The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: Hazcat on January 31, 2011, 09:17:42 AM
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Arizona gun dealers still selling semiautomatic weapons to buyers without background checks
BY Adam Lisberg
DAILY NEWS CITY HALL BUREAU CHIEF
The Tucson massacre that wounded Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and killed six others did not stop Arizona gun dealers from selling high-powered semiautomatics last week to buyers who said they couldn't pass background checks.
The sales were captured on undercover video by private detectives working for Mayor Bloomberg's crusade against illegal guns. The detectives went to the Crossroads of the West gun show in Phoenix on Jan.23 to expose the deadly loopholes in America's gun background check system.
The investigators bought Sig Sauer and Smith & Wesson 9-mm. semiautomatics with high-capacity magazines, even after telling the gun dealers they "probably couldn't pass" a background check. Gun shows are exempt from background checks, but vendors can't legally sell to anyone they think is prohibited from buying them.
SNIP
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2011/01/30/2011-01-30_arizona_gun_dealers_still_selling_semiautomatic_weapons_to_buyers_without_backgr.html
Comments at link
Another report
New York City Investigates Arizona Gun Show
By MARC LACEY
Published: January 30, 2011
PHOENIX — Weeks after a shooting left six dead and 13 injured in Tucson, New York City sent undercover investigators to an Arizona gun show and found instances in which private sellers sold semiautomatic pistols even after buyers said they probably could not pass background checks, city officials said.
The investigation, part of an effort by Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg’s administration to crack down on illegal gun sales nationwide, took place Jan. 23 at the Crossroads of the West Gun Show in Phoenix, officials said.
“The background check system failed in Arizona, it failed in Virginia and it fails in states around the country,” said John Feinblatt, an adviser to Mr. Bloomberg. “If we don’t fix it now, the question is not whether another massacre will occur, but when.”
Private, unlicensed sellers are not required to run federal background checks, but it is a violation of federal law to sell guns to people if sellers suspect they are felons or mentally ill or are otherwise prohibited from buying. In the case of Jared L. Loughner, who is accused of opening fire on the crowd in Tucson on Jan. 8, the gun used in the shootings was bought at a licensed gun dealer, and he passed a background check, the authorities said.
In two instances, the New York undercover officers specifically said before buying a gun, “I probably couldn’t pass a background check,” but were still sold guns, city officials said.
SNIP
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/31/us/31guns.html?_r=1&hp
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Just a thought, but perhaps this asshat Mayor should pay attention to solving the problems facing the 3rd world shithole of a city that he governs before sending "undercover agents" all over the country (presumably on NYC's nickel) to monitor gun shows in other states.
Just MHO, your mileage may vary.
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Arizona gun dealers still selling semiautomatic weapons to buyers without background checks
The Tucson massacre that wounded Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and killed six others did not stop Arizona gun dealers from selling high-powered semiautomatics last week to buyers who said they couldn't pass background checks.
The investigators bought Sig Sauer and Smith & Wesson 9-mm. semiautomatics with high-capacity magazines, even after telling the gun dealers they "probably couldn't pass" a background check. Gun shows are exempt from background checks, but vendors can't legally sell to anyone they think is prohibited from buying them.
Here's how I read that. They said they "probably" couldn't pass the check. Was it actually run? Just because they say they can't pass it, if the check is done and they do pass, they pass. Benefit of the doubt, but most dealers aren't stupid enough to not run the check. We all know that the "gunshow loophole" is a lie. The problem lies in the average American doesn't, they just take the "news" as the whole truth.
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Just a thought, but perhaps this asshat Mayor should pay attention to solving the problems facing the 3rd world shithole of a city that he governs before sending "undercover agents" all over the country (presumably on NYC's nickel) to monitor gun shows in other states.
Just MHO, your mileage may vary.
He needs a bigger spotlight.
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He needs a bigger spotlight.
The sun wouldn't be a big enough spotlight for this douchebag's ego.
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Just to echo the earlier sentiment - maybe he should be more focused on where you can illegally acquire firearms in NYC rather than spend taxpayer money to do it out of state. I suspect that it isn't that hard to get an illegal gun in his town.
