The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: swatpup102 on December 15, 2010, 06:02:58 AM
-
This was on the news yesterday, and re-affirms absolutely the importance of self defense capability - anytime, anywhere. I am glad the life taken was the gunman's. Stay safe out there!
-
Heard about it, nothing about motive yet.
-
Here's another one:
Embedding not allowed on this one.
(((I hijacked Marshals post and it CAN be embedded..
you just have to be the "smart one" in the family.. ))
Its a tough tough position to be in ~~but I manage.. )) ;D
-
I have chaired many public meetings, and some of those included public hearings on "hot" topics. Every time I prepared for the meeting I thought about "what if I need to." And, every time I took my seat behind the table I reviewed my options. As I watch this all I can think of is "What if just one member of that board had been prepared?" I know it all worked out in the end, but only because Mr. Duke was a horrible shot.
-
The gal that snuck up behind him was brave but woefully under-equipped. She would have been better off with a fire extinguisher than a purse.
*Any* firearm in her hands would have sealed this cowards fate.
-
Couple of observations.
Not one of the seated board members acted to help the woman who had the courage to risk her life to try to end the situation even though they saw her with enough time to prepare to move.
Either the security guard at the rear of the room was not present for the whole incident and just entered before he opened fire, perhaps prompted to do so by the first shots of the gunman or he waited way to long to respond. If he was outside the room he must have been made aware of the situation by those allowed to leave. In any case, his failure to act sooner did not result in the deaths of those he was to protect only due to the poor ability of the gunman.
And yes, had the courageous woman been armed and capable, it would have been a much shorter story. If anyone in that room had been armed besides the gunman, it would have been much shorter.
-
I can't help but wonder why the 3+ second delay between the time this guy fired his first round and the Chief of Security firing HIS first round? Did he not have his gun ready as soon as the BG produced his? And if not, WHY the hell not?
I'm reminded of a shooting incident at a City Council meeting in a town here in Iowa several years ago. When TSHTF, the city's Police Chief, who had been at the meeting, realized that he had left his sidearm in the car. He ran to the car to retrieve it, only to realize that his car keys were still in the pocket of his jacket, IN THE COUNCIL CHAMBERS. Sadly, THAT particular looney toon gunman was a better shot than the one in Florida yesterday. Something tells me that Police Chief carries his gun in the SHOWER these days.
-
I think the board chairman handled it as well as could be. He kept the guy talking, tried to calm him, tried to protect the others. All well done (IMHO) considering the circumstances.
-
I think the board chairman handled it as well as could be. He kept the guy talking, tried to calm him, tried to protect the others. All well done (IMHO) considering the circumstances.
Absolutely.
-
Mitch, most women carry enough crap in their purse to brain an Ox.
-
I think the board chairman handled it as well as could be. He kept the guy talking, tried to calm him, tried to protect the others. All well done (IMHO) considering the circumstances.
Agree that for a bunch of ill-prepared citizens (sheep ?), they did the best they could with the situation at hand....they got lucky the gunman was inept.
As others have pointed out already, one prepared citizen (or preferably more) could have ended the situation sooner.
-
"Police were alerted immediately.....they were there within minutes."
When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.
-
Agree that for a bunch of ill-prepared citizens (sheep ?), they did the best they could with the situation at hand....they got lucky the gunman was inept.
As others have pointed out already, one prepared citizen (or preferably more) could have ended the situation sooner.
Having a CCW does not mean you are prepared. its the software not the hardware.
I don't know what the CCW rate is in FL, but lets just say its 1 out of 100. lets also say that 1 out of 100 CCW holders have actually had some training and shoot thier CCW guns often. Thats only 1 out of every 10000 that is prepared.
-
I'm assuming this is another one of those perfectly safe "Gun Free Zones"? Bill T.
-
I'm assuming this is another one of those perfectly safe "Gun Free Zones"? Bill T.
My thoughts on gun free zones...If they don't have metal detectors and or pat downs, I'll have mine with me.
-
What I've noticed is all the damn coverage of it. I can easily see this athe the "sound bite" to try for a new "gun control" push led by the people behind the media.
NBC's Today show had all the school board members there for an interview.
The house is set to change soon, but there's still time to sneak things in. I think we should keep an eye on this one and have our facts ready to disspell any exagerations created by sesationalism.
