The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: ronlarimer on January 09, 2011, 02:47:21 PM
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I know you can't choose a car for me, but I thought I would solicit ideas. I currently have a 2009 Z71 GMC Sierra Crew-Cab SLT that I bought 2 years ago with the sole purpose of taking 3 years depreciation on it and selling it to my dad. The end of that period isn't too far off and I am beginning to think about what 2012 model vehicle to replace it with.
I like my truck enough that I would keep it if my dad decided not to buy it, but I don't think that is going to happen. I plan to keep this next vehicle for 10 years and then give it to my son as a 1st vehicle.
The ideal vehicle would be...
- Under 22' long (garage depth)
- 4 door with decent rear leg room
- 4 wd
- Get 20 MPG average
- Have 58"+ of shoulder room
- Have some inside storage
- Under 40K
This vehicle doesn't exist. What would you choose?
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If you negate the 4wd A town car fits that bill to a tee. The impala is another option, but its about half the car the town car is.
If you want the 4wd, then your options are basicly suvs and the milage will be in the teens.
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Based on that list, I'd say none of the above!
Reliability issues with the Jeep/Chrysler and GMC both. Let alone they shouldn't even be in business anymore. They're managed by incompetent fools who could find their butts with both hands and a flashlight and haven't paid us back for their bailouts.
Can't' speak to the Audi but with premium fuel required, that's just silly.
The Toyota is a two door.
Regardless of my ire about the bailouts, I'm still going to be a Ford guy for the foreseeable future and I worked for GM some years back. My father retired from GM. You couldn't give me one for free.
Look at the Taurus or Fusion in AWD....way under 40K
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I would go with a full size pick up or suv. My choice is tainted by our location. Between Thanksgiving and Christmas we faced four days of solid ice on our state highways and three weeks on the county blacktops in our part of the state. Last weekend a storm nailed the Dakotas and northern Minnesota, and I spent Monday through Thursday on glare ice on interstates and state highways. Friday I left the Cities in strong NW winds, and was bucking small drifts and near zero visibility for the last 60 miles home (the last eight miles I could not see the end of the hood, and I drove with the door open watching the center lines most of the time).
When I travel I am mostly driving a 2005 Chevrolet Malibu. It is a very good car, and it is very reliable. It is plenty small for a guy my size (see photo), but it has as much room as my wife's 2009 Chevrolet Impala. After the first 100 miles last week I wished I had broke the pick up (2005 Ford F 100 crew cab 4wd) out of the shed. The 4wd wouldn't have been that big a deal, but the height off the ground helps visibility in blowing snow, and the added mass around me helps settle the nerves around whacko drivers on this crap.
I'd love to tell you exactly what to do, but buying a vehicle is like picking a wife ... actually somewhere between picking a gun and picking a wife ;)
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Don't even think about the Audi, if it needs work the cost just of parts will make your ass sore.
Toyota didn't take any bail out money, and has a pretty good reputation for reliability, plus, unlike Ford, most of them are assembled in America, so that's the only practical choice on your list
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Drop by your local Subaru dealer and look at the Forester or Outback. One of those will be my next car.
Pecos
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Don't even think about the Audi, if it needs work the cost just of parts will make your ass sore.
Toyota didn't take any bail out money, and has a pretty good reputation for reliability, plus, unlike Ford, most of them are assembled in America, so that's the only practical choice on your list
Of the 26 world wide Ford assembly plants, 18 are in the United States. By 2012, that number will be higher as Ford has brought the Focus out of Mexico and back to the Wayne, MI plant.
I agree on the Toyota line of cars though, don't let the debacle of their recall problems dissuade you from considering a Toyota truck just be prepared to pay the higher price.
Edit.....this information is from 2005, this list has changed, probably significantly....I'm a bit disappointed as the Fusion is built in Mexico. Kind of a killer for me...