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Has BATFE arrested his "investigators" for knowingly falsifying their information?
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Arizona gun dealers still selling semiautomatic weapons to buyers without background checks
In two instances, the New York undercover officers specifically said before buying a gun, I probably couldnt pass a background check, but were still sold guns, city officials said.
SNIP
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/31/us/31guns.html?_r=1&hp
I sell guns at a shop and if someone told me, I probably couldnt pass a background check, I would still run the NICS check and let the Feds make the determination.
However, if I were selling at a gun show and someone said, I probably couldnt pass a background check, then I wouldn't sell the gun to them. Anyone selling a gun at a gunshow to a person who said, I probably couldnt pass a background check, is asking for big trouble. The buyer made a disclosure and it can't be ignored by the seller. If it was an BATFE sting operation then an arrest would probably be made on the spot.
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Here's how I read that. They said they "probably" couldn't pass the check. Was it actually run? Just because they say they can't pass it, if the check is done and they do pass, they pass. Benefit of the doubt, but most dealers aren't stupid enough to not run the check. We all know that the "gunshow loophole" is a lie. The problem lies in the average American doesn't, they just take the "news" as the whole truth.
From the article it appears they made purchases from private individuals and stated they do not have to run the check, but cannot, by law, sell a firearm to someone they have reason to suspect would be prohibited from the purchase. They feel them telling the seller they "probably" could not pass the check was reason enough
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From the article it appears they made purchases from private individuals and stated they do not have to run the check, but cannot, by law, sell a firearm to someone they have reason to suspect would be prohibited from the purchase. They feel them telling the seller they "probably" could not pass the check was reason enough
Its enough for me.
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Its enough for me.
Agreed. I would pass on making that sale.
Actually the wise arse answer would be.... The gun is probably stolen anyway.
Bloomberg's report seems to make it sound like professional vendors don't do c hecks eitehr.
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There are a bunch of professional vendors out there that don't have ffls that should.
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Wow! An article about the event that actually presents some facts.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20110201/D9L3MSSO0.html (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20110201/D9L3MSSO0.html)
Some excerpts:
But in the sensitive aftermath of the shooting Jan. 8 that killed six people and critically wounded Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, the mayor was questioned about the time and place of his hidden-camera investigation, a $100,000 operation conducted almost clear across the country.
The mayor conceded that most illegal guns in New York City are coming from states along the East Coast, but said the rampage in Tucson would bring national attention to the investigation.
Jim Cavanaugh, a retired agent for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, where he was in charge of the Nashville division, said he didn't believe the sales described by the mayor were, in fact, illegal.
"It's not a prosecutable offense" because the purchasers were not truly felons, minors or drug abusers and because they didn't tell the sellers definitively that they were, Cavanaugh said. As for Bloomberg, he said, "ATF has asked him not to do it and to please coordinate with ATF if he thinks a violation is occurring."
In 2007, the U.S. Justice Department warned in a letter to City Hall that such civilian operations risk "legal liabilities" and can "unintentionally interrupt or jeopardize ongoing criminal investigations."
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and from the AP no less!
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There are a bunch of professional vendors out there that don't have ffls that should.
Let's not start down that slope. That is the slope bloombutt wants to run down. Don't start down the "You need a FFL to buy/sell more than X guns per year." That always ends with everyone needed a license to do anything. And then no one gets a license.
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Let's not start down that slope. That is the slope bloombutt wants to run down. Don't start down the "You need a FFL to buy/sell more than X guns per year." That always ends with everyone needed a license to do anything. And then no one gets a license.
I'm talking about the guys you see that are running "the loop". atleast we get alot of those out west. They travel every where west of the rockies, buying and selling guns. Now don't get me wrong there are several that are ffls and doing every thing by the book, but there are also those that are not. don't see them much in CA any more, but the surounding states you do alot.
I don't care if you buy and sell 1000 or even 10000 guns a year, the number of guns means nothing. when you are doing it as a biz, you need to be a ffl. Thats the law, good, bad or indiffrent, its still the law. The guys that do it as a hobby already have a easy out with ffl 03( C&R).