-
Most CCW states, forbid LAWFUL citizens from carrying on gov't/school property. YET the crazies and misfits, can somehow just enter.
Local FL. news mentioned the "impeccable timing of the security guard, Jones",....uh,...the BG should have been tazed or shot after the spray painting,. The sheeple mentality was prevalent when the situation started to degrade. Too bad. But it's rather a cultural aspect, that goes with APPEASEMENT.....Which is a damn failure.
Thankfully this was the lousiest shooter out there. MINUTES went by, before Jones the security guard showed up.
Remember, the LAW ABIDING CITIZEN CANNOT CARRY on this property. If one could have, it may have ended much earlier.
-
Having a CCW does not mean you are prepared. its the software not the hardware.
I don't know what the CCW rate is in FL, but lets just say its 1 out of 100. lets also say that 1 out of 100 CCW holders have actually had some training and shoot thier CCW guns often. Thats only 1 out of every 10000 that is prepared.
I said nothing about CCW in my post. I thought it was clear....I said "ONE PREPARED CITIZEN".
Agree that for a bunch of ill-prepared citizens (sheep ?), they did the best they could with the situation at hand....they got lucky the gunman was inept.
As others have pointed out already, one prepared citizen (or preferably more) could have ended the situation sooner.
There are other ways to be 'prepared'.
Well, at least you're consistent...I'll give you that.
Like TW pointed out, it was a gov't building........ most (all?) states, CCW is not legal in a state-owned building.
My personal opinion is if I can pass the background to have a CCW, then I should have the same carry rights as LEO's.
-
This guy had no intention of hurting any one. The Chairman was right, he just wanted the cops to kill him.
-
I said nothing about CCW in my post. I thought it was clear....I said "ONE PREPARED CITIZEN".
There are other ways to be 'prepared'.
Well, at least you're consistent...I'll give you that.
Like TW pointed out, it was a gov't building........ most (all?) states, CCW is not legal in a state-owned building.
My personal opinion is if I can pass the background to have a CCW, then I should have the same carry rights as LEO's.
I was just pointing out how rare a prepared person actually is.
-
Thankfully this was the lousiest shooter out there. MINUTES went by, before Jones the security guard showed up.
I don't think this guy wanted to kill anyone. Classic suicide by cop. It didn't upset him when the woman whacked him with her purse. He could have easily off'ed her right there. Instead he let her and many others go, then stalled for time just hanging around letting the board members babble on. He looked as if he carefully aimed at the first guy, but missed by a mile. He took his time before doing it because it was almost as if he wanted to give the cops time to get in place. Once the shooting started it was all over. Plus, he was smart enough to save the last round for himself just in case they were worse shots than he was. All of this, plus his exclamation, "I'm going to die today" shows he planned the outcome without hurting any others. Bill T.
-
I think you are correct, Bill.
I also heard that he claimed to be upset over the firing of his wife and it was found he had no wife who worked there.
It does look like he was building compelling reasons for folks to believe his intent was to kill folks but his actions were otherwise.
Will be wondering what his motives were.
-
I think you are correct, Bill.
I also heard that he claimed to be upset over the firing of his wife and it was found he had no wife who worked there.
It does look like he was building compelling reasons for folks to believe his intent was to kill folks but his actions were otherwise.
Will be wondering what his motives were.
We'll never know the real reason but I'd put money on depression, bankrupcy, failures of some sort (family/business ect).
As for the time it took the security guard to fire... Do we know where he was when it started? He could have only been alerted to it after he let the women go and was just getting to the room when he started shooting. It was only 20 secs from when the gunman leveled the weapon on the board member to the first shot that hit the gunman.
Mitch, most women carry enough crap in their purse to brain an Ox.
The woman that hit him was aiming for his arm not his head. A head shot with the purse probably would have ended it.
-
Glenn Beck was channelling Michael Bane when he talked about it--his response was to the effect "Luckily he was a liberal and didn't know how to shoot."
-
I was just pointing out how rare a prepared person actually is.
On that I agree 100%.............. rarely a sheepdog in a flock of thousands.
This whole situation is why I hate to go to a place like that....where I can't legally carry. I feel naked without my sidearm. I carry other weapons, but they are all close-contact stuff. Whenever I have to go to court for jury duty or such, I sit close to a side exit (there are 2 in out courtroom). The bailiffs at our courthouse are one notch above a joke, and since my physical limitations prevent little more than a stationary defensive action, I figure my best bet (in a scenario like the one here) is to try for the door and hope the guy can't hit a moving target. Then I could summon help/authorities.
