The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: unique on February 23, 2008, 11:24:57 AM
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We carry guns with hi capacity magazines in case of a prolonged gun battle or multiple attackers. We practice shooting weak handed in case our strong hand is disabled. We're ready for the “big one”.
It seems to me though, that 99.9% of us will never shoot a gun in self defense. 90% of us will never even draw a weapon. I'm not suggesting we don't need to carry, but I am suggesting that it might benefit us to know how a “close encounter” might really happen.
I've been carrying a gun off and on for forty years now and in that time I've had four “encounters”. The first one was what you might expect actually kind of boring, the second, well let's say it was odd. The third even “odder”, and the forth, well that one still puts knots in my stomach even after over twenty years. In that one I almost killed someone who, as it turned out, was just plain stupid, or more accurately, stupid drunk.
In any event, they weren't like anything I had read about or could even imagine.
I'd really like to hear what first hand experiences others have had, and I really think it would help all of us prepare for the “unknown”.
Here's my first, I'll post the rest as replies to this topic.
It was the in the middle of the winter and I was working the 3:00 to 11:00 shift at a company in the inner city.
One night we were in the cafeteria, one of the night security guards and I, just taking a break. One of the workers there was obviously a drug user and very strung out that night. For some reason he decided to take his anger out on me. He came to our table and started calling me names and saying things like “you're really a jerk” and I, being more than a little cocky back then, just agreed with him. The more he called me names and the more I agreed with him, the madder he got. Finally the guard broke it up and we left, I didn't think any more of it.
Walking to the bus stop that night, he stepped out if the shadows, he had a knife. What he didn't know was I had a derringer in my mitten (mittens are not very manly, but a great way to carry a derringer). When I didn't cower, he really got confused, but we talked and I managed to calm him down. Finally he decided I wasn't such a bad guy and walked away. While I didn't “need” the gun, having it gave me the confidence to work through the situation, I knew I had an option if talking didn't work.
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In martial arts we learn that the best defense is to just walk away... avoid the conflict. I hope I never have to use either my empty hand technique or my hand full of kick ass option.
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Yeah, I was young and cocky, hope I'm smarter than that now.
Art
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My second “close encounter” was a bit odd. I was still working the 3:00-11:00 and taking the bus. After leaving my stop, the bus went to what the drivers called the “last round up” at Main and Clinton. I usually was the only passenger, and I sat up front across from the driver. When we reached Main and Clinton, the driver opened the doors and we waited until it was time to leave. That night a middle-aged black man rushed onto the bus and crouched down between the driver an me. When writers say “his eyes were as big as saucers” I knew then what they meant. He was shouting something about they were after him, they were going to kill him. The driver got a look of fear on his face, said “I'll go get some help” and took off, leaving the two of us alone, the bus door open. So there we sat, my new “friend” happy to be sitting on the floor next to me while I kept looking out the bus windows wondering where his “friends” were. Several long minutes later the driver came back with the police and they took the man away. Again, I didn't need a gun, but it was really reassuring to have one
My next encounter was probably the strangest. I was working as building manager for a small company that owned an old five story building in the inner city. Part of my job was to respond to burglar alarms. It took me close to a half an hour to respond, so usually the police had come and gone by the time I got there.
This time I got there and as usual, checked all the exterior doors to make sure they were locked, then went in the front door and proceeded to search the building. I searched the upper floors first, since we rented spaces out and most of the alarms came from tenants not following procedures. After checking the upper floors I checked our own area. I was walking through the production area when I spotted movement. The lights were off except for a light at the back staircase, the only illumination there was came from the street lights outside. Whoever it was didn't see me, so I just drew my gun and waited in the shadows for him to walk into the light. He either didn't have or wasn't using a flashlight, and was just wandering around, picking things up and setting them back down again. As he walked towards the light I was ready. In the light, I discovered it was a city policeman. He still hadn't seen me, so I holstered my gun and called out to him. Seems he was a little slow in responding, found the front door open and decided to “investigate”.
Another lesson learned.
My first encounter taught me not to mess with people I didn't know, just be polite and walk away. This one reminded me that I wasn't the police, when I saw movement I should have just gone back downstairs and called 911. But I was young and like so many people I've encountered over the years, when you carry a gun it's all too easy to start thinking your like a cop, and that can get you into serious trouble.
