The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: david86440 on January 28, 2011, 12:29:23 AM
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I know armor-piercing handgun ammo is already on the CA law books as a no-no so I'm not sure where he is going with this new bill.
Armor-Piercing Bullets
It is unlawful for any person to manufacture, sell, or knowingly possess or transport handgun
ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor. (Penal Code §§ 12320, 12321.)
Handgun ammunition means ammunition principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other
firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of section 12001,
notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles. (Penal Code § 12323(a).)
Handgun ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor means any ammunition,
except a shotgun shell or ammunition primarily designed for use in rifles, that is designed primarily
to penetrate a body vest or body shield. (Penal Code § 12323(b).)
Body vest or shield means any bullet-resistant material intended to provide ballistic and trauma
protection for the wearer or holder. (Penal Code § 12323(c).)
Can anyone tell me what is considered "cop killer" ammo?
By THOMAS WATKINS Associated Press
Posted: 01/27/2011 07:22:54 PM PST
Updated: 01/27/2011 08:51:07 PM PST
LOS ANGELES—A state senator said Thursday he has introduced legislation aimed at protecting California's decades-old ban on armor-piercing ammunition.
Sen. Kevin De Leon said he was concerned gun activists would target what he called "cop-killer" bullets after a judge last week tossed key sections of a different state law that would have restricted handgun ammunition sales.
That law, also introduced by De Leon and due to take effect next month, would have forced the buyers of handgun ammunition to show ID and leave a thumbprint on a pad at the time of purchase.
In a move welcomed by gun rights supporters, a trial judge in Fresno last week said key sections of the law relied on definitions of handgun ammunition in the state penal code that were so vaguely written they were unconstitutional. The penal code language also outlined a ban on armor-piercing bullets.
De Leon said that in his new bill, he had amended the language so that no future gun rights lawsuit could challenge the state's ban on armor-piercing bullets.
"The gun lobby clearly will not be satisfied until it has stripped all of California's rational regulations governing the sale and possession of ammunition," De Leon said.
A call to California Rifle and Pistol Association Foundation attorney Chuck Michel was not immediately returned.
De Leon was joined by several local law enforcement officials including Los Angeles Sheriff Lee Baca and police Chief Charlie Beck.
Attorney General Kamala Harris is considering an appeal to the ruling against De Leon's original bill that would have required restrictions on handgun ammunition sales.
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The gun lobby clearly will not be satisfied until it has stripped all of California's rational regulations governing the sale and possession of ammunition," De Leon said.
Yep. Here sir, we pretty much agree. The only point of disagreement? That there is no such animal as "rational and reasonable" regulation of ammunition beyond what the market dictates. Oddly enough, armor piercing bullets aren't exactly flying off the shelves. The rational and reasonable regulation is happening on its own.
FQ13
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PathFinder should know this, John C Fremont took California for America by force. Maybe it's time to do it again, we had to kick the crap out of Germany twice before the lesson took.
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Here is an interesting take on "Cop Killer" bullets........
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvcopk.html
Knowledge is power. As a police officer I strive to acquire as much knowledge as possible regarding the potential threats I may have to face. Obviously the threat posed by an armed criminal is high on my list of concerns. In researching that potential threat I've learned that the public perception and media portrayal of the matter is far from realistic. The subject of so called "Cop-killer" bullets is a prime example.
The inflammatory headlines aren't hard to find; "Deadly Teflon Bullets Blast Through Police Vests"; "NRA Opposes Cop Killer Bullet Ban," etc. Likewise, the misleading scenes in television crime dramas and in movies are numerous. A memorable scene in one of the "Lethal Weapon" movies had Mel Gibson's character firing "Cop-killer" bullets through the blade of a bulldozer! The real story is significantly less dramatic.
In the mid 1960's, Dr. Paul Kopsch (an Ohio coroner), Daniel Turcos (a police sergeant) and Donald Ward (Dr. Kopsch's special investigator) began experimenting with special purpose handgun ammunition. Their objective was to develop a law enforcement round capable of improved penetration against hard targets like windshield glass and automobile doors. Conventional bullets, made primarily from lead, are often ineffective against hard targets especially when fired at handgun velocities. In the 1970's, Kopsch, Turcos and Ward produced their "KTW" handgun ammunition using steel cored bullets capable of great penetration. Following further experimentation, in 1981 they began producing bullets constructed primarily of brass. The hard brass bullets caused exceptional wear on handgun barrels, a problem combated by coating the bullets with Teflon. The Teflon coating did nothing to improve penetration, it simply reduced damage to the gun barrel.