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Of the 26 world wide Ford assembly plants, 18 are in the United States. By 2012, that number will be higher as Ford has brought the Focus out of Mexico and back to the Wayne, MI plant.
I agree on the Toyota line of cars though, don't let the debacle of their recall problems dissuade you from considering a Toyota truck just be prepared to pay the higher price.
toyotas build quality as sliped alot in the last 5 years. hell we even limoned lawed one back to them. in less then 7k miles it went thru 2 cpu, a tranny, 5 gps/climit control boards. and a new rear hatch lift system. Funny, they were way over the time in shop and number of vists, and still did not want to pay up. One call from my lawyer, and we walked out with a check. Now yeah, every once in awhile something slips thru, but just about every thing on that suv broke. oh yeah toytoa still only gives you 10k mile tires unless you upgrade ::)
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One thing I forgot to include in my earlier rambling:
Good Local Dealership!!!
Every make out there has service departments. No matter how good it is, at some point you will need parts and service. If you don't have a good local shop and a good extended network where you travel the 99.99% reliable vehicle will be 100% worthless when the 0.01% happens.
We have a Chevrolet dealership in town, a Ford dealer 12 miles away, and both have service nationwide. Pretty well dictates what I will be looking at.
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A good dealer will make a bad car better and a good car great.
a bad dealer will make a great car bad.
Sadly all the local non luxury car dealers are pita. Its what happens when on guy/family buys up all the dealer ships in the area.
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toyotas build quality as sliped alot in the last 5 years. hell we even limoned lawed one back to them. in less then 7k miles it went thru 2 cpu, a tranny, 5 gps/climit control boards. and a new rear hatch lift system. Funny, they were way over the time in shop and number of vists, and still did not want to pay up. One call from my lawyer, and we walked out with a check. Now yeah, every once in awhile something slips thru, but just about every thing on that suv broke. oh yeah toytoa still only gives you 10k mile tires unless you upgrade ::)
Toyota doesn't warranty their tires. They're warranted by the tire manufacturer. Other than that, your statement is ridiculous. Toyota uses good quality, brand name tires made by the major manufacturers that are at least 30-40K mile tires. My daughters RAV4 had Goodyear on it from the factory and they weren't cheap.
Now, the DEALER may have removed THOSE tires and replaced them with cheap junk which is more likely. Car dealers are paroled felons wearing cheap suits for the most part....
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its only on thier cheapest cars, still its a joke.
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A good dealer will make a bad car better and a good car great.
a bad dealer will make a great car bad.
Sadly all the local non luxury car dealers are pita. Its what happens when ona bad business guy/family buys up all the dealer ships in the area.
I am not a fan of over consolidation of business, but sometimes the best thing that can happen is for a good businessman to buy up the poor to average.
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Go with the GMC Yukon.
We just traded in our 2003 Yukon XL for a 2010 Yukon XL and we are getting 19.5 mpg per the driver information center on the vehicle. It is a 4x4 wouldn't have any other here in Michigan in the winter.
BTW I need to trade my car in the next four months. I am thinking of another GMC. We have had very good luck with them for 25 years. I have had other brands along the way, including Ford -- Fix Or Repair Daily -- and some Chryslers and German brands. GMC is the best.
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I am not a fan of over consolidation of business, but sometimes the best thing that can happen is for a good businessman to buy up the poor to average.
Here in SE Connecticut, we have basically three families of Auto Dealers and all their names end with a vowel. The only one that doesn't, is an Irishman. They are ALL crooked......If you want a car in New London county, that's who you have to deal with.
In MA, there are several families as well and guess what? They're all crooked too. One guy, Herb Chambers, sells nearly every car made in the world at one dealer or another......a thief to the 10th exponent...
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Everyone has an opinion, I know I do but my experience with Ford over GM and Chrysler is not just personal. I've owned a 64 Mustang, 71 Pinto, 74 Maverick, an 82 and 96 Escort, an 02 and 03 Focus and my 03 Ranger truck with NO problems other than normal wear and tear, gas and oil, etc... I did have to replace the fuel pump in 82 Escort, it cost me 15 bucks at the bone yard and took ten minutes to replace.
