The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Reloading => Topic started by: alfsauve on December 26, 2010, 06:52:26 PM
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I finally got to open my Lock and Load AP press today. Started mounting and assembly process. I've got some good things and some nits.
First here's a picture of it mounted on the table, but no dies installed.
(http://sauve.smugmug.com/Gun-General/i-XTdLz5c/0/M/IMG_3884small-M.jpg)
MOUNTING: They make it clear that it takes two 5/16" bolts that you must provide. I have a "penny rail" around my bench to keep things from rolling off. So I had to cut away about 8" to accommodate the press and the "finished round" box. That box fits flush with the edge of the table. No problem, cutting away the rail and I had the bolts so we were good to go.
SHELL PLATE: One thing I already had was some short blocks of wood I use for various things. With any progressive these blocks are great for holding the ram up while you work on the press. They mention this in the instructions. I didn't quite see how the "EZ Eject worked" until I ran some empty cases around. The retention spring takes a little dip on the left where the finished round exits and the new shell is fed in.
PRIMER FEED: The press came with the large primer feed installed, so I had to replace. Several big pictures in the manual help me figure it out. Nice part is it comes with a white fiberglass rod that helps "ride" the primers down the tube. (See picture below.) That rod will also act as a signal, of sorts when you're low on primers. I had intended on making one myself, but it came with the kit.
POWDER MEASURE: The powder measure, though part of the kit, is packaged for sale as a separate item, so the LnL instructions refer you to the PM instructions. The measure comes with both a large and small cylinder and meter. The large was already installed so I had to switch them out. This switching is a good thing, because that's how I learn all the ins and outs of the installation. The primer parts have a light oil on them, so you have to degrease them. I took it all apart and used Xylol first then cleaned it with rubbing alcohol. Once installed it's easy to remove the PM. I order the powder dump, but I think it's easier just to pull the whole measure out of the press. I haven't tried it with powder but the linkages seem to work very well.
DIES: The neat thing about the LnL and the bushings is how easy it is to take dies on and off without affecting their settings. So with just an 1/8 of a turn the PM comes out and gives me room to mount the dies. Because of the depth of the LnL bushing I almost run out of room for the locking ring, but everything fits. I mounted the dies in order one at a time. With each one I'd run some shells through it to make sure it was okay. Then I'd remove that die and mount the next one. The wood block for holding the shell plate up and preventing it from rotating was very valuable at this point. Finally putting them all back in and running some shells around without primer or powder. All worked smoothly.
Here's a picture of my first reloads:
(http://sauve.smugmug.com/Gun-General/i-XJLMDzS/0/M/IMG_3896small-M.jpg)
YES, there's no primer....or powder. These were practice rounds to make sure the press was adjusted and operating well. It also gave me a chance to go over the "cadence" I would use in reloading. 1) Put in new empty 2) Check powder 3) Start bullet 4) Cycle ram 5) Bring ram up 6) Push forward to prime. [edited] New cadence now, Empty Case, Prime, Check Powder, Seat Bullet, Cycle.
In the picture is also my utility wood block and the white rod used as a "follower" inside the primer tube. I marked it with black ink to show when the primers were running low. I may see about some electronic warning next.
POSITIVES:
- The LnL Bushings are great and allow me to quickly configure the press for different things and to remove dies to make it easier to work on other dies. I have a couple of hundred rounds already sized and expanded, so just twist out those two dies and I can do primer/powder/bullet. Just a twist and the other two dies are back in again.
- Well made and lots of instructions. Included is an instructional DVD, which I will review before I begin full operation.
- Lots of leverage. Running rounds through (without primer and powder) was easy and didn't require a lot of effort though it does requires about 150 degrees of swing. I can see how a bent arm would keep you from reaching down as far.
- All in all, simple and well made. Rugged and seems very reliable.
NEGATIVE: (mostly nits)
- They could have included 3" or 4" bolts which would have covered 99% of the installations
- Some things come already installed. Trouble is the instructions treat it like nothing is put together, so you waste time and get confused until you recognize this.
