The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: twyacht on December 24, 2010, 05:30:35 AM
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Feel free to read this article, and post a reply back to this asshat.
http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/12/yankee-gun-nuts/the-1911-sucks/comment-page-1/#comment-14785
Not the complete article, but a portion:
The 1911 Sucks
Posted on December 23, 2010 by Yankee Gun Nuts
I have said it before and I will end up saying it again: the 1911 an old design that is more trouble than it is worth. I don’t say it to be confrontational, or to draw attention to myself. I say it because I see my fellow shooters mindlessly parroting the gun equivalent of Chuck Norris Facts whenever the 1911 comes up in conversation, and I just don’t get it. I am not surprised that the 1911 is out of place in today’s world, and you shouldn’t be surprised either. What other 100-year old design is still in daily use? In the comment section of another blog, I summarized my skepticism of the 1911′s attributes thusly:
It’s a 100-year old design. It needs tools to disassemble. It has unreliable magazines. It is finicky about ammo. And, as a single-action pistol, it is unsafe for 95% of its users to carry.
In my original complaint, I forgot to mention the issue with slide-stop failures, and the whole internal extractor/external extractor situation. Either of which would be serious enough to kill any other design’s reputation in the shooting world.
In response to some knee-jerk defenses of the 1911 from fanboys who drank too much John M. Browning Kool-Aid, who told me how all that I needed to do was buy a bunch of aftermarket parts and send the gun to a gunsmith, I added:
Why does a reliable 1911 cost so much, and need so much gunsmithing?
*****
Should have known, coming from "Yankee Gun Nut"..... Some of the comments left already, are pretty good.
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Lmao,I just posted a blistering commentary of my own on his stupidity.My closing comment on how I heard unsupported stupidity in junior high I think hits the taget right in the bulls eye.
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Lmao,I just posted a blistering commentary of my own on his stupidity.My closing comment on how I heard unsupported stupidity in junior high I think hits the taget right in the bulls eye.
Good reply, DZ. The guy does sound a 'bit' ::) immature, especially in his reply to comments. On here we'd just call him a troll.
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yep yep yep merry christmas all
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And all of you just read his column, probably for the first time. Methinks that Yankee may be counting site hits. ;)
FQ13
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My desire to read that article is rivaled only by my desire to watch MSNBC. :P
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I wont waste my time on him...................MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL ;D
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It’s a 100-year old design. It needs tools to disassemble. It has unreliable magazines. It is finicky about ammo.
Hmmm...his must be different than mine.
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Adressed his reply to my reply..lmao this guy really is a tool.
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Probably thinks the Winchester Model 94 is a POS.
It fires an antique under powered round and is more than 100 years old.
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Adressed his reply to my reply..lmao this guy really is a tool.
And yet, he got you to visit his site at least twice. Just sayin'. ;D
FQ13
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I agree with you Fighting Quaker. It is a nice gun to shoot when it works, but it has been in production for 100 years with that in mind the following comments should apply:
1.Colt has made them longer than anyone they should have the best one-they do not
2. after 100 years it should work flawlessly out of the box at a reasonable price-it doesnt
3. if you have to change a bunch of parts to make it reliable, is it really the same gun?
4. Generally speaking a 1911 is not as durable as modern guns
I could go on but I think I have made my point....
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I agree with you Fighting Quaker. It is a nice gun to shoot when it works, but it has been in production for 100 years with that in mind the following comments should apply:
1.Colt has made them longer than anyone they should have the best one-they do not
2. after 100 years it should work flawlessly out of the box at a reasonable price-it doesnt
3. if you have to change a bunch of parts to make it reliable, is it really the same gun?
4. Generally speaking a 1911 is not as durable as modern guns
I could go on but I think I have made my point....
No you haven't.
Colt has nothing to do with as Singer, Remington, and other manufacturers all made them as COMBAT WEAPONS.
What is the ratio of out of the box flawlessness with other "modern pistols"?
I didn't have to change one part to make mine reliable, and yes it is the same gun.
Your point #4, is an oxymoron....uh, what model gun is it? 1911? Durable?
I expected someone with the name GI Joe to understand that. What do you think "GI Joe" carried?
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I expected someone with the name GI Joe to understand that. What do you think "GI Joe" carried?