The hinge on the whole thing is that it is semi-easy to Monday morning something like this, but in all reality, you can't predict what will happen in any given event. About the best we can do is train for as many variables as possible and to mentally process input as rapidly as possible in order to adjust to a situation as it occurs.
-
Sadly, the law to restrict LAW ABIDING folks from LEGALLY carrying on any city, county, state property, etc,...will not change....
Yet, these BG's keep coming. They have metal detectors for our kids at their schools, but not at these meetings?
Seems a security job, might be a decent job choice for a slim job market...
-
Honestly, even if I was there and armed, I really doubt I would have done anything, until he started to open fire.
-
Honestly, even if I was there and armed, I really doubt I would have done anything, until he started to open fire.
Good point to ponder.
*Note: While you were posting, I was adding to my previous post.
-
Honestly, even if I was there and armed, I really doubt I would have done anything, until he started to open fire.
Can't say what I would have done if I had been on that board, but if given a clear shot I have practiced to take it. I will never know for sure until put in that position for sure, but the reason I learn, train and practice is to be ready to take the shot.
If you are going to wait till he shoots first you may just find out how hard it is to pull a trigger with a third nostril!
If my emotions were in check I would have done all I could have to put this coward down!
The only thing worse than committing suicide is forcing some one to do it for you.
-
The only thing more worse than committing suicide is forcing some one to do it for you.
I never understood the mindset of "suicide by cop". I mean, if one is that committed to go, one would think they'd have the balls to do it themselves.
-
Can't say what I would have done if I had been on that board, but if given a clear shot I have practiced to take it. I will never know for sure until put in that position for sure, but the reason I learn, train and practice is to be ready to take the shot.
If you are going to wait till he shoots first you may just find out how hard it is to pull a trigger with a third nostril!
If my emotions were in check I would have done all I could have to put this coward down!
The only thing worse than committing suicide is forcing some one to do it for you.
Look at it from this perspective.
Say the Board President, who appeared to be the primary target, was a loved one, spouse, child or sibling.
I don't think many would wait until that first shot was fired and the loved one lay bleeding before taking action to put the guy down.
I don't think i could pass on the chance to avoid the possible death of an innocent just because the innocent was not close to me.
-
If he was really intent on killing them .. He would have shot when he was standing by the door ( with the woman with her purse ::) ) and had a clear shot of all of them.. instead of waiting to allow them to hunker down behind the desk.
Sad thing is.. if he had of tried to talk to them in another setting.. without the gun etc.. The jerks would have waved him off.. not give a damn about his wife getting fired or any other thing he had on his mind.
Hell.. they didn't even know his wife worked at the school.
But mark on a wall.. wave a gun around.. and they are all begging to help him help find a new job for his wife.. They are all bending over backwards to be friends and to help their fellow man..
BS~~ if he had never fired the gun... as soon as he was apprehended.. They would have turned their backs on him and never gave him or his wife a second glance in the help dept..
Yes.. it is a bad thing.. and I don't condone what he did and how he did it.. and in a way he is a coward..
but there were a whole string of cowards sitting behind that desk also.
Dammit.. people are pushed to the outer limits right now.. Corporate bullshit.. uncaring people in the system.. I can see sometimes where people ( who are a bit volatile anyway) can just be stretched to their last notch.
It made me sick when the news commentators kept saying .."There's a whole lot of heros in this room..."
Ohhh Pluuuueeeze~~ Heros my white ass! I didn't see any heros.. I saw several "more than many" times that something could have been done to disarm.. knock him down.. cause disruption to thwart him from continuing.. Men who sat there like stones peeing in their pants.. begging.. .. but no heros..
No Heros in that room.. anywhere.. on either side of the table.
-
This guy had no intention of hurting any one. The Chairman was right, he just wanted the cops to kill him.
His wife said he was an excellent shot, but he missed from that distance. According to news reports he was mad that his wife had been fired (downsizing) . I also believe he wanted to end it.
-
If he was really intent on killing them .. He would have shot when he was standing by the door ( with the woman with her purse ::) ) and had a clear shot of all of them.. instead of waiting to allow them to hunker down behind the desk.