- They could mark the parts. "L" for large primer. "S" for small. It would be just reassuring. I may color code for my own pleasure, red for large and green for small.
- They need to put "de-grease" in big bold typeface all over the LnL and Powder Measure instructions. Had I not wanted the smaller rotor and meter, I could easily missed the small type that warns that the PM is oiled to prevent rust. Also, I'm sure some people could use some guidance in selecting a de-greaser.
- You have to mail in the warranty card with your own stamp. Come on folks.....web based registration.
- There is a rebate but it......well it sucks. You get 5 "free" "boxes" of bullets. Two problems. a) A very limited choice of probably the slower moving stock. I chose the 500 handgun bullets. b) You have to pay shipping! I'm sending in the rebate as a protest and telling them to deduct one of the 5 "free" boxes to cover the shipping cost. If I paid shipping, their $146.75 "rebate" really would only net me about $85 (using actual OTC prices, not MSRP). And then that would be for style/weight/size bullets I don't really want.
Alright, they're mainly minor nits. Did I mention it also comes with {edited} an abbreviated Hornady Reloading Manual, though the powder selection is limited. I like it and think I got a better buy over Dillon. I don't recommend Progressive if you've never reloaded before, though I'm sure many people have started with it. But if you're ready to move up to progressive then I recommend the Hornady.
More info once I start reloading for real.
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I had a window of opportunity, so I went for it. Thought I'd use up the last of my VV340 powder. Had just enough for 200 rounds.
- First Mistake: Remember I degrease'd the powder measure? I had left the metering plug out. Well I poured in the powder and it just came trickling back out. Didn't loose a lot, but it made a mess! HOWEVER, good lesson - see next point.
- FOD: In the Air Force FOD is Foreign Object Damage. Actually it's also used as a noun to mean any foreign objects. So I got powder all over everything. FOD in, on and under the shell plate. FOD in the primer feeder. Progressives don't like FOD! Especially the primer feeder. So toothpicks and Q-tips can be your friend. I think a slight modification to the shape of the primer feeder slider thingy will make it much more tolerant to FOD. The shell plate actually doesn't mind the FOD except the EZ Eject can get a little rough. Just keep things clean.
- PRIMING: This is the only place where I feel uncomfortable. I'm use to hand seating my primers and inspecting them before proceeding. With such a heavy press you can't feel them seating. Nothing much I can do about that, except inspect the finished rounds afterwards. I do stop now and then an pull a shell out to check. I missed about 5 primers out of 300 rounds loaded. Most in the first 100. So much attention to priming is needed
- LOW PRIMER: My mark on the white follower works great. Even better is the rod locks the primer feeder back after the last primer. Very easy to watch for the last one. Also, it will be very easy to mount a micro switch on the base that will be activated when the primer feeder is locked back.
- CADENCE: PRIME-NEW CASE-CHECK POWDER-PLACE BULLET-STROKE. {revised} CASE -- PRIME -- POWDER -- BULLET -- CYCLE It's my "mantra" while I'm loading.
Did I mention how much I love the LnL feature. Did 100 cases with all 4 dies. Took out the re-sizer and expander dies and did 100 cases already size/expanded. Put the dies back in and did another 100 with all 4. C-o-o-o-o-o-o-l. If priming continues to be a concern, I may break my reloading up into two sessions. On run will be re-size, prime and expand. Then inspect all the rounds. Then powder, seating and crimping. Yes it's slower, but I might feel better about it. And with LnL. It's so easy to do!!!
Oh, the primer pickup tubes work fine, it's just that I'm getting older and fingers get a little cramped holding that tube. I may wrap some tape around the tube to give me an easier grip.
With my first runs I was doing a steady 6/minute. Paused now and then to inspect primers, but basically 100 rounds in 20 minutes. Sure beats the hour it use to take. And so much less work.
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I have a Lee progressive reloader that I really need to get set up. I have had it for 5+ years and haven't ever done a reload!
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Looks good Alf! Think you'll spring for the automatic case feeder down the road? Bill T.
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I have a Lee progressive reloader that I really need to get set up. I have had it for 5+ years and haven't ever done a reload!
Got that one beat. I bought a Dillon RL550 around 1997 and it is still in the box...... :-\ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
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Looks good Alf! Think you'll spring for the automatic case feeder down the road? Bill T.
While a great convenience, it is rather expensive....and noisy. If I were to get motivated, I might buy some of the parts and try jury rigging my own "feeder" of sorts.
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Congrats Alf, I love my Dillon's, but Hornaday makes good products, on the priming issue, ( I do this with my hand primer as well )
when you seat the primer, don't let off, at least not much, just enough to take pressure off the case, turn it 1/3, reseat the primer, and then another 1/3 and reseat again, your primers will be well seated. Good luck with your new purchase.
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While a great convenience, it is rather expensive....and noisy. If I were to get motivated, I might buy some of the parts and try jury rigging my own "feeder" of sorts.
Actually that is not a bad idea. Eliminate the big electric rotor at the top and go with a drop tube and the insertion linkage at the bottom.
Dropping a case in the tube will be quicker and require less concentration than getting it into the shell plate shot.
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Thanks for the write up and review alf, I have just ordered one myself together with 10 extra bushings and shell plates for .357 and 44 mag. I am thinking I will get a shell holder for .444 later on.
I am paying 650 for the press here in aus which tbh is a good price for here normally they are around 800.
I have a few presses but am looking at cutting down on some space, I have a Lee pro 1000 set up for 9mm, a lee prgressive turret, a lee o frame, a simplex press, a mec 600jnr and a pacific shot shell reloader, a rcbs priming station etc TOO MUCH.
Hopefully this new press will allow me to load 44/357 in a timely manner a few hundred in a sitting.
Apparently these lock and loads are really smooth to operate which will be a welcome change on the clunky pro 1000.
I do like the idea of making a case feeder of sorts, will have to look into that when i get it and set it up.
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Having gone over the 2,000 mark and having now loaded 4 different calibers..
Again, the big advantage is how easy it is to tailor for various work. (If you're only going to use it for one caliber, one load, one bullet - get the Dillon 550) I had 200 .357 cases already primed and another 200 not. Setup the dies and started with the unprimed dies. Once I got them through, a simple twist to remove the resizer and expander dies and I just kept on going. When I finish I realized I had 100 more unprimed cases. Filled the primer tube, twisted in the two dies and kept on trucking.
The biggest time consumer in switch calibers is adjusting the auto powder measure for different height cases. Though having gone through it several times I'm now quicker at it.
Major nit is emptying the primer tube if you have left over primers. Don't put in any more primers than you intend to use. Hornady, says to empty the tube, to put your hand under the primer assembly and carefully remove the tube. Hoping of course you catch all the primers. I just try to make sure I can use all the primers I put in. Instead of loading to number of cases or bullets, you tend to load to number of primers.
I also realized last week that I got 2 small primer tubes instead of 1 large and 1 small. No problem. Hornady shipped out a replacement right away. PROBLEM. I haven't had mail or UPS delivery for a week now! (okay, okay 4 week days....hopefully she'll come today. Ice storm.)
All in all I REALLY REALLY REALLY need to get to the range to "unload" some of my cases. I'm also out of one type of powder.
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Thanks for the info Alf, btw the guide you have done re the LnL is brilliant, I have gone back now and just ordered a another retaining spring and spare pick up tubes. Now I just have to wait till I get it.......... :'(
Oh I forgot to ask what dies are you using with the press, I currently have Lee ones and hoping they will work ok, according to hornady they will take all 7/8th dies. will be interesting to see if the factory crimp dies can be incorporated
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Sledge, I have a variety of dies, all 7/8x14. I have some old Herter's, some RCBS, Lee, and Lyman. I haven't tried all of them (am working on it as fast as supplies and time allows though), but haven't run into any problem.
The LnL bushing is pretty long and I almost run out of room for the lock ring, has been my only concern. So far (4 different calibers) it hasn't been a problem. Just close.
I like the Hornady split lock ring, and may order some of those to replace the variety I have. The Lee lock rings definitely aren't my favorite.
Along the road I will probably upgrade to Hornady dies. My .357/38 could use replacing as they're the oldest and a mixture of 3 manufacturers. But money being what it is this isn't a priority.
One thing I do like about Lee's .40 and .45ACP dies is their Factory Crimp Die, which act as a "final sizer". It "post sizes your case assuring you that any round that passes through the die will chamber properly in your gun." (their quote) Can't do that with 9mm since it's tapered.
Let me know how you do once you get it set up and running.
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Hey alf not sure if you have seen these but I thought I would post them incase you havent.
DIY automatic case feeders, lot cheaper than the real deal.
uses one of a lee auto!
also these:
DIY CASE FEEDER link (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0BxCSLSkK6mCFNGUzNjI5MDItOTk0NC00ODExLTkwZGItNGViZjk3MDdjYzU0&hl=en&authkey=CNibyKQN)
This is for a dillon but could be adapted I think
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Very cool Sledge. Thanks for the links. I haven't started on that project yet. Still working on some other things right now.
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Okay, after running some prototypes, I finally got it installed.
Here's my "Primer Out" warning device.
Couple of goals.
Not battery operated, but low voltage
LED light for reliability
No modification to the press
Here's what it looks like as long as there are primers in the tube.
(http://sauve.smugmug.com/Gun-General/i-VSzKTMv/0/L/IMG_4088-L.jpg)
And here's what happens when you go to prime and there's no primer.
(http://sauve.smugmug.com/Gun-General/i-Djvhrnb/0/L/IMG_4087-L.jpg)
I'm going to put a red lens (gel) on it, but for now it's white.
This was a small battery powered reading/work light for $3 at the local grocery store. I removed the batteries and the switch on the rear and soldered the wires to the back of the light assembly. It has a little clamp and attaches neatly to the press.
Behind the press is a micro switch. It is mounted on an angle bracket. When the primer tube is empty the primer follower rod locks the slider in the rear position which engages the micro switch as the ram comes down.
(http://sauve.smugmug.com/Gun-General/i-8RnktBH/0/L/IMG_4084-L.jpg)
The bracket is held in place by it's lip which is udner the press. And the power supply wire is run through a hole right behind the press. I have a bunch of "wall wart" power supplies, so it was a simple matter to find a 3volt one that would power this lamp assembly. I wanted something cute'r like a railroad warning signal or a railroad block signal or a traffic light. I haven't found what I want yet. The problem with scale model stuff is that the brightness is to "scale", so they're not very bright.
One last picture where you can see the little "wheel" on the primer slider tray thingy. It's stuck the rear position because it has trapped the rod where there should be a primer.
(http://sauve.smugmug.com/Gun-General/i-cXjqQcW/0/L/IMG_4086-L.jpg)
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Just a note about 9mm.
I found that 9mm cases work very well with the 40S&W Shell plate. The difference is only 3/100". Plus since the 9mm is tapered if it's not lined up exactly with the die it will still enter the die without catching on the sides, and center itself. I was about 100 rounds into a batch of 9mm before I realized this. I could have saved myself a few bucks.
However, .40S&W cannot be loaded with the 9mm shell plate, which is cut to exactly the 9mm dimension.
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Just a note about 9mm.
I found that 9mm cases work very well with the 40S&W Shell plate. The difference is only 3/100". Plus since the 9mm is tapered if it's not lined up exactly with the die it will still enter the die without catching on the sides, and center itself. I was about 100 rounds into a batch of 9mm before I realized this. I could have saved myself a few bucks.
However, .40S&W cannot be loaded with the 9mm shell plate, which is cut to exactly the 9mm dimension.
Interesting! I have got a 44mag shell plate and I havent tried it yet but I am hoping that it fits the .444 (it should) as I notice that they have a different shellplate for it.
