The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: jc451911 on February 24, 2008, 11:02:00 AM
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I, like many (or all) of you are concerned about the upcoming election and the ramifications the results may have for us all. I want to look at rifles for personal defense. I am working with a limited budget, but I want to get myself just one rifle (preferrably a black rifle) of some sort before inauguaration day. I already have several opinions and preferences, but I want to make sure I haven't overlooked anything before my tax rebate check gets here!
I would prefer a Springfield M1A Scout Squad, or a DSA FN of some sort, however they are both way out of price range. However, I am not adverse to an AR of some sort, though the caliber is a little light for all around use. AK's I like as well , but it would only take one executive order from whomever the new President may be to drive parts and ammo prices through the roof. So a domestic design (Mini-14?) may be desirable. Parts availability, magazine availability, ammo costs, are some of my main concerns with this one rifle.
Any assistance, experiences and/or suggestions are welcome!
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CDNN has the PTR-91 (H&K 91 copy) listed for $899 and this is probably the number 1 TEOTWAWKI, Road Warrior rifle around. The H&K, CETME, PTR type rifles are every bit as reliable as the AK (Assuming they are set up correctly, which many of the CIA and other imported and assembled rifles are not) and broken parts are as rear as hens-teeth in semi-automatic models (FA versions can be beaten to death in as few as 50,000 rounds). The roller-locked action is very forgiving of headspace, it will fire just about any load light or heavy (I have even fired Light-magnums in mine, though I don't recommend a steady diet of those) and requires no adjustments or modifications to do so. As far as replacement parts, I would get a couple firing pins, two full spring replacement sets, a few replacement rollers (1 standard, 1 +2 and 1 +4 set, these are how you reset the headspace if ever required) and a couple of replacement trigger packs as I find the trigger system difficult to work on. The odds are that most of these will never be needed but they are good to have. Magazines are dirt cheap right now too, some places have them for under $5 each if you buy 5 or 10 at a pop. I would get a pile of Wolf ammo for practice and everyday use and a smaller quantity of reloadable ammo for later-on, and yes you CAN reload ammo fired out of these weapons, the flute marks and the dent will come out then you resize the brass, though it will reduce the number of times you can reload the brass so keep track.
The other weapon I would recommend is the AK. They are dirt cheap, reliable and also almost never break anything. The Yugoslavian and Bulgarian models are probably the best right now (the Russian models are fine too but more difficult to find right now) and the Romanian ones are the cheapest. Once again the CIA models need to be checked carefully for proper assembly as many have the front sight or the gas block assembled in a canted position. The AK lacks the power of the PTR but it is cheaper to feed and many of the parts are easier and cheaper to get. People will tell you that the AK is less ergodynamic than an AR, but in reality the problem is that it is not an AR and if you try to operate it like an AR it doesn't work well. Go to Gabe Saurez Warrior Talk forum (or better yet go to one of his AK classes) and learn to operate it like an AK and most of these issues disappear. Replace the trigger with a "Red Star Arms" trigger group and you will be surprised how big a difference in accuracy and shootablilty you get. You can get an AK in 7.62x39mm or 5.45x39.5mm, the 7.62 is better for penetration while the 5.45 is cheaper and much more accurate as well as being effective at up to 500 meters as opposed to 300 for the 7.62.
Lastly there is the Romanian PSL"Sniper rifle" (it isn't really, it is more of a designated marksman rifle), this is a AK blown up to accept the 7.62x54r round and made more accurate. This is another very reliable rifle and the '54r round has nearly as much power as a 30-06. This is limited to 10 round magazine but realistically this is less of a handicap than many believe, provided you learn to shoot it well. The best ammo is the 7n1 Russian sniper ammo (more expensive and harder to find but well worth the effort and expense) but the Wolf 147gr ammo is said to be almost as good (DO NOT USE the heavy 150+ ammo, it can damage the weapon). Get extra firing pins (spring-loaded one by preference) and replacement springs and install the "Red Star Arms" trigger for improved performance. The PSL runs in the $800 to $900 range with scope and magazines are $20 TO $40. The ammo is a lot cheaper than 7.62 NATO as well, avoid the 7.62 NATO versions of this weapon as the magazines are a big issue with these. Also, this weapon was designed for accurate slow-fire as opposed to hosing down the landscape, accuracy decreases as it heats up.
I wouldn't worry about what the government does with imports, get the weapons, parts and ammo now and you won't have to worry about it. For you the AK will let you get the most bang for your buck as 7.62x39 is running $180 to $200 a case and 5.45 is $120 to $150 a 1000 (a full case of surplus 5.45 is 2160rds in 2 sealed tins which is great for long-term storage and can be found for as little as $210). $1000 would get you a WASR AK-74 ($350) 10 magazines ($200) the trigger and parts ($150 or less) and 2000rds of ammo ($300 or less). Later, you could concentrate on buying more ammo and/or mags as you get the cash.
With the others you pay more but you get much more effective rounds, although the PSL has a much lower ammo cost at about $150 a 880rd case for surplus light ball and Wolf running under $300 a 1000rd case and the 7n1 ammo running $150 a 440rd tin (when you can find it). 7.62 NATO is running over 50cents a round just about everywhere so expect that if you go for the PTR or something similar.
Hope this helps.
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Thanks Warhawke. I'm soaking it all in.
.30 Cal plus is always good, but I'm hearing good things about 5.45, as well as cheap!
Anything on imported FAL's. Heard ATFE, changed some of the requirements for importation. Found one a couple of years ago, for $600. Just couldn't afford it then.