Sad thing is.. if he had of tried to talk to them in another setting.. without the gun etc.. The jerks would have waved him off.. not give a damn about his wife getting fired or any other thing he had on his mind.
Hell.. they didn't even know his wife worked at the school.
But mark on a wall.. wave a gun around.. and they are all begging to help him help find a new job for his wife.. They are all bending over backwards to be friends and to help their fellow man..
BS~~ if he had never fired the gun... as soon as he was apprehended.. They would have turned their backs on him and never gave him or his wife a second glance in the help dept..
Yes.. it is a bad thing.. and I don't condone what he did and how he did it.. and in a way he is a coward..
but there were a whole string of cowards sitting behind that desk also.
Dammit.. people are pushed to the outer limits right now.. Corporate bullshit.. uncaring people in the system.. I can see sometimes where people ( who are a bit volatile anyway) can just be stretched to their last notch.
It made me sick when the news commentators kept saying .."There's a whole lot of heros in this room..."
Ohhh Pluuuueeeze~~ Heros my white ass! I didn't see any heros.. I saw several "more than many" times that something could have been done to disarm.. knock him down.. cause disruption to thwart him from continuing.. Men who sat there like stones peeing in their pants.. begging.. .. but no heros..
No Heros in that room.. anywhere.. on either side of the table.
+1 wHAT SHE SAID !! Every branch of government views the average guy as an inconvenience, and there's no accommodation for the people who pay their salaries.
-
The only hero I saw in that room was the woman with the purse! Everyone else just did the minimum they could to keep from crawling under the table. The security guard did his job, but I wonder why it took him so long to react - assuming that he was posted at the meeting room.
Yesterday I saw an interview with his wife where she called the shooter a "hero" for saving the lives of the others. Her words were that he shot to miss and to cause them to dive for cover so they wouldn't be harmed when the police rushed the room shooting wildly.
-
News story I saw this morning said there was no record of his wife working for the School Dept ?
-
Here's a good interview with Mike Jones that explains how it went down.
Spoiler alert: he says "clips."
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7157901n&tag=mncol;lst;3 (http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7157901n&tag=mncol;lst;3)
-
This was a little more to the point. Viva la Mike Jones! He seems like an all around good guy that was in the right place at the right time.
BTW. I have some time off so I will attempt to get some more smart donkey type comments...
-
Great interviews.
Seems like an upstanding and humble guy.
-
I said nothing about CCW in my post. I thought it was clear....I said "ONE PREPARED CITIZEN".
There are other ways to be 'prepared'.
Well, at least you're consistent...I'll give you that.
Like TW pointed out, it was a gov't building........ most (all?) states, CCW is not legal in a state-owned building.
My personal opinion is if I can pass the background to have a CCW, then I should have the same carry rights as LEO's.
One of the great things about Texas. You can get in the state capitol faster and not have to deal with the metal detectors if you have a ccw license. Still cant carry on school prperty. Unless its a college then you just cant enter any of the buildings.
-
One of the great things about Texas. You can get in the state capitol faster and not have to deal with the metal detectors if you have a ccw license. Still cant carry on school prperty. Unless its a college then you just cant enter any of the buildings.
see now that bothers me... why should a CCW holder be held to a diffrent standard as some one else? just like why should a off duty LEO, be held to a diffrent standard as a non LEO?
-
It dosent bother me. Hell its more like an incentive to get it. Plus it tells the BG who not to screw with ( or to shoot first). Hell even the governor carries.
-
It should.
Lets replace CCW with say contracting lic. would it be fair for me as a contractor to be able to walk right by the metal dectors and you can't?
I have had contracting lic in 5 states, every single one of them took more mandatory training/harder tests, cost more, had the same back ground check then it took to get a CCW in the same state.
Think about that for a second.
-
I have had contracting lic in 5 states, every single one of them took more mandatory training/harder tests, cost more, had the same back ground check then it took to get a CCW in the same state.
Think about that for a second.
You're denied a contractors lic if you have a domestic violence incident from 15 or 20 years ago?
I had no idea.
From M'Ette: It made me sick when the news commentators kept saying .."There's a whole lot of heros in this room..."
+1
-
So you would rather go throught the metal detectors and have to show everyone that you are in fact armed? Atleast the other way they dont know for sure. Sorry I dont see a contracting lic. the same as a ccw.
-
I'd rather have every one treated the same.