Lately? A Beretta. ;D
FQ13
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I agree FQ,I'm done with that idiot,I've been shooting for 48 years while he's probably nothing more than a desk jockey.
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Yes, evolution has the modern soldier with an M9 Beretta. Shame Americans using Italian pistols seems rather sad. I know its a fine pistol, it still seems sad.
:-\ If my Grandfather were still alive, he would remind me, that it was Americans that won over Italy..... Just don't see Patton or MacArthur with a Beretta.
;)
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I've owned both but my 1911 is still with me. The 92 I had was sold long before the military adopted it. I'm not going to debate "the best" anything. Mine works, nuf said.
The best carry gun is the one you have on you when you need it!
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I agree with you Fighting Quaker. It is a nice gun to shoot when it works, but it has been in production for 100 years with that in mind the following comments should apply:
1.Colt has made them longer than anyone they should have the best one-they do not actually for "stock guns" they do make one of the best.
2. after 100 years it should work flawlessly out of the box at a reasonable price-it doesnt The only issues I've ever had with 1911, where not with true 1911, they were guns that called themselfs 1911s.
3. if you have to change a bunch of parts to make it reliable, is it really the same gun? never had a issuse with reliabllity with 1911, I can't say that about other modern guns that are known for reliablity4. Generally speaking a 1911 is not as durable as modern guns I disagree with that. I seen many 1911s go into the several 100sk round count with the only replacment parts being main springs
I could go on but I think I have made my point....
The guy in the blog is looking for hits, nothing more. that or he has been main lining glock kool aid.
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Lately? A Beretta. ;D
FQ13
Then why is the military looking at replacements again (some of them 1911s)?
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Then why is the military looking at replacements again (some of them 1911s)?
Because the Beretta sucks compared to other comparable pistols (IMHO), and 9mm isn't enough gun for combat? ;). I mean its a fine round for civilian carry, but if I were made the Army's pistol Tsar for one day, the troops would be carrying Glocks in .45 or 10mm. Its idiot proof, reliable, affordable, high capacity and in either 10 mm or .45, as close to a man stopper as you are going to get in a pistol.a
FQ13
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Because the Beretta sucks compared to other comparable pistols (IMHO), and 9mm isn't enough gun for combat? ;). I mean its a fine round for civilian carry, but if I were made the Army's pistol Tsar for one day, the troops would be carrying Glocks in .45 or 10mm. Its idiot proof, reliable, affordable, high capacity and in either 10 mm or .45, as close to a man stopper as you are going to get in a pistol.a
FQ13
I think you will find it was a matter of logistics. Almost everyone in NATO was using 9mm pistols so we changed over to keep a common ammo. Likewise when we adopted the 5.56 cartridge, NATO countries began to field rifles in the same caliber.
We picked the Berretta because there was a small savings per pistol over the Sig. When that is mulitpled by a few hundred thousand pistols, someone in procurement can claim a huge savings.
So everytime you piss and moan about using a 9mm pistol remember there is some poor Brit or German carrying a poodle shooter because of Uncle Sam. ;D
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There is absolutly nothing wrong with a beretta. It is an utterly reliable gun, so is the Sig. They both require a little maintenence. The problem is 124 gr ball ammo. A good hollow point would correct that problem.
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I will note in advance that I'm mostly a .357 Mag revolver guy.
I have a Rock Island 1911 I paid $360 for that has been 100% right out of the box for nearly 2000 rounds, all of which went exactly where I put them even with JMB's less than ideal sights. And steel will always be more durable than plastic except to a dumbass.
So all the 1911 bashers can KMA.
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I will note in advance that I'm mostly a .357 Mag revolver guy.
I have a Rock Island 1911 I paid $360 for that has been 100% right out of the box for nearly 2000 rounds, all of which went exactly where I put them even with JMB's less than ideal sights. And steel will always be more durable than plastic except to a dumbass.So all the 1911 bashers can KMA.