BTW the press arrived today along with shell plates however the extra bushings have not :'( So I have messaged the supplier and advised.
I have got me some degreaser and I might pull apart the powder dispenser thingy (technical term) tonight and degrease it and re-lube it ready to be installed.
I should be able to get my shed cleaned up this weekend and give it a try this coming week, then I can try making a few improvements.
I really like the idea of that Lee case feeder, way cheaper than the electronic hornady version.
I reckon that mod of yours is a pearler and should be put with your other post on the LnL, perhaps a mod can copy it or move it, It should also be a sticky imho.
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Sledge, When you say "relube" the powder measure, I hope you mean a dry silicon lube not anything with oil in it. One accessory I've put on my wish list is a "stand" for the powder measure, so when I take it out of the press, I have a place to put it.
I don't want to mess up the LnL starter guide thread with too many additions. I want to keep it simple and basic. There are tons of "hints and kinks" out there that anybody can search for. My Primer-out indicator will eventually show up in Google. If I had the time, a good sticky thread would be one that listed links to everybody else's tricks and mods for the LnLAP.
I haven't tried .45ACPs using the .308 (#1) shellplate. Hornady says they're a little loose. They do appear to be a little loose, but like using 9mm with the .40 shell plate, I think they'll work fine. I'm shooting for this weekend to load some and we'll see.
Maybe today, I'll add some more pictures to this thread showing more details of the microswitch installation and bracket.
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Well went down tonight finally to do some reloading have been busy all week.
Fill up primer tubes - check
Fill Powder Hopper - Check
insert case deprime - check
Got to reprime case - nope, the primer slide is stuck open. Hmmm I think. I gave the slide a little tap and it comes loose again and retracts. I think to myself I will try it again, insert case deprime, goto reprime and the slide sticks open again,, I am now thinking (GRRRRRRRR #%#T%4 !!!! ) oh darn. I gave a little wiggle and this time it wont budge, it seems it came back so far it dropped another primer down, so now I am thinking I will take the primer tube assembly apart and check it is put together properly etc, I raise the shell plate and I hear ping the pin holding the little wheel that on the primer slide flew out and landed god knows where in the workshop leaving the wheel spinning on my bench. SO now I cant reload large calibre hand gun ammo and will be calling Hornady at 8 AM to request they send out a new NON Faulty primer slide.
Not a great start to what I was hoping was going to be an enjoyable night reloading on my NEW press.
This is not the only little irk I have found with this press either. While degreasing the powder measure the adjustment screw in the larger hopper was so tight I needed pliers to actually turn it out and remove to degrease, I ended out swapping them adjustment scre over with the pistol one and it now works fine and the other works fine in that one, it seems some ones thread cutting ability was a bit off the day it was machined.
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Know how you feel. I've "popped" mine a couple of times.
It is a bummer that the wheel and its pin aren't more secure, but at least there is a second wheel on the other primer tray. The primer feed tray is a little finicky. I posted that it fits just a little too tight and you have to keep the raceway clean. The spring is generic and it doesn't appear the specs are terribly critical. You can replace it from the hardware store.
One of the many guppies (great unfinished projects - TM Chris Wren) is to get a spare slide and grind the leading edge more into a wedge shape from their radius shape. Powder and grit will have then have a place to accumulate. So instead of this
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It's look more like this on the front end, if you get the idea
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I just got off the phone to Hornady, spoke to a Greg and then to Laurie and they are sending me a new one lickiy split.
Greg said they just glue the pins in with superglue ??? Like wtf SUPERGLUE (crazy glue in US speak I think). Thinking I may need to knock up a better type with the broken one I have, might drill it through and tape a thread into it and knock up a replacement pin.
In the mean time I guess I can load .357 tomorrow night LOL
Least the service people there was very nice.
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Super glue is fine for holding pins in place. When I was running a spotwelder we often made up our fixtures with it. However, while it will stand up to pressure, it will not take shear forces or shocks, such as the whack you said you gave it.