The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: rat31465 on January 26, 2011, 10:51:25 AM
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I've never been the type to make New Years resolutions but I did so this year. I have put off taking the training class and making application as required for my CCW permit here in Missouri for the last few years but have resolved to do so in 2011.
It came to my attention that I was severely lacking in an acceptable CCW platform so I will be correcting that in the next couple of weeks with the purchase of a New Model 19 Gen 3 Glock....Having owned them in the past I know this will be a good choice for my needs.
I intend to make a couple of common sense updates to the 19 after purchasing it with the idea that reliability comes first and foremost over all else.
The first mod I have in mind is the addition of a set of after market sights, my criteria is that they not be of the plastic variety and that they be smooth and not likely to hang up drawing from under a garment.
Looking around I am leaning hard towards the Heinie Slant Pro line just haven't decided if I want the 318 or the 3190? It's my understanding that the only difference is the 3190 has a wider and deeper cut rear notch for quicker acquisition and better low light visibility....and was hoping that someone might be able to add a little (No pun intended) insight to this question?
Other modifications I want to complete is the addition of the New York Trigger spring and a 3.5 disconnector...I am undecided though on if I want to also add an extended mag release such as the Zev Tech Extended Magazine Release (offered on the GlockStore.Com website?)
With the Glock riding in a CrossBreed Super Tuck Deluxe...after a few hundred rounds of practice ammo to wring out the gun I hope to be well equipped and prepared for the qualification portion of the CCW class and for carrying in the next couple of months.
I would appreciate any comments from those with experience in this equipment...and suggestions for other mods that might be useful to the Mod 19 as the ones I have owned in the past were all box stock.
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I'd suggest you shoot that "few hundred rounds" first without any mods. If you are hitting your targets and able to make follow up shots then leave the gun stock. Get that CCW then take that training class.
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I'd suggest you shoot that "few hundred rounds" first without any mods. If you are hitting your targets and able to make follow up shots then leave the gun stock. Get that CCW then take that training class.
Wise advice.
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I would shoot several hundred rounds first. They have very good factory nightsights available. Not sure but a new york trigger is heavier, and a 3.5 conector is lighter
Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
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I would deep six the plastic sights for a more durable set, then spend the rest on practice ammo. The ny trigger makes the trigger about 12 to 14 lbs not a good thing in a SD pistol.
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For God's sake don't add the NY triger. It sucks beyond the telling (the words New York ought to be warning enough ;D). The standard 5.5 pound with the break is just fine. As far as sights, I wouldn't mess with them unless you want tritium. The only thing I would think about is a laser. I've never used one, but you can get a Glock laser that just replaces the guide rod so it doesn't change the grip or make it hard to find a holster. Still the consensus is correct. Shoot the heck out of the stock model first. Then buy a solution for any problems YOU find. Don't assume problems where there might not be any. It'll save you money.
FQ13
PS my G-19 has the night sights. They have faded after about ten years. I'm curently debating replacing them or just fixing them with some white nail polish. I'll probably go with the latter as I hardly ever shoot or carry the thing since I got my G-26.
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I agree that for the most part shooting a new gun first before making any mods is preferrable and it is not my attention to pooh pooh anyones advice here as it is genuinely appreciated.
That being said perhaps I should have been a little more descriptive of this in my initial posting.
I have a considerable amount of experience with the Glock platform....having owned many Glocks in just about every caliber and configuration available in the Gen-2 and Gen-3 guns.
A couple of them were customized to differing degrees depending upon what my intended use was for them at the time.
I have owned three of the compact models, two of those being 19's in the past, but never had one specifically for a CCW gun.
I guess my real questions are more in line with the selection of the Heinie Slant Pro Sights...and the use of the extended mag release for a Concealed Carry gun...I do plan on getting rid of the factory plastic sights...thus my question about the Slant Pro's.
I had a 1911 with Heinie sights on it that I used for IPSC back in the mid 1980's...the Slant Pro's seem to be highly recommended for the Glock 19 platform. I just haven't found anyone with real life experience on the Heinie 3190 Qwik 3-D sight. The rear sight has a notch cut .156" wide and .120" deep for quicker sight picture acqusition.
As for the mag release my concerns are with accidental mag releases during the draw from the extended button...some say this fear is unfounded...but I have had it happen in a Desantis speed rig during a match, so it seems possible tcould happen drawing from concealment.
