The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: twyacht on February 10, 2011, 07:00:08 PM
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So at Marquette Univ, WI, today BHO touted the "need" to listen to the PEOPLE of Egypt, and resolve to a transition of CHANGE.....
It is a "historical and pivotal point in history",.........
Gee,......I wonder what would happen if we the "PEOPLE",...just kinda showed up in DC and simply, peacefully stated:
TIME TO GO BHO!!!
and instead of a "one day rally" , "We The People",....just kinda stayed around demanding "CHANGE"......
Kinda makes you go Hmmmmmm,.....
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First would be the cops, then the military.
That is one ox that will never be gored.
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First would be the cops, then the military.
That is one ox that will never be gored.
Which way would the Military jump though ? Your making the same stupid assumption that the anti Gorby coup plotters made in '91.
Nearly all non military coups hinge on that question and the Govt always assumes the troops will fire on the population they were recruited from.
It's not a smart bet.
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Are you kidding me? He'd wait two weeks and bluster, threaten and then give a gracious speech saying "so long suckers"! Honestly, when the poo hit the fan in October of 2008 both he and McCain thought "Oh Crap!, now what"? I am reasonably certain that if he was "forced" to resign he would go willingly, thinking that his place in history as a leader who listened to the people was secured, and letting our current crisis be someone else's mess.
FQ13
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Did you spend your off time doing acid ? Or smoking crack ?
That egocentric azzhole would try to spin it as a show of why the people needed him to lead them until some one actually started hoisting on the rope and cut of his BS and air.
Welcome back ;D
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I think Tom mlssed ya
Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
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Which way would the Military jump though ? Your making the same stupid assumption that the anti Gorby coup plotters made in '91.
It's not a smart bet.
#1 WTF? Calling me stupid is uncalled for and callow....and it's "you're" not "your". ::)
#2 As much as it sickens me, BHusseinO is the Commader in Chief. Our soldiers follow orders.
Look at the stupid orders they have followed in Viet Nam, Panama, etc.
Nearly all non military coups hinge on that question and the Govt always assumes the troops will fire on the population they were recruited from.
The American military has killed Amercan citizens before. Remember Kent State? Didn't matter then, but it matters now?
From Wiki: The Kent State shootings—also known as the May 4 massacre or Kent State massacre—occurred at Kent State University in the city of Kent, Ohio, and involved the **shooting of unarmed college students by members of the Ohio National Guard on Monday, May 4, 1970. The guardsmen fired 67 rounds over a period of 13 seconds, killing four students and wounding nine others, one of whom suffered permanent paralysis.
Some of the students who were shot had been protesting against the American invasion of Cambodia, which President Richard Nixon announced in a television address on April 30. Other students who were shot had been walking nearby or observing the protest from a distance.
A claim of "national security" is made and orders are given - it isn't a far stretch.
Cops in gun hating states will arrest you for having a gun even though they know damn well what the Bill of Rights says.
**"unarmed college students" - some were allegedly throwing rocks.
That can be construed as deadly force, but they shot unarmed, non-rock throwing students as well.
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#1 WTF? Calling me stupid is uncalled for and callow....and it's "you're" not "your". ::)
#2 As much as it sickens me, BHusseinO is the Commader in Chief. Our soldiers follow LEGAL and MORALorders.
Look at the stupid orders they have followed in Viet Nam, Panama, etc.
The American military has killed Amercan citizens before. Remember Kent State? Didn't matter then, but it matters now?
A claim of "national security" is made and orders are given - it isn't a far stretch.
Cops in gun hating states will arrest you for having a gun even though they know damn well what the Bill of Rights says.
If an order is illegal or immoral the obligation of the military is to refuse. Shooting into a crowd, unprovoked, would fall under both.
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Bad example, shotting into the crowd wasn't ordered action by the leadership.
Kent State students were not only throwing rocks but returning the tear gas. Yes one trigger happy soldier popped a shot and the rest fired, since they didn't know where the shots were coming from. At the time the shots could have been coming from the crowd.
Vietnam and Panama are also horrible examples. The orders at the time made sense to those giiving them and carrying them out. You can armchair general all you want but unless you were there you can't say the orders were stupid. Mistakes may have been made.
