The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Hazcat on December 09, 2010, 07:09:27 AM
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The bill gives young illegal immigrants a path to citizenship if they enroll in college or enlist in the military. Supporters call its passage historic — but Democrats probably don't have enough votes to get it through the Senate.
By Lisa Mascaro and Kathleen Hennessey, Tribune Washington Bureau
December 9, 2010
Reporting from Washington —
The House passed a landmark youth immigration bill known as the Dream Act on Wednesday night largely along party lines, but the measure faces a tough test in the Senate as Democrats struggle to pass priority legislation in the waning days of this Congress.
Eight Republicans joined in approving the bill, 216 to 198. Thirty-eight Democrats voted no. The measure offers a path to citizenship for young people who were brought to this country illegally before age 16 and who have enrolled in college or entered the military.
--SNIP--
Obama called on the Senate to follow suit.
The bill could come up there as soon as Thursday but is unlikely to attract the necessary 60 votes to overcome a filibuster. Republican senators have vowed to block all legislation until a stalemate over the George W. Bush-era tax cuts is resolved. Obama and the GOP have reached a deal, but Democrats haven't signed on.
--SNIP--
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-1209-congress-20101209,0,7164104.story
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I actually support this. Some will be surprised because I'm pretty hard core on the border. Others will thnk I'm just being a liberal. Thats not the reason.To me, it boils down to two things.
One, no child should be punished for what their parents did. Someone who's spent their whole life (or most of it) here shouldn't have to be deported to a country and culture they don't even remember.
Two, these kids were raised in our schools, with our culture and our values and by joining up or getting an education are going to be useful citizens. Honestly, what better immigrants could you ask for?
FQ13
PS As to the parents? Screw them, they can get in line like everyone else. Family reunification should not be the overriding factor in immigration. If they speak English, have a skill and ties to the community, give them a break, otherwise, sorry.
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Good point FQ...these kids maybe know nothing BUT the USA and they don't deserve to be screwed because of their parents...on the other hand decisions MY parents made affected my life greatly. Also, will this extend to all youngsters, even if they JUST came across the border?
I still maintain that there IS a pathway to citizenship....take it or you're a criminal.
This is like anything else too...first they'll pass this, then it's pregnant women, then it's famillies, pretty soon everyone gets citizenship except the stupid schmucks that get a visa and apply.
Maybe I could get a pathway to prosperity if I were allowed to shoplift only food essentials like milk, bread,, etc. Next I'd want to be able to shoplift motor oil and beer. Pretty soon the stores go out of business. "But....I just want to break the law A LITTLE BIT"
There's got to be a line somewhere, and right now the BORDER is the line. Politicians are sucking up to the Latino community right and left, and they will sell this country down the river for a few votes.
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You realize this goes all the way to people that are 35 years old and they can have two 'misdemeanor' convictions (like domestic violence).
Also if the kid is illegal how about the parents? Nope not the kids fault but it ain't my fault either. SEND THEM ALL BACK.
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Illegal immigration IS illegal........They have already broken the Law. I know, they say there parents broke the law not them. Then go back and apply for a visa.
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I can agree that a kid who was bought to the US by illegal alien parents at an early age may not be considered a criminal....just like a kid who was taken along in the car when his parents rob a gas station won't be considered a criminal. Also, if the kid lives in the country as a good citizen it doesn't matter a whole lot if they are 35 years old....
But here is where it gets tricky. Once they become a citizen, their family has a quicker path to becoming citizens, with which I don't agree in this case.
If someone goes through the legal process and becomes a citizen, then I'd say if the law gave some preference to their family for immigration, that is ok...but not if they are already here as illegals.
So, to apply for this Dream Act, the "kids" have to "out" their parents and cause them to be deported.
Somehow, I don't think that is gonna happen.
Also, I have a problem with illegal aliens entering our military and our colleges in the first place.
And, for sure, I don't want to give someone the option of going to college or joining up instead of being deported.
