The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: alfsauve on December 20, 2010, 01:59:55 PM
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As we're talking about BATF investigating multiple gun sales, and about Mosin Nagant Rifles and Nagant Pistols....well I though I'd go ahead and apply for my C&R. I might as well, they got my number anyway.
So I'm looking over the list of C&R on the BATF web site as to what qualifies and what can be shipped directly to me.
Mosin Nagant Rifles
The Nagant Pistol that BillT was talking about.
What's interesting is how the manufacturers got BATF to put a lot of "collectibles" on the list. I mean these are guns that people are going to pay big bucks for many aren't likely to be fired.
There's the really historical single C&R's like:
Colt, Match Target Woodsman Semiautomatic Pistol, cal. .22LR., S/N 128866S, owned by Ernest
Hemingway.
There are a lot of special edition/commemorative but even the first couple of a new model like my S&W 624. The first 25 made where specially stamped "1985 nn" where nn is 1-25.
There are the "mistakes" "oppsies" like Colt 1911 MKIV 1970s that were mis-stamped with both "government" and "commander" markings.
The S&W Model 66 is even on the list.....welll some version of it are. The BATF version whose s/n start with "BATF" and have a small replica badge engraved on the side plate. Also the Navy Investigative Service (now NCIS) models.
If you want to know what "collectable" just look at this list. Just an interesting list.
I haven't waded through the updates yet. http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/curios-relics/ (http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/curios-relics/)
Oh all 500 Singer 1911 .45ACPs are C&R as well. Good luck on finding one of those.
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I think you'll find most of the guns that are shown in that way gain most of their value because of their association with an historical event, person, or some such. That's spelled out in the regs for the collectors license.
Pecos who didn't explain that very well.
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I believe that any firearm more than 50 years old qualifies. But it has to be "The gun it's self" not something they have been making for 50 years.
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Age is a criteria but it's not a given. I don't think the BATF will add a MODERN weapon to C&R just because it passed a certain age. It's got to have some Curious, collectible or Relic value.
For example all the Singer made 1911 45ACPs are C&R but I doubt you'll see generic 1911's (Colt, Remington, Ithaca) from the same period on the list. Also missing are original 1911s made by North American Arms. There were only 105 made. Probably means very few have survived are held so privately that no one has asked for C&R designation.
I've listed the criteria below. Any one of which MAY qualify. Criteria 2 & 3 carry a lot more weight than age.
1.) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas
thereof;
2.) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits
firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
3.) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are
novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of
qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value
and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector’s items, or that the value of like
firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.
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Age is a criteria but it's not a given. I don't think the BATF will add a MODERN weapon to C&R just because it passed a certain age. It's got to have some Curious, collectible or Relic value.
How do you think the CZ-82 made the list? I'm not complaining, mind you, but it does seem strange that the military/police (9x18) variant of a pistol still listed on the CZ catalog made it to the C&R list.
http://cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-83/
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Alf, I'm getting this 2nd hand, but it comes from a fairly reliable guy,
What he told me was that while many dealers are reluctant to do it, If the gun it's self is over 50 years old then it can be shipped to you the same as any other C&R. For example, it would not apply to a brand new model 700, but it would to one manufactured in 1959 or earlier.
I have not checked myself, but he said he verified this at the ATF website.
I'll ask him about it tonight at work and try to post more details.
CJ, I think it's on the list because the Communist era forces used it, which gives it a historical value as a Cold War relic.
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It has to be on the ATF C&R list and you have to have a C&R license, before it can be shipped or before you can recieve it. The only way around that is if it's classified as an antique (pre 1895) or if it is not classified as a firearm (muzzle loader, air gun).
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What he told me was that while many dealers are reluctant to do it, If the gun it's self is over 50 years old then it can be shipped to you the same as any other C&R. For example, it would not apply to a brand new model 700, but it would to one manufactured in 1959 or earlier.
MODIFIED
DISREGARD FIRST VERSION OF THIS POST
I didn't read far enough.
Yes, if it's over 50 years old AND in original configuration. Doesn't have to be listed.