I agree with your first point. The rust buckets are a good gun. As to steel being more durable than plastic? Survey says no. Its strong, rustproof and every bit as tough and stronger pound for pound. Obviously this has limits, which is why the moving parts are metal. Still, there's a reason body armor isn't made of metal anymore. ;) Frankly, I'd carry a 1911 as a duty piece anytime, and I'd love to buy (someday) a basic 1911 like the Rock Island. But for me, DAO is the way to go. A gun designed for combat should first be made to work all the time. Second, you make it as easy to maintain in the field as posible. Third you remove anything that can possibly go wrong that isn't neccesary to the essential function. Steps 2 and 3 are where for me, the various tupperware DAOs are preferable to the 1911s. Still, thats just me. YMMV.
FQ13
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I agree with your first point. The rust buckets are a good gun. As to steel being more durable than plastic? Survey says no. Its strong, rustproof and every bit as tough and stronger pound for pound. Obviously this has limits, which is why the moving parts are metal. Still, there's a reason body armor isn't made of metal anymore. ;) Frankly, I'd carry a 1911 as a duty piece anytime, and I'd love to buy (someday) a basic 1911 like the Rock Island. But for me, DAO is the way to go. A gun designed for combat should first be made to work all the time. Second, you make it as easy to maintain in the field as posible. Third you remove anything that can possibly go wrong that isn't neccesary to the essential function. Steps 2 and 3 are where for me, the various tupperware DAOs are preferable to the 1911s. Still, thats just me. YMMV.
FQ13
Apparently it does. ;D
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I agree with your first point. The rust buckets are a good gun. As to steel being more durable than plastic? Survey says no. Its strong, rustproof and every bit as tough and stronger pound for pound. Obviously this has limits, which is why the moving parts are metal. Still, there's a reason body armor isn't made of metal anymore. ;) Frankly, I'd carry a 1911 as a duty piece anytime, and I'd love to buy (someday) a basic 1911 like the Rock Island. But for me, DAO is the way to go. A gun designed for combat should first be made to work all the time. Second, you make it as easy to maintain in the field as posible. Third you remove anything that can possibly go wrong that isn't neccesary to the essential function. Steps 2 and 3 are where for me, the various tupperware DAOs are preferable to the 1911s. Still, thats just me. YMMV.
FQ13
Not to argue with you this time, FQ, because you make a valid point. Just adding my own personal mileage as a continuation of your thoughts.....
I'd rather didassemble a 1911 than any other gun I own. They are not that complicated. Simplistic in their genious. You can totally disassemble it without tools using the parts of the gun itself as 'tools'.
If you don't load them down with the latest gizmo and tactical do-dad of the moment, they will go bang every time if used as the designer intended.
Use the gun as it was designed.
I trust my Glock as much as I do any of my 1911's.....(it is my primary CCW gun these days due to size)....even though my Glock hasn't been tested over the same period of time as my 1911's.....that being said, I love my 1911's.....my Glock is just a tool.
8)
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"I don’t say it to be confrontational, or to draw attention to myself."
That is precisely why he said it, and exactly what he did. This is nothing more than the ravings of a typical bored mall ninja with a hormone problem. They're all over ARFCOM and m4Kool-Aid.net. These guys are usually late teens to early 30's something cool jerks. They're getting easier and easier to pick out. Usually because they make silly stupid comments like what this guy did. It's usually the only way they can get any attention, simply because they don't know anything worth listening to. So they try to garner an audience for themselves by trying to raise every one's blood pressure. They are smart enough to know a fist can't come through a monitor.
They will always bash older designs, while at the same time go on another thread and slobber over some guys "retro build". They contradict themselves, many times in the same thread. A 1911 has to be made right. Many cheaper ones aren't. But you can say that about any design.
It's a big pistol, but so is the M-9. The M-9 holds more ammo, but so does an M-16 compared to the Garand, and we've yet to win a war with it. And even the ammo capacity issue has been addressed with the double stack Para guns. I can understand why someone would not prefer the gun, but to say "It is unsafe for 95% of it's users to carry", is pure stupidity, and shows he doesn't even understand the design itself, or how it operates. Another thing is if the design is so poor and dangerous, why is it the standard platform most every Bianchi Cup Race Gun is built off of?
He then goes on to slam Jeff Cooper. What was the purpose of that if not to set even more people off? He knows that most of the people who like and prefer the 1911 also like Jeff Coopers words about it. So why not piss them off even more by slamming not only the gun, but one of it's biggest supporters? This guy reads like a woman picking a fight because it's "that time of the month". The worst thing you can do is get pulled into it. Much like a woman on the rag, they are best left alone until their hormones re stabilize. Personally I'd rather try to deprime Berdan cases with my teeth, than give this asshat the time of day. Bill T.