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I'm talking about the guys you see that are running "the loop". atleast we get alot of those out west. They travel every where west of the rockies, buying and selling guns. Now don't get me wrong there are several that are ffls and doing every thing by the book, but there are also those that are not. don't see them much in CA any more, but the surounding states you do alot.
I don't care if you buy and sell 1000 or even 10000 guns a year, the number of guns means nothing. when you are doing it as a biz, you need to be a ffl. Thats the law, good, bad or indiffrent, its still the law. The guys that do it as a hobby already have a easy out with ffl 03( C&R).
Then an FFL needs to be free to obtain. As does every other type of business license. From retail sales to contractors. This is simply the government charging a punitive tax on someone trying to operate their own business. I don't have a problem with firearms purchases requiring a background check, but if you are going to force everyone to get a license than you have to remove the punishment for doing it right.
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I'm talking about the guys you see that are running "the loop". atleast we get alot of those out west. They travel every where west of the rockies, buying and selling guns. Now don't get me wrong there are several that are ffls and doing every thing by the book, but there are also those that are not. don't see them much in CA any more, but the surounding states you do alot.
I don't care if you buy and sell 1000 or even 10000 guns a year, the number of guns means nothing. when you are doing it as a biz, you need to be a ffl. Thats the law, good, bad or indiffrent, its still the law. The guys that do it as a hobby already have a easy out with ffl 03( C&R).
Wrong! The guys that do it as a hobby need NO FFL!!!!! The C&R simply lets them get collectibles through the mail and discounts at Midway. If I want to buy 1000 guns - or sell that many - in a year, that is my damn hobby and I do not need .gov permission to exercise my hobby - or my rights.
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Then an FFL needs to be free to obtain. As does every other type of business license. From retail sales to contractors. This is simply the government charging a punitive tax on someone trying to operate their own business. I don't have a problem with firearms purchases requiring a background check, but if you are going to force everyone to get a license than you have to remove the punishment for doing it right.
charging what it cost to set up that lic is ok, making money is not.
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Did anybody notice that these "undercover officers" are committing a felony by making illegal gun purchases ?
Some pigs are more equal than others.
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Did anybody notice that these "undercover officers" are committing a felony by making illegal gun purchases ?
Some pigs are more equal than others.
I don't think they did. The 'agents' were from AZ.
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I don't think they did. The 'agents' were from AZ.
That is why telling them the gun is probably stolen puts them on the same illegal footing upon which they are putting the seller.
If they continue the purchase, they are purchasing a gun which they have reason to believe is stolen property.
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I'm talking about the guys you see that are running "the loop". atleast we get alot of those out west. They travel every where west of the rockies, buying and selling guns. Now don't get me wrong there are several that are ffls and doing every thing by the book, but there are also those that are not. don't see them much in CA any more, but the surounding states you do alot.
I don't care if you buy and sell 1000 or even 10000 guns a year, the number of guns means nothing. when you are doing it as a biz, you need to be a ffl. Thats the law, good, bad or indiffrent, its still the law. The guys that do it as a hobby already have a easy out with ffl 03( C&R).
So you AGREE with Bloombutt about the "gunshow loophole" ??
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So you AGREE with Bloombutt about the "gunshow loophole" ??
There is no gun show loop hole in AZ.
the gun show loop hole, there has not been one in AZ since before I can remember. you can legally sell a gun face to face and any time in AZ. The gun show loop hole was a law that made it so only at a gun show could you legally sell a gun face to face with out going thru a ffl/ back ground check. Its a bunch of BS that people still spout becuase they don't know any better, they want to grab a headline or both.
The only thing I can say about this entire deal is they must have some great legal egales or are paying some one off. If one of us tried this, we would have the ATF ( and I'm sure a few other 3 letter .gov agencys) so far up our buts they could see day light.
The sad reality is, bad people do bad things with guns. The so called good people( I say so called as all of us are felons, we just have not been cuaght yet, there are so many felonys out there its not even funny) don't stand out from the bad, so every one has to be checked. Does it suck? yes. Is there anything we can do about it? no. Does it actually work? kind of, but nothing will stop a bad person from doing bad things.