From ATF Web site: http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/curios-relics/ (http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/curios-relics/)
Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF’s C&R list. Therefore, ATF does not generally list firearms in the C&R publication by virtue of their age.
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My C&R expired in Oct and I didn't renew it as I need to slow down on my purchases.
I think I'm still going through withdrawal. Does anyone have a cure?
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My C&R expired in Oct and I didn't renew it as I need to slow down on my purchases.
I think I'm still going through withdrawal. Does anyone have a cure?
Its like the old addiction cures from the turn of the century. They had this great stuff to cure drug dependency, it was only 50% opium. Worked like a charm. ;D I'd reccomend getting off the moisin jag by trying some 8mm mausers. Think of it as the niccorette of firearms. ;)
FQ13
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Alf, I double checked with the guy at work, he confirmed that it is on the ATF website and the site also says eligible fire arms include, BUT ARE NOT LIMITED TO, the guns on the list.
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Alf, I double checked with the guy at work, he confirmed that it is on the ATF website and the site also says eligible fire arms include, BUT ARE NOT LIMITED TO, the guns on the list.
Probably read the early and bogus version of my post Tom. I've corrected my erroneous statements and concur with your friend. I posted the link to the ATF web site and the quote. Here it is again:
Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF’s C&R list. Therefore, ATF does not generally list firearms in the C&R publication by virtue of their age.
I guess I'm having difficulty believing the ATF would be so lenient.
Shoot this opens up even more "vistas".
Posted by: david86440
My C&R expired in Oct and I didn't renew it as I need to slow down on my purchases.
I think I'm still going through withdrawal. Does anyone have a cure?
I've got to do my part to help David. Must buy up all C&R's before he sees them.
Alf <-- Can I roll this mistake over to 2011? I've already made too many this year.
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Sorry Alf, I just went to the end of the thread and wrote, But Hey, it was 2:45 AM, give me a break ;D
The problem with the 50 year old rule is that you need to verify by serial number that the specific item was made before 1959. Many sellers do not want to be bothered with the extra work.
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No need to apologize, Tom. It was I who posted before I had all the facts.
On a model that's on the cusp, I can understand the reluctance, but something from WWI or WWII should be pretty clear.
BAD BAD, Alf. Already looking at "antique" auctions.
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Alf,
Make sure you do NOT sign the original! Make copies and keep the original in a safe place as dealers have to have an original signature.
I have a list where you can send your license to get on their mailing list (SOG, etc) and even Midway and Cabellas will give you a 10% dealer dealer discount.
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Thanks, Haz. Just encourage me to spend more money that I don't have.
10% you say?
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My C&R expired in Oct and I didn't renew it as I need to slow down on my purchases.
I think I'm still going through withdrawal. Does anyone have a cure?
I slowed down on my purchases, but still maintain the license, much like hanging on to my commercial DL. Just in case.
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a cdl can be a usefull thing... more so around moving time... you can rent a comm'l truck that wieghs more then 26kgvwr
Not to mention it looks good on job apps. I have my cdl with hazmat, no air brakes :'( I wish I had gotton air brakes...
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Its like a Captain's licence, you can rent whatever boat boat you want, well worth the fees. A CCW is same deal. Even if you never carry, you avoid the wait and have an affirmative defense if you ever get pulled over. Sometimes, the bureacratic BS is worth it.
FQ13
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There are a lot of special edition/commemorative Oh all 500 Singer 1911 .45ACPs are C&R as well.
(http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz50/billt460/ColtGoldCupNRAEdition.jpg)
My Colt Gold Cup NRA Commemorative is also on the list. That kind of surprised me. Bill T.
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Billt, I did not look but I'm pretty sure that because of being limited editions most "Commemorative" models are eligible.
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Billt, I did not look but I'm pretty sure that because of being limited editions most "Commemorative" models are eligible.
I think you're right. This would include all of those gaudy, gold plated, engraved 1911's commemorating everything from Mr. Cleans Birthday, to the Elvis fried Peanut Butter Sandwich Edition, you see being sold every month in those full page ads in a lot of the gun rags. Bill T.