The Dream Act qualification should not exist, but I know it does, so if they are willing to become citizens without any relief for their illegal parents, that could be considered an option.
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I'm with the overwhelming majority on this one. Sure the kid didn't have a choice and his parents made the decision for them, but Haz is right, it's not their fault, but it's not mine either.
Illegal is illegal no matter how you slice it. Don't charge the kid, but send him back.
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It's part of the "fruit of the poison tree" theory. How does one establish legality from an act that was begun as illegal? If I rob a bank, then give the money to Sisters of Mercy to feed orphans, does that make the robbery okay? I don't think so. Should my neighbors then have to repay the bank I robbed because the money went to a good cause? I don't think so.
We have here illegals wrongfully obtaining goods and services, then having children who are stealing additional goods and services from all of us, and now we neighbors are asked to pay the bill for all their illegal actions.
Sorry, none of this makes any sense to me. The only acceptable way to make this right (IMHO) is send 'em all back to where they came from. If they can then re-pay the American taxpayers for all they've taken, give 'em a line placement priority and let'em wait with those who are doing the legal/right thing from the get-go.
But, all this should be secondary to SECURING THE BORDER. Shoot a few of 'em as they come across. Announce that as our official policy. That will stop the flow immediately.
Crap.
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It's part of the "fruit of the poison tree" theory. How does one establish legality from an act that was begun as illegal? If I rob a bank, then give the money to Sisters of Mercy to feed orphans, does that make the robbery okay? I don't think so. Should my neighbors then have to repay the bank I robbed because the money went to a good cause? I don't think so.
We have here illegals wrongfully obtaining goods and services, then having children who are stealing additional goods and services from all of us, and now we neighbors are asked to pay the bill for all their illegal actions.
Sorry, none of this makes any sense to me. The only acceptable way to make this right (IMHO) is send 'em all back to where they came from. If they can then re-pay the American taxpayers for all they've taken, give 'em a line placement priority and let'em wait with those who are doing the legal/right thing from the get-go.
But, all this should be secondary to SECURING THE BORDER. Shoot a few of 'em as they come across. Announce that as our official policy. That will stop the flow immediately.
Crap.
well said.
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Lets look at your analogy a little closer Crusader, because its very much on point, and in the news here in Florida. Exchange the bank robber for Bernie Madoff. His victims (people who have lost a large percentage of their wealth, most of them seniors) are now being served with notices to pay by the courts. The same thing is happening to charities and schools who invested with him. The rationale is that they got some proceeds and those further down the pyramid scheme got nadda, and so all the money goes in one pot and gets doled out. If you have to sell the house or close the orphange, even if you did nothing wrong and invested in good faith, too bad. You lose. We're sorry your 401K is now a 101k, but here's the bill, and declaring bankruptcy won't help you since its a legal judgement. >:(
To me, this is more analogous to the kids effected by the Dream Act than your bank robber scenario. They didn't volunteer to come here. They just did what their parents told them to do, no different than we would have done. Now, they've lived in this country, known no other, and we ship them home? Their parents yes. The kids? I say we give them a choice. Earn citizenship through service and stay, or refuse and leave. I am no one's idea of a bleeding heart on the border (and have zero problem with militarizing it), but this seems like the moral (and smart) thing to do.
FQ13
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Lets look at your analogy a little closer Crusader, because its very much on point, and in the news here in Florida. Exchange the bank robber for Bernie Madoff. His victims (people who have lost a large percentage of their wealth, most of them seniors) are now being served with notices to pay by the courts. The same thing is happening to charities and schools who invested with him. The rationale is that they got some proceeds and those further down the pyramid scheme got nadda, and so all the money goes in one pot and gets doled out. If you have to sell the house or close the orphange, even if you did nothing wrong and invested in good faith, too bad. You lose. We're sorry your 401K is now a 101k, but here's the bill, and declaring bankruptcy won't help you since its a legal judgement. >:(
To me, this is more analogous to the kids effected by the Dream Act than your bank robber scenario. They didn't volunteer to come here. They just did what their parents told them to do, no different than we would have done. Now, they've lived in this country, known no other, and we ship them home? Their parents yes. The kids? I say we give them a choice. Earn citizenship through service and stay, or refuse and leave. I am no one's idea of a bleeding heart on the border (and have zero problem with militarizing it), but this seems like the moral (and smart) thing to do.