My point about the contracting lic bit was that there are many other things that the goverment requires to do XXXX, that are alot harder to get then a CCW. Why should CCW be singled out?
reality, there is not a member on this board that has not commited a felony of some kind at some point in thier life. Chances are very good you may not have even known you commited a felony. The diffrence between us and a convicted felony is litterly they got cuaght. There are thousands and thousands of felonys on the books. Some make sense, others are from a diffrent time period and some are just plain strange.
Yes I do have a CCW, I do live in CA, and I find it rediculus thats its harder to get a Contracting lic then it is to get a ccw in most states.
-
see now that bothers me... why should a CCW holder be held to a diffrent standard as some one else? just like why should a off duty LEO, be held to a diffrent standard as a non LEO?
How about the simple fact that a CCW holder has already gone through at least 2 background checks, one o buy the Gun, another for the CCW.
Dumbass. ::)
-
As I've said in this thread, there is not a single person here that has not commited a felony at some point in thier life. the only diffrence between us and those that can not own guns is they got caught.
Often you don't even know you have commited a felony.
Things can change between the time of the last back ground check. Ever see how fast some one can destroy thier life with meth? I mean going from a person with a family and job. To will do anything for thier next fix? Its not very long.
-
see now that bothers me... why should a CCW holder be held to a diffrent standard as some one else? just like why should a off duty LEO, be held to a diffrent standard as a non LEO?
TAB, you are correct in your dislike of this situation and in your belief that everyone should be equal.
The solution is not to begrudge those who have a means to get closer to what we all should have.
The solution to getting everyone their proper rights under the 2A is not to make everyone "equal" by taking away more favorable rights of those who have them.
As an example. I believe everyone should only be paying a very small, below 5%, income tax. Everyone paying that same low tax.
Well, the way to get there is not to raise the taxes of those who are able to get a lower rate so that everyone will be equal at a higher rate.
-
TAB is like one of those Muslims that has no goat, but lives next to some one who does.
He does the "logical" thing,
He prays to Allah to kill his neighbors goat. ;D
-
TAB, I can't understand why you hang out around here. Most of us accept the fact that our right to carry is the Second Amendment to the Constitution. Every time something like this comes around you have doom and gloom about "unprepared" or "unqualified" people having a gun and doing more harm than good. You have all kinds of reasons why we shouldn't carry, or if we carry why we shouldn't use the tool, and all the negatives concerning carrying and protecting ourselves.
Why can't you look at it from the "glass is half full" side for once, and think about the people that act responsibly, train and practice, and are prepared for confrontation? Why not accept that many are properly prepared to act rather than worry about someone that may not be trained for the exact circumstance they are in?
In this case in Florida, do you honestly think that this security guard had in depth training and practice that made him better than anyone behind the table concerning neutralizing this threat? Taking your "glass is half empty" side, how do you justify the fact this security guard shot at the gunman with innocents down range and dangerously in the line of fire?
-
I bet the law mandated training he had was more then a CCW holders.
-
Class G License - Armed Security Guard
Registration Fee From $180.00*
*Prices may vary by city.
Online registration and payment is required to reserve your place in a course. Class seating is limited and fills up quickly, so register early.
Registrants will learn the requirements for employment as an armed security officer as required by Florida State Statutes Section 493, 775, and 790.
# 28 - Hours of Training
# Classroom
# Gun Range
# Class Conducted in 3 or 4 Days
A temporary license from the state of Florida can be obtained upon satisfactory completion of this course and a psychological and physical examination until the permanent licensed is received.
The permanent license from the state of Florida will be issued within 60 - 90 days after completion of the course.
Registration Fee Includes:
# Gun Range Use
# Ammunition & Targets
# 4 - Hours of Classroom Instruction
# Firearms Safety & Mechanics
# Civil Liability & Use of Force Issues
# Handgun Marksmanship
# Care and Maintenance of Firearms
# Other Required Armed Training
Schedule & Calendar
Register Online Now
http://floridasecuritylicense.com/g-dlicense.htm (http://floridasecuritylicense.com/g-dlicense.htm)
Looks pretty minimal to me. You think that 28 hours of training is enough to cover all of this to a level any higher than a responsible citizen would already require of themselves?
-
No I don't, but I bet its a bunch more then CCW holder gets.
-
No I don't, but I bet its a bunch more then CCW holder gets.