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My first time bringing a weapon up and aiming it at some one was in the Philipines three days before they ousted Marcos. I was guarding and Ammo Depot and we where on allert status. All day we where putting out set fires on the perimeter and there where reports of rebels in the area. It was 10pm and I noticed movement outside the perimeter our orders where to challenge every one no one was to be out there per the General . Could barely make out the figures due to stupid military logic . All of the lights around the place faced in to it not out. Any way pulled up on them locked and loaded made them halt and the other guard went out to then to identify them. It turned out to be the CO and 1st SGT. Second time I did not have to draw got between two men that where trying to beat each other with hammers they where a little confused as to why I had stepped between them and they stopped fighting. Unfortunately when a police officer arrived( After 30 Min. Station was only a 1/2 mile down the road from this location) a large crowd had gathered and while the officer was questioning the primary the other one took of on a bicycle. I tried to catch him on foot but could not so the officer took off after him in the car but lost him and when he left the other guy jumped into a passing car and took off. A total fiasco. Main reason for carry is it is to be used only when absolutly required. I worked in the projects in Bridgeport CT for 7 years had a lot of confrontations but never had to draw on some one. Always walked away when prudent
Mike Mc
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Mentioned it before on another thread, but one time some guy grabbed for the door handle of the car while my then wife was driving with our son and I in the car, I had sight picture before I realized I had drawn, That was as far as it went, we kept on going. But she never again called me "paranoid" for carrying.
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Mentioned it before on another thread, but one time some guy grabbed for the door handle of the car while my then wife was driving with our son and I in the car, I had sight picture before I realized I had drawn, That was as far as it went, we kept on going. But she never again called me "paranoid" for carrying.
You did the right thing. It would be a very tramatic experience for the family if you had dropped the hammer on him. No doubt you would have done a different right thing had he persisted, as well.
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You did the right thing. It would be a very tramatic experience for the family if you had dropped the hammer on him. No doubt you would have done a different right thing had he persisted, as well.
Thats putting it MILDLY, I would have had to shoot across in front of my wife, and I KNOW she would have had a conniption.
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Thats putting it MILDLY, I would have had to shoot across in front of my wife, and I KNOW she would have had a conniption.
By the way, I've been using that "head down butt up" saying thing of yours around work. You don't mind, do you?
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By the way, I've been using that "head down butt up" saying thing of yours around work. You don't mind, do you?
Not a bit ;D I heard it somewhere years ago.
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Here's my last encounter.
It was over twenty years ago, I was divorced and living in an upstairs apartment in the city. I shared a common entrance with the young guy downstairs who was, at best, an alcoholic.
Several times he had mentioned to me that someone had been “stealing his stuff”, I didn't think much of it until one night probably around 2:00AM he was pounding on my door saying something about knowing who was stealing his stuff. I got out of bed, pulled on my jeans, stuck my Colt Officer's model in my back pocket, and went to the door. I'm left handed and the door open in with the knob on the right, so as I opened the door, my left arm was behind the door. I opened the door and there he was, with a revolver in his right hand, pointing at the ground. All I could think of was that he thought I was the one stealing his stuff and he was going to shoot me. I pulled the Colt, raising it behind the door, and started stepping back to get the gun around the door. At that point I knew I was going to shoot him. He started raising the gun, but in an odd way, kind of cross body, pointing to his left, then I saw the saddle ring at the base of the grip, it was a pellet gun. With my right hand I grabbed the barrel of the gun and took it away from him. He explained that he wanted me to keep the gun for him so whoever was taking his stuff wouldn't get it. He never saw my gun, I kept it behind the door, so he never knew how close he came to dying, but I'll never forget it.
My point in all of this? We all tend to practice for the direct confrontation, the mugger, the car jacker, right and wrong, black and white. It's been my experience that confrontations are more often gray, and I often read them wrong, but we don't train for that. We pull over to help someone with a flat tire and he walks to the car with a tire iron in his hand and we're conditioned to think “car jacking”, not that his kid put the wrong tire iron in the car and he's mad as hell and wants to show you what is kid did.
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My point in all of this? We all tend to practice for the direct confrontation, the mugger, the car jacker, right and wrong, black and white. It's been my experience that confrontations are more often gray, and I often read them wrong, but we don't train for that. We pull over to help someone with a flat tire and he walks to the car with a tire iron in his hand and we're conditioned to think car jacking, not that his kid put the wrong tire iron in the car and he's mad as hell and wants to show you what is kid did.
Very good point. I might have shot the guy with the knife in your first example and had no legal problems with it, but the others show the ambiguity of many situations we find ourselves confronted with. This is why knowledge of self defense LAW is as important as training in self defense shooting, it's also why we have to be AWARE of whats going on around us at all times.