Despite the facts that "KTW" ammunition had never been available to the general public and that no police officer has ever been killed by a handgun bullet penetrating their body armor, the media incorrectly reported that the Teflon coated bullets were designed to defeat the body armor that law enforcement officers were beginning to use. The myth of "Cop-killer" bullets was born.
In January of 1982, NBC Television broadcast a sensationalist prime time special titled "Cop Killer Bullets." Law enforcement officials had asked NBC not to air the program as the use of body armor by police officers was still not common knowledge and the "KTW" ammunition was virtually unheard of outside law enforcement circles. The safety of law enforcement officers took a back seat to ratings at NBC however and they not only broadcast the show, but re-broadcast it again six months later.
Following significant media hype and widespread misconceptions, Congress got into the act and proposed legislation that would have outlawed any bullet based on its ability to penetrate certain bullet resistant material. The FBI, Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, and other forensic experts cautioned that the proposed ban was too vague to be enforceable. The NRA opposed the proposed law since it would have banned not only the controversial armor piercing handgun rounds, but nearly all conventional rifle ammunition as well. (Most rifle ammunition will easily penetrate the most commonly worn protective vests.)
The NRA proposed alternative legislation based upon the actual design and construction of the bullets. The final, approved version of the bill (H.R. 3132 passed in 1986) prohibited the sale of armor piercing ammunition [which may be used in a handgun] other than to law enforcement and the military. Representative Mario Biaggi (D-N.Y.) the original bill's sponsor, stated that the final legislation "... was not some watered down version of what we set out to do. In the end there was no compromise on the part of police safety..."
Gun control advocates and the news media jumped on the NRA's opposition to the original, vague and ineffective proposal. They ignored the NRA's contribution to the final legislation insisting to this day that the NRA wants "Cop Killer" bullets to be available to the public.
Here are the facts:
- "Armor piercing" ammunition is only legally available to law enforcement agencies and to the armed forces.
- Rather than opposing the ban on "armor piercing" ammunition, the NRA was in fact instrumental in crafting the law that Congress ultimately passed.
- When properly wearing the appropriate body armor, not one law enforcement officer has ever been killed by a handgun bullet penetrating their vest. The National Institute of Justice (NIJ) certifies three levels of body armor. The most commonly worn, Level IIA, offers realistic protection against all .22, .25, .32, .380, and .38, caliber handgun ammunition, against most 9mm, .357 Magnum, .40 S&W, .45 ACP and .44 Magnum handgun ammunition and against 000 buck shotgun pellets. Level II and Level IIIA armor protects from even greater threats including 12 gauge shotgun slugs and the "hottest" .44 Magnum rounds.
"Cop-killer" bullets are a myth born from media hype and nurtured by unrealistic Hollywood portrayals and the deliberately misleading claims of the anti-gun lobby. An objective, rational look at the facts quickly separates the myth from the reality. Knowledge is power.
- Mike Casey (a pseudonym) is currently a Patrol Officer, Firearms Instructor and Field Training Officer in a municipal police department in Maine. He previously served as a Deputy Sheriff in the Detroit area and as a U.S. Army Armored Cavalry officer. Mike has served in a variety of law enforcement positions including horse mounted patrol, bicycle patrol and as a Special Response Team member. He holds a BA in Criminology.
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Another myth the anti's refuse to acknowledge. Remember "Black-Talon's" that handgun ammo was lubalox coated to reduce muzzle wear and increase performance.
The stigma than increased with evil Black Talons causing medical examiners to perforate their surgical gloves during bullet recoveries from a body.
Now look at the new PX Winchester ammo.
It's the same thing....
and Black Talon boxes of ammo are now collectible.... ::)
It's a joke.
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The stigma than increased with evil Black Talons causing medical examiners to perforate their surgical gloves during bullet recoveries from a body.
It's a joke.
It is a joke....and a poor one at that.
After having seen dozens of autopsies, they don't exactly do anything blind.
Bodies are layed open more thoroughly than any deer or fish you've gutted and boned out.
Any Doc that doesn't know that bone fragments will cut the gloves as easy as a bullet jacket will has his/her head up their butt.
But reality never did have anything to do with it!