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#1 WTF? Calling me stupid is uncalled for and callow....and it's "you're" not "your". ::)
Dude! Put down the caffeine and back away from the keyboard. Calm down a little.
He said that your assumption was stupid, not that you were stupid. Big difference.
P.S. If you want to spend your time nitpicking grammatical or spelling errors around here, you are going to have to quit your day job. ;D
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Bad example, shotting into the crowd wasn't ordered action by the leadership.
Kent State students were not only throwing rocks but returning the tear gas.
Vietnam and Panama are also horrible examples. The orders at the time made sense to those giiving them and carrying them out.
No I wasn't in Viet Nam. (I was 12 in 1969) Family members were.
They knew that the orders given them along the lines of: "You will NOT point your tank main gun to X side of this road while traveling" were stupid. They had been fired on before from that side.
I did not have family in the Air Force but have talked to enough USAF vets that knew flying into a target from the same direction, at the same altitude, time after time was stupid. Same with not bombing a sam site that they can see being built, but wasn't on the list.
I believe many Americans, and certainly our politicians, would consider a several hundred thousand strong crowd in DC, demanding the resignation of any politician (which is clearly outside the Constitution) a danger to the American way of life. Mob rule.
Disliking a congresscritter or prez is OK. Protesting against them is OK. We have clearly spelled out ways of dealing with them - votes or impeachment.
A mob in DC forcing them to step down is beyond the legal means at hand.
He said that your assumption was stupid, not that you were stupid. Big difference.
That is a very fine line - one I thought had been crossed.
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That is a very fine line - one I thought had been crossed.
Ichiban had it right, people a lot smarter, (in their opinion ) than us have made the assumption that the armed forces would "follow orders", and have died, or been imprisoned for their error.
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_of_Eight_%28Soviet_Union%29
The further fate of GKChP members
* Pugo, committed suicide together with his wife. However, some sources speculate that he may have been murdered.[3]
* Yazov, spent 18 months in Matrosskaya Tishina. According to the magazine "Vlast" No.41(85) of 14 October 1991 "...from the prison contacted the President with a recorded video message, where repented and called himself "an old fool". Yazov denies ever doing that. He accepted the amnesty stating that he was not guilty. He was dismissed from the military service by the Presidential Order and awarded a ceremonial weapon. He was awarded an order of Honor by the President of Russian Federation. Yazov works as a military adviser at the General Staff Academy.
* Varennikov, spent 18 months in Matrosskaya Tishina, refused to accept the offered amnesty, and was eventually recognized as not guilty. Prior to GKChP he participated in events to capture the TV-station in Vilnius and according to the assistant of Gorbachev, Andrei Chernyayev, the decision to use the force was taken him personally without discussion with the President.[4] Varennikov since 1995 was a people deputy and in 2008 publicly was stating that the military force used during the August putsch was intended for security purposes including the protection of Yeltsin. He died in 2009 and was buried in Moscow.
* Baklanov, spent 18 months in Matrosskaya Tishina, then accepted an amnesty in 1994 as not guilty. Later he worked as a director of Rosobshchemash.
* Yanayev, spent 18 months in Matrosskaya Tishina. Later he became a chairman of the department of national history at the Russian International Academy of Tourism.[5]
* Pavlov, during the putsch was taken to a hospital with a diagnosis of hypertension, but on 29 August was transferred to Matrosskaya Tishina. He accepted his amnesty as not guilty and became the head of the Chasprombank. Pavlov resigned from the bank on 31 August 1995 and six months later the bank was left without license.[6] Later he was an adviser at Promstroibank (today known as Bank VTB). Pavlov died in 2003 after a series of heart attacks and was buried in Moscow. )
As for your assertion that "Our soldiers follow orders. " You sound like one of Hitlers toadies, "Befeln ist befeln" (Orders are orders ) did not work as a defense at Nuremberg,
( http://www.nurembergfilm.org/trial_defendants_verdicts.shtml )
a variation on that did not save Lt. William Calley at My Lai, and it did not prevent the world from condemning Tienanmen Square. That is the assumption that lead to the failure of the anti Gorby coup in Moscow.
JNevis has it right on this, The UCMJ specifies LEGAL orders.