I don't know about Kalifornia, but Kentucky at least meets, if not exceeds, their criteria. I would also venture to say that most security guards are concerned only with getting a job and don't plan on utilizing their weapon. CCW permit holders, however, are usually carrying with the intent of protecting themselves, as well as their loved ones. They, therefore, are more likely to make the effort to be better trained / prepared than some guy just trying to earn a paycheck.
Swoop
-
Heck I figured I would jump on in.
First, a contracting license is probably a poor example in this case, but lets stick with it. A contracting license or the ability to "contract" in a said state is nothing more than a limit on competition. It is a deal struck by established contractors and the state to limit competition in the contracting industry. I say this from a Libertarian point of view: i.e. laws destroy freedom. TAB, I understand that you've put plenty of work in to obtain these licenses so please don't take it as a knock on your efforts, but lets call it what it is. I'm sure that you can and will point to shoddy work done by unlicensed contractors as a reason for these laws, but the fact remains that if you actually believe in freedom, you can see that if a state can say who you can hire to build for you, or enter a contract with is a destruction of freedom.
How does this get to CCW holders and special treatment? Hold on I'm trying. The RTKBA is a constitutionally guaranteed, inalienable right. CCW laws are a state's efforts to limit a constitutional right. In other words, both the contracting license and CCW laws are limits on freedom. Can both get you killed? Sure. So can a lot of other things. That shouldn't be the measure of your personal freedom.
I totally agree with you about the equality of treatment, however if agreeing to less freedom for the sake of equality its a road you would choose, then take it. I will not.
-
No I don't, but I bet its a bunch more then CCW holder gets.
I refer back to my earlier post - Why do you hang around on a forum that has such an opposing view of firearms and their use?
-
I believe Mr. Jones (security guard in question) was also a retired detective if I remember the story correctly...
-
Heck I figured I would jump on in.
First, a contracting license is probably a poor example in this case, but lets stick with it. A contracting license or the ability to "contract" in a said state is nothing more than a limit on competition. It is a deal struck by established contractors and the state to limit competition in the contracting industry. I say this from a Libertarian point of view: i.e. laws destroy freedom. TAB, I understand that you've put plenty of work in to obtain these licenses so please don't take it as a knock on your efforts, but lets call it what it is. I'm sure that you can and will point to shoddy work done by unlicensed contractors as a reason for these laws, but the fact remains that if you actually believe in freedom, you can see that if a state can say who you can hire to build for you, or enter a contract with is a destruction of freedom.
How does this get to CCW holders and special treatment? Hold on I'm trying. The RTKBA is a constitutionally guaranteed, inalienable right. CCW laws are a state's efforts to limit a constitutional right. In other words, both the contracting license and CCW laws are limits on freedom. Can both get you killed? Sure. So can a lot of other things. That shouldn't be the measure of your personal freedom.
I totally agree with you about the equality of treatment, however if agreeing to less freedom for the sake of equality its a road you would choose, then take it. I will not.
I've been screwed less by unliced guys then I have by lic guys. at about a 20 to 1 raito.
THe lic really mean nothing to me. My point in bring up Contracting lic is that its wrong that its harder to get then a CCW.
I see no diffrence between some one that has a CCW and some one that doesn't. Why should anyone else?
I think every one should be able to get a CCW, but I don't think it should be just a matter of filling out a form and paying for it. At the very least there needs to be a class on the laws for CCW and the use of force laws in the state. I also think that if you have a ND, you have proved you can't safely handle a firearm and should lose your CCW for life. I said ND, not AD. AD are extremly rare.
-
-
Ted is not a good example.
look into his past, there are some not pretty things.
also, he had a buddy swear him in has a LEO so he could legally carry in all 50 states. The guy needs to stick to rock and roll.
-
After reading your post before this last one, I think I better understand your position.
Regardless of your feelings on Uncle Ted, I believe the video posted by m58 speaks more to the soul of the issue in which I concur wholeheartedly.
-
After reading your post before this last one, I think I better understand your position.
Regardless of your feelings on Uncle Ted, I believe the video posted by m58 speaks more to the soul of the issue in which I concur wholeheartedly.
I'm not disagreeing with you on the message, its just anything that comes out of teds mouth that is not rock and roll is toxic.
Like I said, dig into his past, but be warned you might not like what you find.
-
I find Uncle Ted's logic tough to argue with.
-
I'm not disagreeing with you on the message, its just anything that comes out of teds mouth that is not rock and roll is toxic.