FQ13
Of course you do. You drank the kool-ade.
Is there something about the word "illegal" that you just don't get ?
I told you they would pass this BS.
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Lets look at your analogy a little closer Crusader, because its very much on point, and in the news here in Florida. Exchange the bank robber for Bernie Madoff. His victims (people who have lost a large percentage of their wealth, most of them seniors) are now being served with notices to pay by the courts. The same thing is happening to charities and schools who invested with him. The rationale is that they got some proceeds and those further down the pyramid scheme got nadda, and so all the money goes in one pot and gets doled out. If you have to sell the house or close the orphange, even if you did nothing wrong and invested in good faith, too bad. You lose. We're sorry your 401K is now a 101k, but here's the bill, and declaring bankruptcy won't help you since its a legal judgement. >:(
To me, this is more analogous to the kids effected by the Dream Act than your bank robber scenario. They didn't volunteer to come here. They just did what their parents told them to do, no different than we would have done. Now, they've lived in this country, known no other, and we ship them home? Their parents yes. The kids? I say we give them a choice. Earn citizenship through service and stay, or refuse and leave. I am no one's idea of a bleeding heart on the border (and have zero problem with militarizing it), but this seems like the moral (and smart) thing to do.
FQ13
Here is the problem with your analogy. The people investing with Madoff weren't knowingly and willfully committing a crime. Illegals bringing their kids across the border however are. They know from the time they cross the border that they are now in violation of the law. Getting caught is a risk they take both for themselves and their children. Yes I feel bad for the kids in this situation, but it is not my fault, and not my responsibility that their parents have put them at risk.
Send the parents back, ok, but now you have created a whole new set of problems if you don't deport the kids too. First, what do you do with the kids? Foster care? Make them a ward of the state? (in which we the taxpayer must pay for) Plus now you have parents that you have deported that will most likely be trying to get back in to find their kid. (most likely illegally AGAIN)
While I don't see how it is right to make the victims of Madoff pay ANYTHING. That is a separate issue. I fail to see how it relates here. As I have said, these people invested money with someone who (on paper) looked legit. They didn't knowingly break any laws. There is a reason we call them ILLEGAL aliens.
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But here is where it gets tricky. Once they become a citizen, their family has a quicker path to becoming citizens, with which I don't agree in this case.
Agreed.
If the option is given to someone who was brought here under the age of say, 8, then OK. Get the paperwork done and your place is at the end of the line. Behind all the people who are going through the process LEGALLY.
But, as has been pointed out, what to do with the kid then? Let them stay with the illegal Aunt & Uncle? Ward of the state? Gee, we get to pay for that too!
Also, I have a problem with illegal aliens entering our military and our colleges in the first place.
College I'm not sure about, I think you can enter a college by paying nonresident fees. I don't know if they check your status to see if you have a green card. (I doubt it. It's probably considered non-PC)
You don't have to be a citizen to be in the military.
You do have to have a green card or BECOME a naturalized citizen. Letting an illegal alien join the military just because they live here is NUTS!
Passing this law WITHOUT securing the border FIRST is also NUTS.
I don't think it has a snowballs chance in the Senate.
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DREAM Act appears dead after (Senate) Dems pull it from consideration
Washington (CNN) -- Senate Democrats conceded Thursday they don't have the votes to pass the DREAM Act, a bill that would have offered a path to citizenship for some illegal immigrants who entered the United States as children.
Democrats voted to pull the measure from consideration, most likely killing any chance of passage this year for the hotly contested bill, Senate supporters say.
Senate Republicans opposed the bill, standing by their pledge to block any legislation during the lame duck session until the chamber approves bills to extend the Bush tax cuts and fund the government.