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If you don't load them down with the latest gizmo and tactical do-dad of the moment, they will go bang every time if used as the designer intended.
Use the gun as it was designed.
And THAT is it in a nutshell. My first post on this forum way back some years ago said basically the same thing. This design was created to WORK and was designed loosely, for easy dis-assembly and cleaning and to work with a bit of crud. It was never made for bulls-eye competition.
The biggest problem with the 1911 is the PEOPLE who aren't satisfied with something that works and f..k it up by "improving" it!
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I agree, "The 1911 Sucks" Anyone wishing to get rid of any 1911 PM me and I will send my address. I will be sure to see they get what they deserve!
Richard
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The 1911 is the finest handgun ever made, bar none. Have owned many over the years, have a couple now, a Kimber and a Colt, which both have worked first time, every time, out of the box. The guy keeps complaining it is a 100 year old design. Exactly. And it is still going strong. Speaks for itself.
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The Gatling gun is a 150 year old design and that seems to be working OK ;D
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My RIA and R1 were both jam-free out of the box. My AO, not so much. Purdy shure it will break in with a few more rounds.
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BillT has it right...I'd rather deprime Berdan ammo with my teeth! LOL!
To be sure, you get more traffic with controversy than petting kittens...reminds me of when I used to do music reviews...the editors would hire me because I excelled in nasty/snarky/funny and could make artists cry. One morning it dawned on me that I was turning myself into a, ahem, asshole for hire, so I stopped.
About 1911s, you guys have pretty much said it all...I bought 4 of the damn things this year — the Para GI Expert that got turned into the retro 1911A1, a Remington R1, a Colt Rail Gun and another one we'll be talking about later. The Remington, the Colt and the other one have all been 100% out of the box, and that includes a LOT of rounds through them all. I talked about the Para problems earlier this year, sent it back and it was 100% thereafter. Pretty much like a Glock.
FQ, sometimes there's an apples/oranges issue when we compare 1911s to modern polymer-framed service pistols. To wit, we compare a generic 1911 to a Glock, where the more correct thing to do would be to compare a generic 1911 to a generic plastic frame pistol (and there are a few floating around, like a Hi-Point or an FMK). I imagine you'd find pretty much the same levels of quality.
If you look at my father's 1911A1 Remington Rand, you see a combat pistol with all the attributes you outline...works all the time with the ammo it was designed for, can be disassembled by a poodle and all the mission-critical parts can be replaced in the field. People like me took that gun, made it more complicated, less reliable and available with tail fins and racing stripes.
And Col. Cooper and I had our differences, but more times than not he was right, I was wrong.
Michael B
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BillT has it right...I'd rather deprime Berdan ammo with my teeth! LOL!
To be sure, you get more traffic with controversy than petting kittens...reminds me of when I used to do music reviews...the editors would hire me because I excelled in nasty/snarky/funny and could make artists cry. One morning it dawned on me that I was turning myself into a, ahem, asshole for hire, so I stopped.
About 1911s, you guys have pretty much said it all...I bought 4 of the damn things this year — the Para GI Expert that got turned into the retro 1911A1, a Remington R1, a Colt Rail Gun and another one we'll be talking about later. The Remington, the Colt and the other one have all been 100% out of the box, and that includes a LOT of rounds through them all. I talked about the Para problems earlier this year, sent it back and it was 100% thereafter. Pretty much like a Glock.
FQ, sometimes there's an apples/oranges issue when we compare 1911s to modern polymer-framed service pistols. To wit, we compare a generic 1911 to a Glock, where the more correct thing to do would be to compare a generic 1911 to a generic plastic frame pistol (and there are a few floating around, like a Hi-Point or an FMK). I imagine you'd find pretty much the same levels of quality.
If you look at my father's 1911A1 Remington Rand, you see a combat pistol with all the attributes you outline...works all the time with the ammo it was designed for, can be disassembled by a poodle and all the mission-critical parts can be replaced in the field. People like me took that gun, made it more complicated, less reliable and available with tail fins and racing stripes.