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I think you're right. This would include all of those gaudy, gold plated, engraved 1911's commemorating everything from Mr. Cleans Birthday, to the Elvis fried Peanut Butter Sandwich Edition, you see being sold every month in those full page ads in a lot of the gun rags. Bill T.
Hey, at least you save the $30 transfer fee, (although you'd still be ashamed to take them to the range). ;D I don't understand why people buy those things. My grandad got me a Bank of Boulder special. It was a Weatherby Mark V with a burled walnut Montecarlo stock with a high gloss finish done up with a gold trigger. It shot ok, but honestly, I felt like I'd escaped from a French whorehouse everytime I brought the thing out. It got traded for a Ruger M77 with a plain walnut straight stock and I have never regretted it. Maybe its just me, but I hate flash on guns. I think plain lines and good craftsmanship are beautiful. You can keep the engraved wood nymphs and gold plate. I'd rather have case colors and either a deep blue or parkerized finish.
FQ13
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I kind of agree with FQ as to preference for clean DEPENDABLE firearms with nice lines, but OTOH if some one gave me a Thompson I would not care if it commemorated Baby's first solid turd ;D
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I kind of agree with FQ as to preference for clean DEPENDABLE firearms with nice lines, but OTOH if some one gave me a Thompson I would not care if it commemorated Baby's first solid turd ;D
;D
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;D
hey! that almost fits with 'the best beer is free beer' on one of the other threads! ;D
you can't beat free/cheap.
deepwater
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hey! that almost fits with 'the best beer is free beer' on one of the other threads! ;D
you can't beat free/cheap.
deepwater
As I said on that thread, yeah, you can. :-[ Free/cheap is nice. Well made and reliable is better. I don't care if its Shiner Bock vs Miller's answer to Zima or a gold plated travesty versus a plain jane Ruger/Glock/1911 (or insert your brand here). You get what what you pay for. The same applies to free and cheap. I've been there and done that, and honestly, I'd rather pay for what I want than get a POS for free. 8)
FQ13 who is sadder, older and wiser and knows that there is no such thing as free in this world. One way or another, you pay. Better it be on the thing you really want.
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Ask TAB, Free is better when talking guns ;D
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As I said on that thread, yeah, you can. :-[ Free/cheap is nice. Well made and reliable is better. I don't care if its Shiner Bock vs Miller's answer to Zima or a gold plated travesty versus a plain jane Ruger/Glock/1911 (or insert your brand here). You get what what you pay for. The same applies to free and cheap. I've been there and done that, and honestly, I'd rather pay for what I want than get a POS for free. 8)
FQ13 who is sadder, older and wiser and knows that there is no such thing as free in this world. One way or another, you pay. Better it be on the thing you really want.
dude, you need to quit dealing with Egyptians. ;D
deepwater
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dude, you need to quit dealing with Egyptians. ;D
deepwater
???
FQ13
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FQ13 who is sadder, older and wiser and knows that there is no such thing as free in this world.
One time I tried to reduce the basic rules of life down to a dozen cute acronyms. This is one of them.
NFL - No Free Lunch
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I'm just wondering, what does it take for a gun to be a C&R?
I know there is a age factor, but what else?
PS yes I know I could go to the ATF site and fight out, but I'm bored.
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dude, you need to quit dealing with Egyptians. ;D
deepwater
???
FQ13
FQ, in an earlier thread Deepwater made the comment that Egyptian's were the worst scam artists in the world, His exact words were "even if they give you something free they are screwing you somehow".
Also, Heinlein had something similar, TANSTAAFL, There ain't no such thing as a free lunch, It was the motto of a deep space habitat in "The Cat who Walks Through Walls"
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I'm just wondering, what does it take for a gun to be a C&R?
Here you go, Tab. It was on the first page, but I'll gladly repost it. The 50 year rule doesn't require a special ruling, but all other guns you have to submit paper work explaining why it would fit in categories 2 &3. Most of the limited edition guns from the major manufacturers are listed. Like say the '94 Winchester John Wayne, ec.
1.) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas
thereof;
2.) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits
firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
3.) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are
novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of
qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value
and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector’s items, or that the value of like
firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.