The so-called Development, Relief and Education for Alien Minors Act would have affected immigrants who entered the United States illegally as children under the age of 16 and have lived in the country for at least five years. Other requirements include graduating from high-school or obtaining a General Education Development diploma and demonstrating "good moral character."
Even then, only a six-year conditional status would be awarded
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/12/09/dream.act/index.html
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Every single one of them should have all their assets seized and be dumped across the nearest border, while their apologists and employers are jailed, and any city or state that calls itself a "sanctuary" should lose all federal funding until they comply with US law.
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My solution to the immigration issue is 3 fold...
1) If you aren't a citizen there is no public assistance no welfare, no medical and no duty to treat. Additionally no public education. People bring their kids here to have a better life. If you take that away they won't come.
2) Remove the stupid, your born here you are a citizen stuff. This will eliminate anchor children and any benefit from having a child here (see #1)
3) Make hiring a illegal a felony. Since property can be confiscated that was used in the commission of a felony, no employer would risk their equipment simply for cheep labor. No job, no money, no reason to come.
This has an added benefit... It would create jobs so that the 99-weeks of unemployment discussion would stop.
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Agreed.
If the option is given to someone who was brought here under the age of say, 8, then OK. Get the paperwork done and your place is at the end of the line. Behind all the people who are going through the process LEGALLY.
But, as has been pointed out, what to do with the kid then? Let them stay with the illegal Aunt & Uncle? Ward of the state? Gee, we get to pay for that too!
College I'm not sure about, I think you can enter a college by paying nonresident fees. I don't know if they check your status to see if you have a green card. (I doubt it. It's probably considered non-PC)
You don't have to be a citizen to be in the military.
You do have to have a green card or BECOME a naturalized citizen. Letting an illegal alien join the military just because they live here is NUTS!
Passing this law WITHOUT securing the border FIRST is also NUTS.
I don't think it has a snowballs chance in the Senate.
Can anyone here say Ft. Hood? It is strategic suicide to allow someone who is not a loyal citizen of your country to fight for you.
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3) Make hiring a illegal a felony. Since property can be confiscated that was used in the commission of a felony, no employer would risk their equipment simply for cheep labor. No job, no money, no reason to come.
This has an added benefit... It would create jobs so that the 99-weeks of unemployment discussion would stop.
Just had an incident here in a central Illinois small town (pop. 5,000) where an expensive restaurant had to close down because all the kitchen help were illegal. Of course the owners said they had no ideal, even though some of them had worked there for more than 2 years. (can you say work for cash)
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Just had an incident here in a central Illinois small town (pop. 5,000) where an expensive restaurant had to close down because all the kitchen help were illegal. Of course the owners said they had no ideal, even though some of them had worked there for more than 2 years. (can you say work for cash)
Really sucks when Chucky Cheese goes under. Maybe they should have paid them in prize tickets instead..... ;D
I'll be in the corner waiting for ride ride to hell..... ::)
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C'mon the cost of allowing these folks into our financial aid packages like Pell Grants, (it's already about broke, but who cares?), is just a minor thing. Literally insignificant, like unemployment checks.
We won't use unspent "stimulus" funds to fund anything, as it's a slush fund for the unions anyway.
Harry Reid? Really? Best interest of the country? Are you serious? Look at the UK college students, our college age kids will be doing the same shortly, when their financial aid programs all go belly up.
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C'mon the cost of allowing these folks into our financial aid packages like Pell Grants, (it's already about broke, but who cares?), is just a minor thing. Literally insignificant, like unemployment checks.
We won't use unspent "stimulus" funds to fund anything, as it's a slush fund for the unions anyway.
Harry Reid? Really? Best interest of the country? Are you serious? Look at the UK college students, our college age kids will be doing the same shortly, when their financial aid programs all go belly up.
there was a artical in the news paper a few weeks back that said each illegal costs CA37k and change a year. I don't know if that info is true or not, if it is, it really explains why we are broke.