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um any "cutter" worth a damn is always going to be worried about bone fragments, jacket parts... etc etc while preforming surgury on a gun shot wound. ( my wife will back me up on this, as well as any other surgen that has every study/done that type of surgury)
if the medical examiner is too dumb to fallow thier leed, they get what they get.
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So, if the passes, does that mean we won't be allowed to kill cops with armor piercing bullets anymore, twice?
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The current law in CA only really covers miltary style steal cored rifle ammo.
who knows what this law is going to cover. Anyone with half a brain could figure out that if they really wanted to get some REAL AP ammo, any gun show in nevada will have it...
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"Cop Killer" ammo has to exist. I just watched Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon 3 shoot a pointy red 9mm bullet out of his Berreta and blow a half-inch hole through both sides of a kevlar vest and the ballistic plate in the middle. ;)
Politicians really need to stop getting their gun knowledge from movies.
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whats funny is the 17 hmr actually does a very good job of going thru the average vest.
so do arrows by the way.
We need to ban assult bows.
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Hornady has "red-tipped" ammo,.....no mention of them being banned.... :-\
It's a sham, to get the sheeple, birkenstock, bong smokin, tree huggin' grass eaters motivated......This time it won't work.
The Florida LEO shootings in St. Pete and Miami, that left 4 Officers dead, were all killed with standard ammo.
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If you shoot only "Cop Killer" bullets, are they worthless against civilians? I very much doubt a cop is going to be breaking into my home anytime soon. Bill T.
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If you shoot only "Cop Killer" bullets, are they worthless against civilians? I very much doubt a cop is going to be breaking into my home anytime soon. Bill T.
+1
What we need is "Thug-Killer" bullets.....(coming soon to a store near you)....oh, wait...... never mind.
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what was the name of the ammo that had pics of ninjas on the box? it was super mall ninja-ish.
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"Cop Killer" ammo has to exist. I just watched Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon 3 shoot a pointy red 9mm bullet out of his Berreta and blow a half-inch hole through both sides of a kevlar vest and the ballistic plate in the middle. ;)
Politicians really need to stop getting their gun knowledge from movies.
and used a mac 10 to shoot through a dozer blade!
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I know armor-piercing handgun ammo is already on the CA law books as a no-no so I'm not sure where he is going with this new bill.
Armor-Piercing Bullets
It is unlawful for any person to manufacture, sell, or knowingly possess or transport handgun
ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor. (Penal Code §§ 12320, 12321.)
Handgun ammunition means ammunition principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other
firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of section 12001,
notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles. (Penal Code § 12323(a).)
Handgun ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor means any ammunition,
except a shotgun shell or ammunition primarily designed for use in rifles, that is designed primarily
to penetrate a body vest or body shield. (Penal Code § 12323(b).)
Body vest or shield means any bullet-resistant material intended to provide ballistic and trauma
protection for the wearer or holder. (Penal Code § 12323(c).)
Can anyone tell me what is considered "cop killer" ammo?
All of it. (to the anties)
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I went to Cabela's today and the "Cop Killer" shelf was stocked full. As usual the "Bad Guy Killer" shelf was empty. I was so pissed I talked to the manager. He apologised and told me he had more on order. Bill T.
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First, what is the matter with you people? I saw it on TV AND the internet. It must be true!
Second, The BEST avatars of any forum out there!
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First, what is the matter with you people? I saw it on TV AND the internet. It must be true!
Second, The BEST avatars of any forum out there!
If you're refering to my post, it was a joke. I thought that was fairly obvious.
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I still have a few black talons left over from many years ago. Refuse to fire them. They were great rounds and fired near perfect out of my Smith and Wesson 6906.
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I still have a few black talons left over from many years ago. Refuse to fire them. They were great rounds and fired near perfect out of my Smith and Wesson 6906.
Its funny Ping, because apparently after Winchester stopped making them, the 'Black Talons' that is, the Winchester Ranger LE ammo appeared on the market. Do a side by side of the two and you'll find that they are the same ammo, the Rangers don't have nickel plated brass. Police are now shooting 'cop killer' ammo. Fast forward a few years and the Winchester PDX pistol ammo is on the shelves, do a side by side of these with the Black Talons, hard to pick out which is which. I use the PDX .45 ACP in my Sig P220.
EDIT
Read current status on the Wiki page. All kinds of ironic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon