safe way to carry.
Now what to get. I did go to a shop that had the Kimber Grand Raptor II, I liked it allot. Now if I can find the Smith & Wesson 1911DK (Doug Koenig) to touch. I like the Para as well, but to be honest, nothing is really turning me on in the looks department like the Kimber and S&W are.
Look at the Sigs.
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I had a Para 3" LDA. Great gun! You don't really need a beavertail. The hammer is bobbed and can't bite you. The gun was super accurate and very reliable. I have to admit I like cocked and locked. I also prefer a longer barrel. I thought the Para's were great though.