I've owned a 79 Camaro, 84 Regal and an 86 Chrysler, all bought new and they were junk....I know that the eighties were tough on GM and Chrysler but nothing in the last twenty years leads me to think anything has changed. Ford didn't make a very good car then either.
I read the reviews, the reliability ratings and independent surveys and they all lead to the imports or Ford Motor Company...with all the information available at your fingertips, you should be able to make a reasoned decision.
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Get a pre-83 K5 Blazer, that will withstand an EMP without frying any computer controlled systems...cause it has none.
Oh, sorry,... :-\
The Rubicons hold up well, but ride like crap on the highway. The Yukon will leave you underwater faster than a house purchase in Las Vegas.
The Audi will push your price point, and maint./repairs are steep.
Tundra?
Sequoia?
Suburu too small for you?
Durango?
A used Hummer?
Perhaps a slightly used Tahoe. IMHO, a new car/truck/SUV/ is a waste, when one with 11,000 miles on it carries a factory warranty, and is not a hole in the road for price.
Test drive everything. One's available to meet your criteria.
I won't waste money on a new vehicle anymore, but one with a few thousand mile o
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I'm a Ford truck guy, but I'll bring one other thought to the table because you are interested in mileage, size, and price. I spent a couple of weeks in Montana. I rented a Subaru Outback. I'm not a huge wagon fan, but this thing was great. It had plenty of room for two people to camp out of for two weeks. It got good mileage. It was zippy in traffic and on the highway (remember Mt. has 75 mph speed limits on hilly roads). Its AWD and every third car in the Bozeman area seems to be a Subaru so people must like them. I mean literally, I pulled into a station and couldn't figure out how to open the gas tank (the rental company hadn't included the manual). >:( Anyway, I figure I'll just wait for the next Subaru to pull in. I wasn't there five minutes before another one did. This was weird as they are very rare here in Fl., but obviously are well suited to snowy, hilly country. I'm not sure I'd buy one, but I'd damn sure test drive one because I was very pleantly surprised by it.
FQ13
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Subaru's do have a great reputation, every one I have known that had one abused the hell out them for 10 years or so.
I believe Ford owns the company so that should make Tim happy too ;D
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Of the choices I would go GM, but I have a friend who moved to Colorado about a yr ago, and he had visiting there for some time and like other snowy parts of the country, he noticed that every 3rd car was a Subaru, so he bought a v6 Outback and loves it, AWD and it gets ( according to him, ) 26mpg on the hwy and he has had it up to 140 mph. By the way he is 6'4" tall. I worked as a technician in the 70's and early 80's, the company was real big on quality and service. By the company, I mean Subaru, they would warranty things, to my dismay, when way out of warranty.
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just something to think about if you get a AWD car/suv.
when it comes to tires, you must always buy 4. You can't buy 2 for example nor can you just buy 1 if you get a flat that can not be repaired.
while not a big deal, it is something you need to keep in mind about awd. It could mean a nail could be a $1000 fix. no tire company will give you 4 new tires , even with road hazard, they will only replace the damaged tire.
oh yeah with subaru were 1st imported they had to be dumbed in teh SF bay as they were so unsafe. the ship could not take them back lol.( no bull shit, it really did happen)
If you can keep your right foot out of it, you can get good milage with just about any car. most people can't ( cough my wife cough, ok well I did get her a car that its very hard to do that in lol.)
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I drove a Toyota 4 wheel drive of some kind for over 20 years. Last one was a POS. I now drive a 08 Wrangler X (2 door). Most fun I've had on 4 wheels. Mileage sucks , but I am helping to increase the world's temperature. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I would also suggest the Outback.