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My solution to the immigration issue is 3 fold...
1) If you aren't a citizen there is no public assistance no welfare, no medical and no duty to treat. Additionally no public education. People bring their kids here to have a better life. If you take that away they won't come.
2) Remove the stupid, your born here you are a citizen stuff. This will eliminate anchor children and any benefit from having a child here (see #1)
3) Make hiring a illegal a felony. Since property can be confiscated that was used in the commission of a felony, no employer would risk their equipment simply for cheep labor. No job, no money, no reason to come.
This has an added benefit... It would create jobs so that the 99-weeks of unemployment discussion would stop.
Folks can be here legally and not be citizens. It might take some time from the arrival to citizenship. During that time they will (if they are serious about becoming citizens) be working and paying taxes. I agree that they should get no welfare, but I don't think ANYONE should be getting welfare. Let local charities assist those who are truly needy.
However there might be some Government funding that should be going to them. The biggest that comes to mind is primary education for their children. If they are really working towards becoming citizens, it would not be a good thing to let their kids fall behind when the process was under way.
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Folks can be here legally and not be citizens. It might take some time from the arrival to citizenship. During that time they will (if they are serious about becoming citizens) be working and paying taxes. I agree that they should get no welfare, but I don't think ANYONE should be getting welfare. Let local charities assist those who are truly needy.
However there might be some Government funding that should be going to them. The biggest that comes to mind is primary education for their children. If they are really working towards becoming citizens, it would not be a good thing to let their kids fall behind when the process was under way.
I agree with education if you are here legally, hell I'll throw in medical for your kids.... if you are here legally.
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There is a huge diffrence between being here legally and being here illegal.
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Really sucks when Chucky Cheese goes under. Maybe they should have paid them in prize tickets instead..... ;D
I'll be in the corner waiting for ride ride to hell..... ::)
Don't be makin fun of a high class joint like Chucky Cheese...... ;D
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http://tombogan03884.wordpress.com/the-true-cost-of-illegal-immagration/
The info contained here was originally posted on www.downrange.tv by Gunman42782
1) $11 to$22 BILLION on welfare to illegal aliens. http://www.tinyurl.com/zob77
2) $2.2 BILLION spent on food assistance,Food stamps,WIC etc… for illegal aliens http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
3)$2.5 BILLION per year spent on medicaid for illegals http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
4) $12 BILLION per year is spent on primary and secondary education for children here illegally. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/idt.01.html
5) $17 BILLION per year spent on education of U.S. born children of illegal aliens, called “Anchor babies”. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/idt.01.html
6) $3 MILLION per DAY spent to incarcerate illegal aliens http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/idt.01.html
7) 30% of federal prisoners are illegal aliens http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/idt.01.html
8 ) $90 BILLION per year spent on welfare and social services for illegal aliens. Paid for by the US taxpayer http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/idt.01.html
9) $200 BILLION in suppressed US wages are caused by illegal aliens. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/idt.01.html
10) The illegal aliens in the US have a crime rate 2.5 times that of white non-illegal immegrants. In particular their children are going to cause a huge additional crime problem in the US http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/idt.01.html
11) During the year 2005 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens crossed our Southern border, also as many as 19500 illegal aliens from terrorist counties plus MILLIONS of pounds of drugs. Homeland security Report, http://www.tinyurl.com/T9sht
12) The National Policy Institute estimated that the cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 BILLION or an average of $41 to $46 BILLION annually over a five year period. http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf
13) In 2006 illegal aliens sent $45 BILLION to their counties of origin. http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm
14) Nearly 1 MILLION sex crimes committed by illegal aliens in the US. http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtmtl
We are paying $338 BILLION per year to subsidize the invasion of our own country.
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Send them back all back when they become legal they can bring the whole damn illegal family in. No Dream act and No form of amnesty just get in the legal line like everyone else. Jail employers that hire illgals and take all the benefits they have made from the illegal labor. No Dream Act