I know the stock trigger is a useable trigger for me but in the future I know I will be making some mods to the trigger group anyway...I made the NY Trigger Mod with the 3.5 connector in the past to a previous Model 17 Gen-3 ..I came out with a very smooth trigger that broke cleanly in the 5 pound range. The NY trigger spring mod is said to improve the resetting qualities being that it is a push to compress spring and not a pull to load type.
As far as shooting the gun goes...I relaod just about every caliber that I currently own or have ever owned...this includes some .32 acp, .380 acp and the 9 mm...so getting familiar with this pistol isn't going to be an issue.
The class I spoke of is a requirement prior to making application in Missouri...8-hours of classroom followed by a live fire qualification. The qualification requires that you shoot 75%...a 15 out of 20 is what the website says...at 7 yards...I use to shoot IPSC and some PPC matches so I am really not to worried about that portion of the testing.
As I stated guys...I appreciate any advice...and I don't dismiss even the most basic of it...I'm a believer in the K.I.S.S. concepts for the most part and I think too many times we tend to forget about the basics in favor of the newest and flashiest.
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I wonder about your choice of sights. Many trainers advocate using the sights as a way to manipulate the gun one handed. A set of smooth low profile sights takes away that ability. You may take a look at the other types of sights that have a ledge on the front side of the rear sight. Then again I haven't made this change to my SD pistols yet so I am kind of being a hypocrite here.
Enjoy your new Glock.
Sean
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Put XS big dot tritium on my G27 really helps my old eyes my dad said it's kinda like looking at a headlight.And it supports DRTV
I do not work for XS Sight Systems & paid retail.
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If you find that you want to change the sights look at Warren Tactical. I have a set of the two dot night sights on a G23 and the black rear/fiber front on a G17. One thing to keep in mind though is the fiber/plain set definately is more picky with ammo. Win white box is on/on but UMC yellow bulk packs shoot LOW. I haven't noticed much difference with the night set, but I tend to only use them same ammo.
The NY-1 spring and 3.5# disconnect does make a little difference in "spongy-ness" at least in my G17. It is a little smoother but not heavier than the stock G23.
That said, the best mod for CCW is only the sights, maybe, since any mechanical mod is a liability issue if you actually have to use it. IMHO "He modified the gun to make it easier to shoot faster..."
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I'd suggest you shoot that "few hundred rounds" first without any mods. If you are hitting your targets and able to make follow up shots then leave the gun stock. Get that CCW then take that training class.
That said, the best mod for CCW is only the sights, maybe, since any mechanical mod is a liability issue if you actually have to use it. IMHO "He modified the gun to make it easier to shoot faster..."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That 'bout sums up what I was going to post.
I carry a G27 when not carrying my 1911 (winter mostly on the 1911)...and the only mod is the addition of tritium sights. I chose Ameri-Glo, but would not recommend them because they started to dim significantly after just two years (advertised as having 10+ yr life) and the company return policy is crap (whole other thread).
Whatever sights you choose, I would highly recommend that the rear sight have a good square edge on the front of the sight. As others have already mentioned, this will allow one-handed slide manipulation on a belt, pants, holster, table, etc.....
Best of luck on whatever you decide......and get going on that CCW permit. :D
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While I've not owned it, I do like the XS sight concept. My G23 came the Tritium, which are cool, but will dim after a couple of years. You might look at some form of rugged fiber optic sights. I really love mine on my XDs. Everyone who's tried my guns, goes, "wow, that easy to see."
I might have a smith "smooth" the trigger pull, but I wouldn't change it from the factory weight for CCW.
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Find sights that work for you and get them. The trigger mods for an SD pistol carries "more" than just a "tweaked" trigger. God forbid any of us have to use a firearm in an SD situation.
With that being said, every instructor, training program, etc,....stipulates "What happens after the shooting?"
Well,
You will be investigated six ways from Sunday. The firearm may be kept as evidence and examined. If the BG survives, or the family sues you in civil court, the DA, or ambulance chasing lawyer, is going to love the chance to provide a jury the info about your happy "hair trigger" modification.
We all know this is BS, but never think it doesn't happen.
My G21, is due for some night sights also. For a tourney/comp gun, I say all the tweaks and mods the better. For a carry gun, less is more.
My humble .02 cents.
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Agreed whole heartedly. It one of the perks of the Glock. "I just bought it because its what the cops carry. I thought that meant it was safe and reliable". ;)
FQ13
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Check out the Warren/Sovengy (sp?) sights. Also, since you are familiar w/Glocks, try to find instructions for a .25 trigger job...just a fluff and buff with no changing of parts. Might do you.