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My next ride is going to be a Tahoe. I'm just waiting for something to go wrong with my 11 year old Silverado so I have a reason to get rid of it.
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Subaru's do have a great reputation, every one I have known that had one abused the hell out them for 10 years or so.
I believe Ford owns the company so that should make Tim happy too ;D
Toyota is the company that owns a part of Subaru. To the OP, in all honesty in your situation, I would just lease a vehicle. There is a major chance of petrol prices continuing to climb for the next two years. The new Ecoboost V6 in the new Ford PU is supposed to be a very good engine. IIRC Dodge and GM are actually now developing diesels for their respective 1/2 ton PU/big SUVs. If the US for example decides to switch over to CNG for vehicles, because of oil prices/devaluing of the dollar) your son would be better off having you wait. One of the only good things about Fiat running Dodge is that they are worldwide leaders in CNG engines for vehicles. I love Jeep Wranglers but I would not buy one until they either come with the new Pentastar V6 or one of Fiat's diesels.
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just something to think about if you get a AWD car/suv.
when it comes to tires, you must always buy 4. You can't buy 2 for example nor can you just buy 1 if you get a flat that can not be repaired.
while not a big deal, it is something you need to keep in mind about awd. It could mean a nail could be a $1000 fix. no tire company will give you 4 new tires , even with road hazard, they will only replace the damaged tire.
Explain this for me, maybe I'm not reading it correctly. Out of all the vehicles I've ever owned only one hasn't been a 4WD and I don't understand what you're saying here. I've replaced a single tire plenty of time and pairs even more frequently and never had an issue or was told I couldn't/shouldn't do this. Depending on wear I've had to replace pairs when in a car tire I may have been able to get by with a single tire but as a general rule if I need to replace a tire that is 50% or less I will replace both on that axle. My current vehicle is full time AWD with 4WD hi/low on the fly. If I replace pairs I put the new pair on the front axle and the older pair on the rear since the front wears much faster. I've never had an issue doing this. I also had to replace a single tire when the other 3 were at around 70-75% tread and had no issues with that either.
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I too was going to challenge TAB on the tire issue. Having changed and sold tires all through high school, I've probably changed about 20K tires over those years, I might actually know a bit about this issue.
Personally, I've never had a flat that didn't occur in my driveway, lucky me. I could fix it with a plug and move on. If the flat hasn't been driven on, it should be fine unless the sidewall is compromised, then I would replace it or have it adjusted.
When I need tires, I won't replace less than two and I too put the new rubber on the drive axle and for me, that's the front with my sedan and the rear with my truck. I've never owned a 4WD and even though I've always lived in the North or Northeast, I've never needed one. The philosophy remains the same. If I have need to replace a single tire, I will do so but shortly after, I might replace the sister to maintain symmetry. That tire will then become the spare or a loose spare in the garage.
It has little to do with anything other than traction and even tire wear. It's a sales/marketing gimmick when you hear these old wives tales about replacing all four.
Arguing with TAB is a hobby but it will drive you crazy!
Some AWD systems may suggest that all four tires be replaced but the tread depth of 13/32 to a worn tread of 5/32 is a change in circumference that isn't that significant. I could be wrong.....
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here is the deal with AWD. when you have 1 wheel that is spining at a diffrent rate then all the others, it can and will wear out parts in the AWD system. It can also mess with some of the traction control systems in AWD( subbys and GM systems the most) remember small changes in hieght, can make huge diffrence in thier circumference
Lets just say your tires are 24" tall and have 1/8" of wear. that 1/8" is really 1/4"
so a new tire will be 24 1/4" tall.
now your old tires have a circumfrence of ~75.36" the new tire has is ~ 76.15 for a diffrence of .79"
now that does not sound like much, but there are 63360 inchs per mile. now divide that by your circufrences.
for every mile you travel your old tires will be rotating 840.76 times. the new tire will be rotating 832.04
but your awd is having to slip 8 rotations per mile.