And Col. Cooper and I had our differences, but more times than not he was right, I was wrong.
Michael B
I would never have guessed you would 'excel' at 'nasty/snarky'! ::)
;D
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HA! I sense sarcasm!
I once wrote a review of a woman country music artist's newest album (remember "albums?") where all I mentioned was her dress, or lack of it, on the cover...it was a great cover...I think at the end of the review I added something like, "Oh yeah, the music sucked..." The editor nearly wept with joy...
Is this "thread creep?"
mb
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HA! I sense sarcasm!
I once wrote a review of a woman country music artist's newest album (remember "albums?") where all I mentioned was her dress, or lack of it, on the cover...it was a great cover...I think at the end of the review I added something like, "Oh yeah, the music sucked..." The editor nearly wept with joy...
Is this "thread creep?"
mb
Nope! I'm proud to say it's full out....
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p78/hazcater/Fun%20Stuff/Threaddrift.jpg)
;D ;D
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:) Back on topic check this out! Kimber BP Ten II. I never feel short on caliber or ammo with eleven rounds of .45 ACP.
(http://)
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The only part I did agree with in the article was that Colt dropped the ball in 1911 quality. Back in Colt's "bad old days" (when Colt was the big boy in 1911 production), they let their QC slip horribly. I remember when just about every Colt 1911 had to take a trip to a gunsmith just to get ball ammo to feed 100%. Then, when other companies (Kimber, Para, STI, etc.) started making excellent 1911's at competitive prices, Colt folded. When Colt was acquired by an administration that wanted to make quality firearms, then Colt products started to reclaim their place as top 1911 makers. Today...well, I'll let Mr. Bane tell you about Colt quality.... 8)
1911 vs. Beretta: Both guns are great for what they are....1911's are the best of the SA autos, and Beretta 92's are excellent TDA autos. I'd prefer that the US Military look long and hard at replacing the TDA autos with a polymer DAO design like the Springfield XD...but that's just me....
9mm vs. .45ACP: Not that big a deal, IMHO. Both do the job they're designed for. I do think that, since the 9mm round fired from a large pistol is pretty gentle recoil-wise, it allows more hits per target in a quicker time than the .45ACP---probably why some people think the 9mm is less of a stopper than the .45ACP (you can put more 9mm bullets in the BG before he falls quicker than you can with a .45ACP). If we want to give soldiers a more effective round, maybe we should look hard at the 10mm or the 9x25 Dillion....hard to beat .357Mag ballistics.... ;D
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9mm vs. .45ACP: Not that big a deal, IMHO. Both do the job they're designed for.
Here I agree. 25 years ago, before we had the all but perfect performing bullets we have today, the .45 ACP had a major advantage over the 9 MM. Today, that gap has been closed to an almost non existent difference. Yes, the .45 ACP bullets today perform even better, but it's hard to go beyond dead. Modern self defense ammunition makes the 9 MM a much better stopper than it was in years past. Good bullets that reliably expand almost 100% of the time, have really leveled the playing field on these 2 cartridges. Bill T.
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Come on guys, I watched a movie the other day and darn near every bad guy died on the first round from a 9mm Glock! You mean that ain't real life? A few of 'em flew several feet after being shot!
;D
Angelina looked pretty though!
;)
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9mm vs .45 ?
My reason for going with the .45 is that the only Semi Auto I wanted was a 1911, and let's face it, no matter what the design or mechanics, if it isn't .45ACP it isn't really a 1911. ;D
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Here I agree. 25 years ago, before we had the all but perfect performing bullets we have today, the .45 ACP had a major advantage over the 9 MM. Today, that gap has been closed to an almost non existent difference. Yes, the .45 ACP bullets today perform even better, but it's hard to go beyond dead. Modern self defense ammunition makes the 9 MM a much better stopper than it was in years past. Good bullets that reliably expand almost 100% of the time, have really leveled the playing field on these 2 cartridges. Bill T.
Which is why the military should either go to a JHP round or a larger caliber. I never have understood the ban on JHP ammo. We can napalm them but shooting them with a hollow point is inhumane? WTF?
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Which is why the military should either go to a JHP round or a larger caliber. I never have understood the ban on JHP ammo. We can napalm them but shooting them with a hollow point is inhumane? WTF?