FWIW
Richard
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Well guy's...I went looking for a Glock Model 19 today. My budget was limited but I found a shop who could get me a new Gen 3 Glock model 19 for $489.00... Since I was already planning to modify it to meet my needs I thought I would try first searching for a used one before buying new....the idea being that any money I spent below the $489 would go towards parts, Holsters other accessories and ammo.
Now a few weeks ago I was in a gunshop that I had worked at many years ago and left that day suffering from sticker shock after pricing some of the newest and coolest Higher End smaller framed autoloaders.
Fast forward to today...I found a Glock mod 19 Gen 2 for a decent price and was all set to buy it when the Owner of the shop called me over and showed me a KAHR P9 he had just taken in on trade. He asked if I was still interested in a small frame 9X19 and shot me a very tempting price on it.
As it turns out I happened to know the person who traded it in...and after a quick call discovered that it had been his wifes and he related to me that it had less than a full fifty round box of Wal-Mart special 115 gr Winchester Target/Range shot through it. He said his wife just didn't like it so they traded it in on a .38 Spl Ladysmith.
I am now the proud owner of a very lightly used P9...should make for a first rate CCW gun and I still had money in the budget for ammo...Now I just have to find a holster.
(http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/oo111/rat31465/100_3340.jpg)
Thanks for all the advice and insight here...I guess at least I did stay with a Polymer Framed 9X19..... ;D
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I would have got the Glock.
The only thing I would do is replace the sights with tritium F/O.
Lasers and all that other crap may be fine, but they need to be turned on AND activated, and batteries die at the worst possible time. As for hanging a flash light on it, when you hear a sound at 3:00 AM do you really want to be pointing a loaded gun at your wife or kid who decided to get a glass of water ?
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I hate to chime in with "Miss Congeniality Bogan" but I agree. You've got the Kahr and its a nice gun. Still, think abbout it and shoot it. Figure if its right. If so, good on you, if not, you can always trade. It should be more accurate than the Glock though. Reliability wise...... :-X
FQ13
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Before you put sights on your new Kahr, do find a gun with the XS sights installed and see how you like them. Give them a chance and remember they will seem "different" to you.
I have the XS Big Dot sight sight on my Glock 23
I have the Heinie Straight 8 sights on my Glock 21 and I have the Advantage Tactical Sight on my Glock 21SF
Of the 3, the XS sights are, by far, the quickest and easiest to acquire.
I would love to see the LaserLyte offer their product with the XS sight.
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I have read the reliability stories on the Kahr's function and admittedly I was a bit concerned about them..at first.
A person whom I trust very much has owned and carries a Kahr P9 himself on duty and is the one who has convinced me to give the Kahr's a try.
I believe they are kinda like a high pertformance engine...you have to stay on top of them to keep them performing at their peak...honestly thats not a problem for me.
The benefits of their concealability to me out weigh the necessary maintenance behind owning one...besides...I haven't given up on the idea of buying a Glock Model 19...just put it off for my next project as a back upto my main carry gun.
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I don't know much about Kahr guns.
What I've read is pretty good. I just found them really expensive for a plastic pistol. The ironic thing about them is they're manufactured in Worcester, MA, a city in the middle of the state where the asshat Chief of Police makes it almost impossible to get a license to carry permit. You can manage to get one, but he usually denies the first time and makes you go to arbitration with the firearms board. He even tried to outlaw pocket knives.
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I agree that for the most part shooting a new gun first before making any mods is preferrable and it is not my attention to pooh pooh anyones advice here as it is genuinely appreciated.
That being said perhaps I should have been a little more descriptive of this in my initial posting.
I have a considerable amount of experience with the Glock platform....having owned many Glocks in just about every caliber and configuration available in the Gen-2 and Gen-3 guns.
A couple of them were customized to differing degrees depending upon what my intended use was for them at the time.
I have owned three of the compact models, two of those being 19's in the past, but never had one specifically for a CCW gun.
I guess my real questions are more in line with the selection of the Heinie Slant Pro Sights...and the use of the extended mag release for a Concealed Carry gun...I do plan on getting rid of the factory plastic sights...thus my question about the Slant Pro's.
I had a 1911 with Heinie sights on it that I used for IPSC back in the mid 1980's...the Slant Pro's seem to be highly recommended for the Glock 19 platform. I just haven't found anyone with real life experience on the Heinie 3190 Qwik 3-D sight. The rear sight has a notch cut .156" wide and .120" deep for quicker sight picture acqusition.
As for the mag release my concerns are with accidental mag releases during the draw from the extended button...some say this fear is unfounded...but I have had it happen in a Desantis speed rig during a match, so it seems possible tcould happen drawing from concealment.