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I agree, Awareness, whether when armed or not gives you more options. If you can see it coming, you can avoid it most of the time. There may be times when all the warning in the world won't get you out of a tight spot. But if you can see it coming it will give you a little more time to react and weigh your options.
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I have had a few encounters, and I will give 2 to start.
1st, I'm 6 years old, dads away from home, and my mother wakes me up and my little sister who is still a toddler. There is someone outside our front door, vigorously trying to open the front door. We as a group approach the front door, My mother has a single shot .22 rifle, and I don't know the maker, We are witnessing from 5' away someone wrestling our front door lock. My mom, is telling the would be intruder to go away, during the discussion, the .22 go's off, we heard feet pounding away for several seconds. A small hole in the floor, due to my mothers nervousness, and no worse for wear, I'm sure that's where my first thoughts of being prepared began.
2nd, My father and his business partner bought land in east Texas for deer hunting, We had quite a time there, and my fathers business partner still owns it. One year many years ago, Like 25 years ago, My father and I arrived for opening weekend to find our ancient trailer home had been burglarized and vandalized. We made simple repairs to allow us to stay, and called the local constabulary. We were there for 4 days. On the last day in the afternoon, we were getting ready to go back home, we had the tractor running to charge the battery, and my truck would not start, my dad was in the cab running the starter while I was under the hood looking for the source of the problem. All of a sudden I hear a car door shut, I look up and there is a black chevy station wagon, no logos, and a big guy standing beside it, checkered shirt and blue jeans. Our land was at the end of the road, You would pass lot's property on the way, We had just been taken advantage of, the tractor running masked the sound of the approaching vehicle, and I was concentrated on my truck not starting. I looked up, saw a stranger and took cover behind my truck and drew my Gold cup, aimed at the stranger and said, Who Are You, He said, " I'm from the Sheriffs department, and I'm here to get an offense report" I answered back " where is your badge and uniform?"
He said" My badge is right here, and we don't wear uniforms during deer season" He produced his badge and I apologized...
He was good natured and said the land owner before us came out with a 12 gauge. All was well and no shots fired.
Lesson learned, situational awareness is key, the tractor running kept us from hearing the approaching vehicle, you should have seen my fathers eyes when I drew down. I was definitely in condition orange when this went down, and was young, thank God I was a faithful follower of Uncle Jeff at that time, finger off the trigger but ready to do harm.
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My encounter happened about 15 years ago, before I had my permit. I was on vacation and had gone to N. Carolina to visit a friend. We were on our way to meet her sister in Florida. We had my young son, and her young nephews asleep in the backseat.
She was needing a pit stop and a soda so I pulled into a Quickie Mart somewhere in Georgia. It was 1:30 am, but this was a very busy store. It was well lit, and I pulled into the only parking space left. She went in, and there were at least a half dozen customers in line at the register. She was going to take her turn at the wheel, and I moved to the passenger side. I was standing there with the door open.
The car on our driver’s side left, and was replaced a minute later with a car full of “rowdy teenagers”. One went in the store, and the rest were being loud and very abusive to anyone around. I was waiting there and wishing my friend would hurry up so we could get out of there. It turned out she, and most of the other customers had retreated to let Mr. A-hole leave the store. He came out passed the stuff to his companions, and then eyed me. “What the hell are you looking at!” And he came around the back of the car towards me.
I had no gun, but I did have a collapsible baton in the glove box. I surprised myself at how quickly I retrieved it, and held it behind me. He never saw it, but knew I had something. That ended it. Without a word he returned to the car and they left, burning rubber as they did.
So it was really just all B.S., and some “kids” having some “fun”. As soon as it looked like it was getting serious they booked. I had always thought myself to be a careful person, especially after becoming a parent. This caused me to seriously reevaluate.
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My first time was when I was working for a security company that had a parpmacey in River Rouge Mi. It was on the 3rd of July and hot as hell out the store was set up in the back of the parking lot facing out with two doors about 6 feet apart I was close to the door about 10 feet away when I heard pop,pop,pop at first I thought it was just firecrackers and I went to the door and looked out side and saw a man in a 4 door ford with his hand out the window shooting at another car and saw the bullet stroke the driver of the other car in the head. I pulled my S&W model 10 from a flap holster and told everybody to get down and I hit the burglar alarm button and went to the door and started to air tne revolver up when a siren blasted and a voice came over a load speaker for the shooter to put down his gun and I saw the gun dropped and put mine away. 6 moths later I testified what I had seen and the guy got life ,I was 20 years old and I'm 52 now I have pulled my weapon many times and had to pull he trigger twice. Its not fun. And it makes you old fast. And yes their really is the "Mark of Cain".