There is not a car manufactor that makes a AWD that does not recomend you replace all the tires at once, large tire vendors also have policys about it as they don't want the liabilty if it does F up your AWD.
you are free to do what you like.
4wd systems are diffrent as they the spilt the power between 2 axles, awd spilt the power between all 4 wheels.
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here is the deal with AWD. when you have 1 wheel that is spining at a diffrent rate then all the others, it can and will wear out parts in the AWD system. It can also mess with some of the traction control systems in AWD( subbys and GM systems the most) remember small changes in hieght, can make huge diffrence in thier circumference
Lets just say your tires are 24" tall and have 1/8" of wear. that 1/8" is really 1/4"
so a new tire will be 24 1/4" tall.
now your old tires have a circumfrence of ~75.36" the new tire has is ~ 76.15 for a diffrence of .79"
now that does not sound like much, but there are 63360 inchs per mile. now divide that by your circufrences.
for every mile you travel your old tires will be rotating 840.76 times. the new tire will be rotating 832.04
but your awd is having to slip 8 rotations per mile.
ilt the power between 2 axles, awd spilt the power between all 4 wheels.
A difference in air pressure between tires can throw you off more than that and tires do not all build pressure at the same rate when driving.
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If you like the Silverado, get another one. Having said that, I know several Outback owners who LOVE their cars.
Whatever you do, do NOT put the Chevy Colorado on your list. It's like a Dodge Neon with an ornamental bed.
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I know Toyota has had a lot of 'splainin' to do lately, but we have a 2005 Toyota 4Runner that is an absolute tank. Needs a little fix now and then but it's always running and it's got good 4 wheel drive. I spun off into a front end crash with a tree once and it's still going.
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here is the deal with AWD. when you have 1 wheel that is spining at a diffrent rate then all the others, it can and will wear out parts in the AWD system. It can also mess with some of the traction control systems in AWD( subbys and GM systems the most) remember small changes in hieght, can make huge diffrence in thier circumference
Lets just say your tires are 24" tall and have 1/8" of wear. that 1/8" is really 1/4"
so a new tire will be 24 1/4" tall.
now your old tires have a circumfrence of ~75.36" the new tire has is ~ 76.15 for a diffrence of .79"
now that does not sound like much, but there are 63360 inchs per mile. now divide that by your circufrences.
for every mile you travel your old tires will be rotating 840.76 times. the new tire will be rotating 832.04
but your awd is having to slip 8 rotations per mile.
There is not a car manufactor that makes a AWD that does not recomend you replace all the tires at once, large tire vendors also have policys about it as they don't want the liabilty if it does F up your AWD.
you are free to do what you like.
4wd systems are diffrent as they the spilt the power between 2 axles, awd spilt the power between all 4 wheels.
Sounds somewhat logical however I too would've made the air pressure argument. I wasn't saying either of us was right or wrong, just that I've never heard that. I could see where it might make a difference on the same axle, maybe but really don't see where even a full inch of height would make a difference front to rear. I've probably put a million miles on 4X4's in my life time and never had any type of axle, gear or transfer case failure. I've changed gears by choice and have run every type of limited slip or locker configuration on the market. Maybe the fact that the bulk of my vehicles have had at least 33" or taller tires makes a difference. A 1/2" isn't really that much of a difference when it comes to that size tire, about 2# of pressure can lower a 1/2" on a 33" tire. Unlike the bulk of people who own 4X4 vehicles I use mine pretty regularly, at least once or twice a week now and at many times in my life daily. I have an onboard ARB compressor since I regularly adjust tire pressures for off road driving.
As a side note I just read through the entire tire section in my owners manual and I can't find anywhere in it that says or even recommends tires be changed only by 4's. There are lots of things about the AWD/4WD system but nothing about the tires related to it. I've got 85k on this particular one and had another that I had over 300K on with no issues either so I guess I'm not screwing up too badly with my tire management.