The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: wtr100 on January 10, 2011, 01:23:32 PM
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this seems highly unlikely to me
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It is my understanding that the quilted uniforms of the Chinese troop did stop M1 carbine rounds.
Comparison tests I did back in the early 90's showed the .30 carbine round to have less penetration than 9mm.
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Wow. That's sad.... How many Garands were used by comparison to the carbine during that battle?
I'll bet they were more effective.
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The Garand's and BAR's were indeed far more effective than carbines since they not only packed a lot more punch but they also had far less tendency to freeze up in the cold weather which was another serious draw back to the carbine.
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The Garand's and BAR's were indeed far more effective than carbines since they not only packed a lot more punch but they also had far less tendency to freeze up in the cold weather which was another serious draw back to the carbine.
I guess my Dad was correct .... makes the perfect officers rifle.
Pecos
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I guess my Dad was correct .... makes the perfect officers rifle.
Pecos
As a machinegun Section leader my Dad's issue weapon was a carbine, he traded it for a Garand.
That was mild compared to the squad that traded their MG (water cooled heavy SOB ) to the Black Watch for a case of gin ;D
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As a machinegun Section leader my Dad's issue weapon was a carbine, he traded it for a Garand.
That was mild compared to the squad that traded their MG (water cooled heavy SOB ) to the Black Watch for a case of gin ;D
Now that sounds like the GI's I knew.
Pecos
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He had to make them go get the gun back ;D
He had another story, His Company D 2/1 1st Mar Div was in a real quiet sector of the lines for a while, a patrol was sent out that included one of Dad's machine gun crews, when they returned the new Lt leading it was ape sh!t !
One of the ammo bearers fell and an ammo can popped open, it was empty, when the Lt. started berating the Marine for slacking he replied, "Why should I carry ammo when there aren't any guts in the gun".
The crew had removed the breech block and other internals and left them behind to decrease weight. ;D
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I've heard both sides. even the box of truth did a test on this.
I tend to agree with the idea that the rounds that did not go thru were bouncers.
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He had to make them go get the gun back ;D
He had another story, His Company D 2/1 1st Mar Div was in a real quiet sector of the lines for a while, a patrol was sent out that included one of Dad's machine gun crews, when they returned the new Lt leading it was ape sh!t !
One of the ammo bearers fell and an ammo can popped open, it was empty, when the Lt. started berating the Marine for slacking he replied, "Why should I carry ammo when there aren't any guts in the gun".
The crew had removed the breech block and other internals and left them behind to decrease weight. ;D
I'm surprised the Lt. didn't have an aneurism. Nothing sadder than a machine gun team yelling "Bang, Bang,Bang" during a Chinese charge. :o ::)
FQ13
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http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot36.htm
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I'm surprised the Lt. didn't have an aneurism. Nothing sadder than a machine gun team yelling "Bang, Bang,Bang" during a Chinese charge. :o ::)
FQ13
Hearing the Old man tell it he nearly did ;D
As I said, it was a quiet sector, and they knew they could get away with it.
Another time he said on of the rifle men came over to him with his ear all bloody, he said he was on watch (by this time Korea had settled into WWI style trench warfare ) and saw this "little gook" hauling out the "longest f*cking rifle he'd ever seen", said he was so amazed seeing this little guy actually trying to aim this huge rifle that he forgot to duck and got nicked in the ear.
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I find it very difficult to believe that a 110 gr FMJ bullet running at 1900 fps MV wouldn't penetrate even 5-7 quilted / heavy wollen jackets. Even if frozen.
Much more likely that these reports were a result of 1) misses , 2)ricochets 3) enemy hyped up on mix of adrenaline and/or drugs and not falling down 4) "GI lore"
Fail to disable and enemy? Maybe. Penetrate wool uniform...unlikely.
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KPR, It was pretty much common knowledge based on personal observations of Korean Vet's I have talked with over the years, It's also commented on in both the Book "Coldest war" (James Brady ? ) and a recent American Rifleman article on Korean war weapons. The M1 carbine is a great little rifle, but the cartridge sux.
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I find it very difficult to believe that a 110 gr FMJ bullet running at 1900 fps MV wouldn't penetrate even 5-7 quilted / heavy wollen jackets. Even if frozen.
Much more likely that these reports were a result of 1) misses , 2)ricochets 3) enemy hyped up on mix of adrenaline and/or drugs and not falling down 4) "GI lore"
Fail to disable and enemy? Maybe. Penetrate wool uniform...unlikely.
You forgot bad ammo.
Korea is a different kind of cold--like San Francisco plus North Dakota rolled together. NASTY. Put a steel pot on your head and OMG it would be cold.
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My Dad was a WWII vet in the Pacific theater in the Artillery, so the M1 Carbine was his issued weapon. Because of that, the M1 carbine is a favorite of mine. I had asked him about that very thing before he passed away and it was his opinion that those so called reports were total B.S.
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Experience with the carbine in hot humid climates has no bearing at all on their performance in snow at -20 F.
As a reverse example look at the P39 Bell Airacobra fighter plane. American and British pilots in Burma thought they were sh!t due to their lousy performance in hot wet climates, Russian pilots however loved them in the colder climate of the Eastern front where they were the preferred aircraft of some of the highest scoring aces.
Another more recent example would be the Soviet/Russian laser aiming system on their T80 tanks, works fine in the colder Russian climate, but the ones bought by India performed so poorly that India canceled the contract.
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We are really just guessing about what the composition of the uniforms.
Quilted implies the use of some type of batting inside the other layers and, for all we know, it might have been a cotton and wire mesh sandwich they used for batting. That would still have a lot of flexibility.
I am not sure what the effect of those cold temps would have either. My guess would be that the steel rifle barrel would contract more than the copper/lead bullet which would constrict the bore raising resistance and pressure. Don't know if the resistance would be enough to slow the round significantly without blowing the action.
On the other hand, if the bullet contracts more it would be a loose fit and perhaps enough pressure would be lost to make a velocity difference.
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Tombogan
I hesitate to say this, because it makes me sound like I'm calling vets liars...not my intent. That said, I'm not sure I trust "personal recollections" of vets all that much. There are MANY myths that float around that become legend in the military that are patently false.
M16s not requiring cleaning early in Vietnam is one...drill sargeants were even preaching this. "The .45 will blow a man's arm clean off". "All you have to do is hit a man with a .45 in the arm and it will kill him". That little commie gun can't hit anything at 200 yards. There are still recent vets who swear that the "5.56 tumbles in flight, that's why its so deadly". Urban legends are hard to stamp out and even make it into literature.
If I can see proven scientific evidence, I'm happy to eat my words.
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What a timely post, as it happens there is a crusty old vet who wears a "Chosin Few" hat everywhere comes into where I work several times a month and he was here today, so I asked him about this. He served with the USMC 3/7 and was there as he says for the "whole shebang". Quote: "anyone who says the 30 carbine couldn't punch holes through chink uniforms is full of s***... it punched through just fine! The problem was it didn't usually kill the little f***s very good!" According to him the problem with the 30 carbines was "ammo that didn't always go bang, poor maintainence and they didn't work worth a damn in the cold".
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I find it very difficult to believe that a 110 gr FMJ bullet running at 1900 fps MV wouldn't penetrate even 5-7 quilted / heavy wollen jackets. Even if frozen.
Much more likely that these reports were a result of 1) misses , 2)ricochets 3) enemy hyped up on mix of adrenaline and/or drugs and not falling down 4) "GI lore"
Fail to disable and enemy? Maybe. Penetrate wool uniform...unlikely.
I've seen 30.06 fail to penetrate the skull of a pig. When I say seen, I mean I was the one doing the shooting. So yes it can happen...
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I've seen 30.06 fail to penetrate the skull of a pig. When I say seen, I mean I was the one doing the shooting. So yes it can happen...
Yes, but...as my scientist friends like to say..."the plural of anecdote is not data".
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Believe as you wish.
Personally I would not trust my life to it.
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Yes, but...as my scientist friends like to say..."the plural of anecdote is not data".
true, but it does not mean it can't happen and it happen twice in a row that day, I have a scar on my leg from that day. damn thing hit me and fell over dead about 10' past me
2 arrows and 3 30.06...
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Believe as you wish.
Personally I would not trust my life to it.
Don't get me wrong...I didn't in any way say I think the .30 Carbine is a great military round. I just don't believe that they bounced off of NoKo and ChiCom wool coats.
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2 arrows and 3 30.06...
Yup...I had a hot .45 Colt glance off of a boars head that was charging. Dang things are tough.
(http://i51.tinypic.com/5lcf90.jpg)
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They weren't wool, if they had been the Chinese would not have had so many troops freeze to death.
They were cotton, with cotton quilting, which, while it sux for cold weather, is tough enough that in the late 70's the Soviets were using wadded cotton in anti fragmentation vests .
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I wonder if the carbine would be better if it was chambered for the .357 magnum round.
What do you think?
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Yup...I had a hot .45 Colt glance off of a boars head that was charging. Dang things are tough.
(http://i51.tinypic.com/5lcf90.jpg)
KPR....next time just clock him with the butt of that Ruger....should stop him cold!