Idiocy in purest form. At the time of the Hague Convention in 1899 modern weaponry was offending the sensibilities of folks. Like gun control advocates, they blamed the tools. "Let's make war more "humane" by limiting the lethality of munitions." Gee, what a great idea. Then we can fight longer with more troops. ::) Colin Powell put it best when he said (I'm paraphrasing) "The great inhumanity of war is the condition of war itself. The most humane thing one can do is bring the war to its swiftest possible conclusion using all available means". I say the man had a good point.
FQ13
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I don't get a lot of it either. Aren't shotguns banned because of either the Hague or Geneva Conventions? We've always had shotguns in war??? Bill T.
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Idiocy in purest form. At the time of the Hague Convention in 1899 modern weaponry was offending the sensibilities of folks. Like gun control advocates, they blamed the tools. "Let's make war more "humane" by limiting the lethality of munitions." Gee, what a great idea. Then we can fight longer with more troops. ::) Colin Powell put it best when he said (I'm paraphrasing) "The great inhumanity of war is the condition of war itself. The most humane thing one can do is bring the war to its swiftest possible conclusion using all available means". I say the man had a good point.
FQ13
The reason Gatling ( a doctor ) invented his gun was on the theory that if fewer men could put out more fire there would be less loss to disease, which, until fairly modern times always killed more than were killed in actual combat.
An argument in favor of automatic weapons from the Gatling till WWI was that it would make war "too ghastly to contemplate".
It is a historically verifiable fact that "brutal" direct assaults always kill fewer people than long drawn out engagements such as sieges.
It is interesting to note that the horror of the Atomic Bombs dropped on Japan killed far fewer than were killed by conventional bombing of Germany. The firebombing of Dresden killed as many as died in Hiroshima.
The Hague Conventions banning of certain types of ammo was a response to the use by England against the Boer's of a new soft point bullet made in the Arsenal at Dum Dum in India, hence the reference to dum dum bullets.
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Thanks for citing the correct convention FQ, most people attribute jacketed rounds to the Geneva!
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The firebombing of Dresden killed as many as died in Hiroshima.
As did General Curtis LeMay when he firebombed Tokyo when he took over the B-29 Bombing campaign from Timien Island. Bill T.
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Now that Guncrafters has the 1911 in 50 cal. isn't the .45 doomed? LOL
Richard
PS: ok69...just 11? Get a Para with Dawson extensions and have 19 rounds of .45! Oh yea, don't forget the too tight belt and heavyduty suspenders too!
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Now that Guncrafters has the 1911 in 50 cal. isn't the .45 doomed? LOL
Richard
PS: ok69...just 11? Get a Para with Dawson extensions and have 19 rounds of .45! Oh yea, don't forget the too tight belt and heavyduty suspenders too!
That describes alla my belts! :-[
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My full sized Para takes 15-round mags that only stick out about 1/4". So it has nearly the capacity of a wonder-nine in a package that isn't much bigger. The alloy frame makes the fully loaded pistol weigh the same as a standard 1911. What's not to like?
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As did General Curtis LeMay when he firebombed Tokyo when he took over the B-29 Bombing campaign from Timien Island. Bill T.
I wasn't sure on those numbers Bill, thanks for mentioning it.
I do know that effectiveness of LeMay's bombing missions were measured in square miles of destruction.
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Why does a reliable 1911 cost so much, and need so much gunsmithing?
I think somebody forgot to tell that to my RIA Commander. ;)
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Probably thinks the Winchester Model 94 is a POS.
It fires an antique under powered round and is more than 100 years old.
Yes, it fires an underpowered round, haha, lmao, but it sure takes the deer down nicely for an old gun.
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:) Back on topic check this out! Kimber BP Ten II. I never feel short on caliber or ammo with eleven rounds of .45 ACP.
(http://)
11? I have a 13 round mag and 2 14 rounders for my BP Ten. My dad's been carrying it now that it's coat weather. Along with the neutered capacity 10 rounder.... But it's got to be one of my favorite 1911's ever. ;D I hate that there's no way to put laser grips on it though.
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:o Holy cow! The design is old but proven. This guy sounds ignorant and trolling for comments. No really worth the energy to respond to such non-sense.