Like I said, dig into his past, but be warned you might not like what you find.
According to you, dig into ANYBODY's past and you might not like what you find. I refer to your assertion that everyone (assumingly including yourself) is a felon.
The more I read the more I echo m58's question.
-
"To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic."
Ted Nugent
Disagree TAB?
-
There has to be a difference in the requirements set by what ever authority for different occupations/functions.
A security guard is hired, as is a contractor, to perform certain duties and to be aware of certain rules and regulations. Since they will be charging for their services, additional requirements are placed upon them to try to insure the customer can expect a reasonable product.
Additionally, the skill set and knowledge required for each of these is different. It would be foolish to require contractors to have any range time for their certificate and just as foolish to require a security guard to be aware of building code. The classroom time for each would depend upon the amount of information each needed to learn.
A CCW holder is not offering a service so there is no need to guarantee a customer reasonable service. Becoming knowledgeable of the functioning of firearms, safety procedures and the legal and moral aspects of self defense in the jurisdiction issuing the permit are all that is required. This minimal training might not be sufficient to insure the ability to defend oneself, but that is not the government's concern.
Further, the requirements to become a surgeon would be greater and stricter than all of the above and you won't find any guidelines on proper electrical wiring and the safe loading/unloading of revolvers vs semi-auto pistols contained in the requirements.
This is how it should be.
And disagree with TAB's views as I might and often heatedly, he still has a ton of knowledge, offers help when ever he can and can always be used as a bad example. ;D ;D He is stubborn as a mule and I think he has inhaled to much varnish over the years, but he has a place here.
-
On a lighter note, the woman with the purse has it for sale on e-bay to raise money for the security guard's charity ( a school sports program if I recall). The high bid stands at about $1200. If any of you haven't bought the GF a Christmas gift yet, here's your chance (though I'd reccomend adding either a couple of bricks or a Glock to accessorize with). ;D
FQ13 who thinks there was one hero there, though she could have thought things through a bit better.
PS local news has been all over this. The guard was upstairs in his office. It took him a few minutes to get downstairs and assess the situation. He figured out what was going on before just busting in. That seems reasonable. It also points to the need for CCW. Even IF a cop is in the building, he can't teleport. It takes him a while to get there. Once he does, he's going to figure out what's going on before kicking down the door. Response time is minutes even in an ideal world. You may only have seconds.
-
Ted is not a good example.
look into his past, there are some not pretty things.
also, he had a buddy swear him in has a LEO so he could legally carry in all 50 states. The guy needs to stick to rock and roll.
TAB,
Site your sources please. If they're a straight take on the "Wikipedia" page than I'll have to say BS. His womanizing is well documented and not a matter of concern for me personally. If you can't make a cogent argument to substantiate your position, then we'll just ignore your opinion.
-
TAB,
Site your sources please. If they're a straight take on the "Wikipedia" page than I'll have to say BS. His womanizing is well documented and not a matter of concern for me personally. If you can't make a cogent argument to substantiate your position, then we'll just ignore your opinion.
Even reading the Wiki page on TN, I can't find anything that I regard as "toxic".
Yeah, he chased skirts. So what? What did any of us do when were young and dumb and full of - spirit.
I have to say that I readily identify with Ted Nugent when it comes to SD and the right to own and carry. I prefer the libertarian view on such things, it's none of the governments business. He's not saying anything that hasn't already been said by the founders of our country. You are responsible for your own safety and the safety of your family. As true today as it was in the dawn of time.
While I may not call Heidi Prescott of the Fund for Animals a "worthless whore" and a "shallow slut," it could just be because I haven't met her yet.
-
Even reading the Wiki page on TN, I can't find anything that I regard as "toxic".
Yeah, he chased skirts. So what? What did any of us do when were young and dumb and full of - spirit.
Exactly and I haven't even read the Wiki site.
I find Wikipedia reprehensible in their inaccurate information. That, couple with the way websites get listed on Google and other search engines. Turns out the Wiki (or any other site) pays Google or Bing or Yahoo to get their site listed at the top of the list so that people are more likely to use the site.
It's not surprising so many HS and College kids are so misinformed. They take the easy way out and get their information from the internet rather than doing the REAL work to research, obtain the facts and make a reasoned decision as to their findings.
-
Exactly and I haven't even read the Wiki site.