;D
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the m1 was designed and spected for a gun that was inbetween a hand gun and a rifle. it was to be issued to non combative troups. It was only after the "handyness" of the rifle was descovered that combat troups used them.
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the m1 was designed and spected for a gun that was inbetween a hand gun and a rifle. it was to be issued to non combative troups. It was only after the "handyness" of the rifle was descovered that combat troups used them.
And by handyness you mean a lot less weight to hump.
Same reason people carry .380's for CCW today.
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I wonder if the carbine would be better if it was chambered for the .357 magnum round.
What do you think?
Definitely ! the .357 has showed it's capabilities in lever guns for years, M25 told me about a guy he knows that does that, custom m-1's in better calibers, I know he mentioned .357, but there were others as well, 44 and 10mm IIRC.
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M1 carbine in 10 mm :o :o
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M1 carbine in 10 mm :o :o
i'll raise you 7.62 tok or 9x25 dillon. ;D
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Could it be done in 454 ?
TAB, the only problem I see with the 7.62 X 25 is in bullets, far as I know all that is available is ball ammo.
The others have been used in hunting and SD enough for there to be a wider variety of projectile designs available.
Seems to have plenty of velocity though.
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.357 is less powerful than .30 carbine. I don't think it would perform any better with ball ammo.
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A .30 carbine will penetrate completely an old creosote covered telephone pole, it does have penetration, I talked to Corbon and Hornaday many yrs ago about making and XTP bullet for it and Corbon beefing it up a bit, but alas no action, although they were both interested. Hard to find these days, but a friend of mine was working on loading the sabot Remington bullets in .30 Mauser/Tokarev in theory, a 45 -50 grain .224 bullet in a sabot, would do over 2k fps, still has not scienced it out. But good idea. This would be out of a Tokarev or Broom handle mauser.
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.357 is less powerful than .30 carbine. I don't think it would perform any better with ball ammo.
Even if that were accurate the fact remains that while the .30 Carbine is limited to FMJ, the .357 is not.
M25, I seldom disagree with you but this time I must, back in the early 90's I did side by side penetration tests with the .30 Carbine M-1, 9mm pistol, and .357 Revolver. While the .357 and 9mm had no problem penetrating .060 cold rolled sheet mtal the Carbine merely left a dent with a split at the bottom before bouncing off, .125 aluminum stopped it cold, until I got divorced I had the plate with the carbine round stuck in it with the Magnum and 9mm holes on either side.
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Could it be done in 454 ?
TAB, the only problem I see with the 7.62 X 25 is in bullets, far as I know all that is available is ball ammo.
The others have been used in hunting and SD enough for there to be a wider variety of projectile designs available.
Seems to have plenty of velocity though.
They do magsafe rounds, JHP as well as FMJ in 7.62x25mm as well as a sabot round using a 5.56mm bullet... Not sure about a soft point... yet anyways...
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One other thing to consider....a lot of Chinese and NK soldiers, knowing that they'd be part of a human wave charge, would put pieces of scrap metal inside their coats to ac as an ersatz trauma plate. Of course, .30 Carbine wouldn't have a chance against that...even some .30-06 would have trouble penetrating that at distance...
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Overcome and adapt. Putting aircraft aluminum, boiler plate, scrap steel, metal decking, whatever. Think about it,....we would do the same. Regardless of political crap.
We would make our own also, in the face of our enemy. Whatever it takes. I'm not condoning it, but merely pointing out a fundamental self preservation instinct that would strike us as a necessity when faced with the same scenario.
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I think there was a company or individual was converting M-1 carbines to .45 Winchester Mag about 30-35 years ago. I think they stopped after having problems with receivers cracking. It was a looooong tome ago that I resd about, so I may not have the details correct.
Just googled it. It was Lemag Corp. 45 Winchester Mag. Standard magazine feed lips were altered.
Another edit: Found this write up on M-1 Carbine conversions.
http://www.thegunzone.com/carbine-wildcat.html
Frank, Lemag was/is in Fenton MI.
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I think there was a company or individual was converting M-1 carbines to .45 Winchester Mag about 30-35 years ago. I think they stopped after having problems with receivers cracking. It was a looooong tome ago that I resd about, so I may not have the details correct.
Just googled it. It was Lemag Corp. 45 Winchester Mag. Standard magazine feed lips were altered.
It wasn't that long ago. It didn't seem to kick too bad but it bruised my shoulder.
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Experience with the carbine in hot humid climates has no bearing at all on their performance in snow at -20 F.