I know the stock trigger is a useable trigger for me but in the future I know I will be making some mods to the trigger group anyway...I made the NY Trigger Mod with the 3.5 connector in the past to a previous Model 17 Gen-3 ..I came out with a very smooth trigger that broke cleanly in the 5 pound range. The NY trigger spring mod is said to improve the resetting qualities being that it is a push to compress spring and not a pull to load type.
As far as shooting the gun goes...I relaod just about every caliber that I currently own or have ever owned...this includes some .32 acp, .380 acp and the 9 mm...so getting familiar with this pistol isn't going to be an issue.
The class I spoke of is a requirement prior to making application in Missouri...8-hours of classroom followed by a live fire qualification. The qualification requires that you shoot 75%...a 15 out of 20 is what the website says...at 7 yards...I use to shoot IPSC and some PPC matches so I am really not to worried about that portion of the testing.
As I stated guys...I appreciate any advice...and I don't dismiss even the most basic of it...I'm a believer in the K.I.S.S. concepts for the most part and I think too many times we tend to forget about the basics in favor of the newest and flashiest.
I agree with replacing the plastic sights with steel sights of some type before carrying. This is by far the weak point of Glock design. I've seen many factory rear sights that got knocked out in extreme use/carry. I personally have to shorten the mag releases for all my carry Glocks, not extend them. I'm a lefty and carry IWB strong side and have had many issues in the past with the mag release being hit without my knowledge. It's really bad in Kydex. In leather I usually drill or punch out a portion of the holster that rides above the button but still always radius the edges off the button and shorten it a bit. I really have this problem on my LCP's. I wish they made a model with a heel mag release since it's not a combat, quick mag change type of pistol anyway. On one of my LCP's I've shortened the button to the point it barely extends from the frame.
Anyway back to the Glocks, I've done some of the trigger jobs you're talking about with the New York trigger and 3.5# disconnector (I prefer the ZevTech) and lighter springs. If you go this route it is pretty much what you described, 5-6# trigger with a short reset, good carry trigger. Make sure you use the heavier striker spring with it since even the factory in that setup has had hard primer issues. I've used the Heine sights before, I had them on my limited gun for a long time. They are nice but it's all personal preference when it comes to sights. I personally prefer XS big dots on all my SD/carry pistols yet some people hate them. The thing about a Glock is you really don't need to mess with much, the old if it ain't broke don't fix it theory. Plastic sights are crap beyond that do what works for you.
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My $0.02:
I'm not going to read through three pages for this question, so if it's already been stated, forgive me.
The addition of Night Sights are something that I think are worth the money. You were wondering about having a wider notch on the rear sight. This is a worthy addition, in my opinion. It makes picking up the front sight faster, while allowing you to make those precise shots when you need to. I like the 10-8 Sights myself.
As to the NY1/3.5 Trigger, I'm a fan of it. It gives a more positive reset from my expirience. I have had them on my Glocks in the past, and will again in the future. My spouse prefers the standard trigger, so my Glocks are set up to mimic her's. I don't often carry a Glock, as I prefer other platforms. The NY1/3.5 Trigger harkens back to the days of old when revolvers ruled the roost. It is reminiscent of a revolver's trigger stroke. If you are a revolver shooter you might like the NY1/3.5 set up.
I like that the NY1/3.5 has a consistant take-up without all the spongeyness of the typical Block trigger. If you shoot from reset, which I do, it is a more positive feeling of reset when compared to the standard trigger. The NY1/3.5 is an approved Glock modification for duty use. That means you will be staying within factory specifications with your firearm if you ever need to justify it to a jury. There are law enforcement agencies issuing the same trigger set-up, so documentation on it will be easy to locate for your lawyer to use at your trial.
Give it a try. The worst that can happen would be that you decide you don't like it. It's cheap enough that you should be able to afford to scrap it if it's not your cup of tea.
Biker
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Great read and really enjoyed reading the input. I was too late to say anything and most had already been covered. Nice Kahr but I would have purchased the Glock instead. If you like it rat31465, that is all that matters.
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Slanted rear sights were a 90's fad gone wrong.. I fell for it too. What were we thinking? No noubt, it had something to do with the ridiculous clearing of "stovepipes" by wiping the hand over the gun... a silly 80's fad.
Getting hung up during presentation?? The BACK of the front sight is the surface that would get hung up, not the front.
Anyway: yes, new sights, but they should be flat fronted. Even on the Kahr.
-RJP