I find Wikipedia reprehensible in their inaccurate information. That, couple with the way websites get listed on Google and other search engines. Turns out the Wiki (or any other site) pays Google or Bing or Yahoo to get their site listed at the top of the list so that people are more likely to use the site.
It's not surprising so many HS and College kids are so misinformed. They take the easy way out and get their information from the internet rather than doing the REAL work to research, obtain the facts and make a reasoned decision as to their findings.
Amen and amen. It was bad enough trying to explain that an encyclopedia was NOT, a source to be cited, just a place to go for background. Now, I have to spend an hour explaining the peer reviewy stem and defending it, even though it is riddled with politics and bias. Still, unless you are using either original sources or something that has been fact checked by an expert in the field (no matter how biased they may be, at least they know the basics), it has to be regarded with an asterisk at best. In some ways the net has made research vastly easier. Flip side? There is a whole lot of BS out there that folks who don't know that you don't beileve it until you read and check the foot notes will accept as gospel. It really is kind of scary how folks can cover up the truth far more effectively by presenting too much information rather than by denying information. :P
FQ13 rant over
-
Bottom line is that until TAB comes forward with his charges and sources, all I know of Ted is his infidelity. While that limits his chances of being a close personal friend, it does not discount his stance on the Second Amendment and self defense.
By the way, on the hunting regulation errors this past year - Check the background of professional hunters that travel several states and regions, and you will find a list of infractions. Our patchwork of regulations, many of which are not printed in states hunting handbooks, are easy to run a foul of when you are in that profession. Along with the lists of infractions, take a look at the way these professionals handle it by accepting responsibility, researching, paying up, and including it in their shows and/or writings.
-
Case in point. How many here might be Elvis Presley fans?
How many know he was a womanizing drug addict? Does it matter that those drugs were prescribed by a physician? How many tens of thousands of people visit Graceland every year unaware of the nature of Elvis? A role model, he wasn't!
Ted is a rock legend who stayed away from drugs and alcohol and the death spiral they cause. His personal life is none of my business. My best friend was made guardian of his future wife when she was 17 because of an alcoholic, abusive mother. Does that make him a bad guy? Circumstances are important and unless and until someone can gain access to those facts, STFU!
-
I've never found any major problems with Wikipedia.
It may be a little shallow but it makes a decent fast reference when I don't feel like spending hours searching out some piece of information, or I just want an overview of a subject.
Another thing that makes it a handy reference tool is that they usually have a "Further reading" list at the end.
As an example, here is Civil war information I found in 2 clicks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ships_of_the_Confederate_States_Navy
It is doubtful that the list includes every single vessel the served the Southern cause .
But type in what I'm looking for, one click on the search engine, one click on the Wiki entry, and I've got a fairly informative starting point.
-
I've never found any major problems with Wikipedia.
But type in what I'm looking for, one click on the search engine, one click on the Wiki entry, and I've got a fairly informative starting point.
Operative word.......
-
Operative word.......
And again, an amen. Wiki is fine for a board like this. Its also a great place to start for a serious research project. BUT!!!!!!!!!!! Hit those cites at the end, then look at their list of cites. A general rule thumb is this: When all the authors of say, five articles on the Confederate Navy, cite the same three or four books/articles, those are the ones you want to read. Then you do a cite search to see who cites them, then a further cite search to see who's citing those guys. Its quick and dirty, but it does give you an idea of who is setting the debate on the Confederate Navy. It lets you get an idea of the literature pretty quickly. Again, this is for more serious reearch than is demanded here, but its what I try to drill into my students' heads. Sadly, most look at me as though I'd smacked them with a dead mullet. "But its in a book/article/on the web, it must be true". ::)
FQ13 who notes that it is after noon on a Sunday so I can legally buy a beer. ;D
-
And your students would wonder why you hit them with a bad hair cut from the eighties instead of learning what a mullet really was!
It's Sunday, it's CT and I have to drive all the way to RI to buy beer or booze today...
About five minutes down the road!
;D ;D
-
It's Sunday and I'm wondering why folks are waiting to buy booze until they have run out......
-
It's Sunday and I'm wondering why folks are waiting to buy booze until they have run out......
Who said I ran out?
;)
-
Who said I ran out?
;)
Much like ammo, you can NEVER have too much.
-
Much like ammo, you can NEVER have too much.
when you are the guy that has to carry it, you damn well can have too much.