Very true. I think the cold weather has more to do with the poor performance of the .30 Carbine ammunition than what the enemy was wearing. Extreme cold can have a very detrimental effect on the performance of ammo. Especially back in the 40's when powder technology was nowhere near as advanced as it is today. A lot of the newer double based, modern powders perform better in extreme cold, and are less sensitive to it, but are still effected by it in a negative way.
A maximum load in 100+ degree temperatures could in fact become a dangerous overload. In the other extreme in very cold weather, performance could be effected to the point where velocity was poor enough to cause reduced penetration. I have a Ruger Blackhawk in .30 Carbine, and in just playing around with it, one of the things that impressed me the most about it was it's ability to penetrate. It had no trouble penetrating 8" diameter fence posts and trees much the same. This was in the Summer with temperatures over 100 degrees. One of the downsides to the Ruger Blackhawk in this caliber is the difficult extraction that sometimes goes along with shooting high pressure ammo in it. I have gotten into the habit of taking along a small diameter Aluminum rod and a plastic mallet to tap out some of the more stubborn cases, instead of continually banging on the ejector rod. I noticed when I shoot the gun in the Winter, or with my handloads, this does not occur. Bill T.
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I was wondering about the weather and how it might effect the ammo, BUT not just a cold thing. Different metals expand & contract differently with hot/cold. I wonder if that could have contaminated the powder in the rounds, specialty going in & out of "warm" tents & buildings and back to the freezing cold...
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I was wondering about the weather and how it might effect the ammo, BUT not just a cold thing. Different metals expand & contract differently with hot/cold. I wonder if that could have contaminated the powder in the rounds, specialty going in & out of "warm" tends & buildings and back to the freezing cold...
That was why my Dad ditched his. Said if you went into a bunker then back outside it froze up solid. The metal would sweat in the warmer bunker and the condensation would freeze when you took it back outside. Either the Garand didn't have that problem, (doubtful, steel will react the same regardless ) or the 06 cartridge had enough oomph to overcome it.
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That was why my Dad ditched his. Said if you went into a bunker then back outside it froze up solid. The metal would sweat in the warmer bunker and the condensation would freeze when you took it back outside. Either the Garand didn't have that problem, (doubtful, steel will react the same regardless ) or the 06 cartridge had enough oomph to overcome it.
The '60 might not have the same issues, alot more powder (and a different type of powder?) so percentage wise, less would be effected by any moisture that got thru, past the bullet. Also, the 30-06 round is longer and seated better then the 30 carbine round is. How it's make... If you look at the bullet profiles, I think you'll see what I mean... The carbine bullet is shot and smooth sided, not alot for the cartridge neck to "grip" vs the '06 round, alot longer, same caliber and ridges for the case to "grip"...
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I had not thought of the effect on the powder, his comments were about the action, same rules should apply though with heat and cold ???
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I had not thought of the effect on the powder, his comments were about the action, same rules should apply though with heat and cold ???
Yes, same effect on the metal and condensation and that dampness has to go someplace. I'll toss out there to add that to the cloth mag & ammo holders of the day... Just sounds like it could add to the issues...
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Interesting point, look at how a soda can will "weep". Then consider that powder attracts moisture.....
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I've heard stores that during the battle of the bulgde, guys would pee on thier M1Gs to unfreeze them and they worked just fine.
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Interesting point, look at how a soda can will "weep". Then consider that powder attracts moisture.....
Right, it does make you wonder if it was not the bullets & pouches not so much the gun. The gun has done well in test after test after test... I'm not one to think GI's would outright lie, exaggerate, sure, but not many would outright lie... So let's think of what COULD cause the outcome some GI's saw... I think we might be on that track...
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I've heard stores that during the battle of the bulgde, guys would pee on thier M1Gs to unfreeze them and they worked just fine.
HW McBride tells of Canadian Gunners in WWI pissing on the watercooled guns when they ran out of water. Problem was when they needed to , they couldn't. ;D
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HW McBride tells of Canadian Gunners in WWI pissing on the watercooled guns when they ran out of water. Problem was when they needed to , they couldn't. ;D
Now I'd think being shot at or a mass wave attack would be enough to scare the piss out of them.....
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Now I'd think being shot at or a mass wave attack would be enough to scare the piss out of them.....
Yeah, it already had...
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I meant to add another question for TAB,
Have you ever peed on a hot stove, or camp fire ? :o
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I meant to add another question for TAB,
Have you ever peed on a hot stove, or camp fire ? :o
stove no, camp fire yes. its a great way to help put it out.
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The stench tends to clear crowds as well :o
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when I go camping there are no crowds...
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I can understand why. ;D
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I could tell you stroys about camping...
let me put it this way, there is a local lake that banned booze on land( on the water is fine) I'm pretty sure some of the partys that me and a few other friends thru there are the reason for it...
;D