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I agree with Warhawke on the AK. I just got back from shooting mine, 200 rounds today and not one problem. As far as an AR I don't own one....yet, but I liked the LWRC, but not the $$$$ they want for them. Also liked the POF, again $$$ and the Bushmaster ACR....If you don't know all the above rifles are gas piston ;) I've also shot RRA and several bushmasters. All did fine...I did like the RRA a little better for me....So go with your gut, make sure you get the one you want. Have fun!
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Direct gas impingement and the AR-15 certainly have their drawbacks! I'd much rather have my old Squad Scout with it's EOTech back. But I got a deal on that one and it's just not feasible now. As for what I can afford an AK, an FAL or a G3 seems to fit the bill. However, an AR would have the advantage of being compatable with military weapons if the SHTF in a bad way!
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i like the ar platform if the 223 is not a round to your liking you might look into the a-10 which comes in a 308 round good for hunting. also there are a lot of ways to customizing it to make it fit you better. or just to make it ldifferent and yours. parts are easy to find. 8) just another thought.
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CDNN has the PTR-91 (H&K 91 copy) listed for $899 and this is probably the number 1 TEOTWAWKI, Road Warrior rifle around.
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Hope this helps.
It helped a lot. But, I am tired, been very busy today, and I am drawing a total blank as to what TEOTWAWKI means. Help?? :-\
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It helped a lot. But, I am tired, been very busy today, and I am drawing a total blank as to what TEOTWAWKI means. Help?? :-\
The End Of The World As We Know It :D
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The End Of The World As We Know It :D
OK, thanks, that clears it up for me. And cheerful too!! :D
Fits my mood these days . . . . . :-X :'(
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I am having the same problem with choosing a rifle. As a result i think the best plan is to build my own. I think buying a DPMS lower might be the coolest way to get a new rifle that fills the bill.
tex
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i have a friend who did just that. He went to a local gun show and one of the dealers brings uppers and lowers and will assemble the rifle to your specs right there while you watch. The only reservation there is what components are used. I haven't spoken with my friend about how it has performed. I'll have to do that. He said he paid around $600. Which seems PDG.
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I haven't spoken with my friend about how it has performed. I'll have to do that. He said he paid around $600. Which seems PDG.
I would appreciate it if you would let us know.
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jc451911, You have gotten good advice here. But I might add a different bend, I don't know your budget, but warhawke has given you some things to think about, a complete package, ammo, mags, and rifle. These are all important. If you have 300 bucks, then an sks with detachable ak mags is in order, 500 bucks, an ak with mags and a little ammo is in order. 800 bucks and your world starts to open up to a lot of options. Ar15, cetme, fnfal with no frills, A high quality ak, or dragunov, however, if your just trying to hedge your bet against future gun, assault rifle legislation, buy an ar15 lower reciever, 100 bucks to 150 bucks for a naked lower, and you can build it up later. The lower reciever is what is serialized,,, and what counts. I did this before the last ban and the lower I bought was worth 4 times what I paid. I did not sell it, but wish I had bought a lot more. You can complete the rifle or rifles in stages as you go, don't forget to buy plenty of magazines.
Food for thought.
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If I had only 1 rifle for an EOTWAWKI and I had to walk out the door right now I would take my Ruger 10/22.
I know I know it is only a pissant .22 buuuut, I could put 3 or 4 thousand rounds in my backpack with no problems. If I took my M4 and walked out the door I would only have a few hundred rounds to face the unknown.
With that being said if I was only going to walk outside and lay waste to an attacking horde of 2 legged crooks I would choose my M4 hands down.
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If I had only 1 rifle for an EOTWAWKI and I had to walk out the door right now I would take my Ruger 10/22.
I know I know it is only a pissant .22 buuuut, I could put 3 or 4 thousand rounds in my backpack with no problems. If I took my M4 and walked out the door I would only have a few hundred rounds to face the unknown.
With that being said if I was only going to walk outside and lay waste to an attacking horde of 2 legged crooks I would choose my M4 hands down.
Good point. If you put 'em down automatic dibs on their gear........................I like it. ;D
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Only thing I would say is make it a 7.62 x 54 (.308) or a 30-06. Ammo will always be there.
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Haz, I don't mean to nit pick (it comes naturally, probably part of why I'm divorced ::) ) but .308 is 7.62 x 51 the 7.62 x54 as you most likely know, is for the Russian rifles,Nagant, Draganov etc..
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Haz, I don't mean to nit pick (it comes naturally, probably part of why I'm divorced ::) ) but .308 is 7.62 x 51 the 7.62 x54 as you most likely know, is for the Russian rifles,Nagant, Draganov etc..
That's not nit picking, that's correcting an "OOPS!". ;D
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Good point. If you put 'em down automatic dibs on their gear........................I like it. ;D
Yeah with my little ol .22 LR I can shop for vehicles and more mission specific guns. ;D
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The choice is easy, for me, the FNFAL inch pattern(Aussie) with EOTech sights. Doug
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I would recommend either an AK-47 or an AR-15 either one. AK's are tough as nails and ammo is cheaper as of now. AR's are more finackie (dunno bout spelling...hence bout.. anyway) and ammo is higher.. but you get better accuracy and longer moa shots.. either are a worthy investiment these days.. get something.. anything.. that you can. Both are good.
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Lots of good choices in this thread. You can get a great AR for under $1g that meets you needs with 223 ammo and mags being rather cheap.
My 2ยข, I like rifles that are capable of MOA or sub-MOA accuracy. I haven't seen any (but am sure there are) AKs or Mini-14's/30's that can group that tight. There are a lot of AR's and M1A's that can.
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m25operator opens up the choice into the .308 world as he should. Best battle round made. Its up to you to make a choice of where you would make a stand. and how much open ground between you and the agressor. In my world I choose AK and may go for a CETME if classic keeps selling them as cheap as they are. 3 rifles everyone should own 762x39- 5.56 or 545x39- and .308. I should add the 762x54.