Another point you overlook is that the opinions of "soldiers" ie enlisted grades, are irrelevant until their Officers actually give them orders.
In a face off between "We the People" and "they", the administration, the orders passed on are going to be filtered through Officers who would not be there if they did not value the Constitution they are sworn to defend, and revere the Declaration of Independence.
What is far more likely is that they would put themselves between the 2 factions in an attempt to prevent violence, there would probably be efforts to organize services like "Porta potties" and such.
This is of course based on the premise of initially peaceful "TEA Party" type protest, in the face of rioting, and destruction I would of course applaud machine gunning the crowd.
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Oddly enough, I got more than a few lectures on this kind of crap during Army ROTC (including a slide show entitled "You might be a War Criminal" focusing on My Lai. It was up there with all the anti drunk driving videos you got in high school). ;D Anyway, at least in the late '80s, the aspiring officer corps were taught, very deliberately, to say "No sir, f..k you very much sir" when given an unlawful order. It wasn't just a film strip or rote lecture, it was drilled into our heads. That might be different now when the enemy isn't the USSR, but terrorists hidden among us. There is a lot more grey than black and white here. Still, I hope that my experience at Georgetown wasn't unique and that future officers are taught that there are some orders you just don't obey, regardless of the cost. The thing that they stressed, over and over again, was that you took the oath to defend the Constitution. Whether it was in PT ,in the classroom, on the range, or in ethical "what if" scenarios, that point was hammered home. It was designed to motivate us and drive home the point that as officers, we shouldn't need motivating. It was our job to motivate others and we shouldn't need a cheer leader to get our act toghther, we should just remember our oath, It was brain washing, and a very effective form of it. But it worked because it served to remind us of why we signed on the dotted line to begin with. I have no doubt that a lot of officers will just follow orders. I do hope though, that a fair number will remember the lessons they were taught about My Lai and Kent State and just refuse.
FQ13
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Considering the way the Dem party favors our enemies and tries to hamstring our troops, I would bet that thre is even more emphasis on that now.
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Without getting into the politics of who is good and who is bad, what would Pres. BHO say if Chinese leadership spoke publicly that the people of the United States of America need to stand up in revolt and force change in the manor envisioned and prepared for by the founding fathers in the United States Constitution?
I have no problem with world leaders talking to each other, giving each other advice, and expressing their view of what they should do (what we expect from them). But if you are going to rile the citizenry to revolt and overthrow you had better be ready for others to do the same on our side of the world!
Main stream media is touting this as a "victory for the people," and the self worshiping Pres. BHO is notching his belt with another victory that he brought about, but what will everyone be saying after the Muslim Brotherhood is in control and they are stoning people, using swords on necks and wrists, and forcing Islamic worship (had to strike that because as long as it isn't Jewish or Christian it is ok and proper)?
I predict that within the next year world leaders will be wringing their hands asking what we can do about the new regime in Egypt.
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I had the same thought.
Last night I watched some reporter interviewing the crowd. The general comment was "We are weeping with joy".
I wondered what they would be saying this time next year ?
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I had the same thought.
Last night I watched some reporter interviewing the crowd. The general comment was "We are weeping with joy".
I wondered what they would be saying this time next year ?
They call economics "the dismal science", but in reality, that title belongs to political science. :-\ Its all about choosing the least bad option. Its said that the perfect is the enemy of the good. In international relations that tranlates into "The totally screwed up is better than rhan the completely FUBARED". We LIKE the corrupt authoritarian Middle Eastern despots as we have made a Faustian bargain with them. They get our money, and in return don't make touble in our oil fields or blow up the damn world by attacking Israel. Trouble is, their populations tend to take our ideals abourt democracy seriously. They don't understand that we'd rather have a bought and paid for thug than a democratically elected leader that doesn't like us (cf Salvador Allende in Chile for those that might take offense). Sad thing is that that Islamacists are waiting in the wings. They will leap on this opportunity and we might very well just replace a freindly dictator with a hostile one, just like we did in Nicaragua in the '80s. Either way it sucks al around. The only lesson to be learned is this. Our interests often conflict with our ideology and our President beter damn well understand that, otherwise we will see endles repitions of Carter.
FQ13
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I had the same thought.
Last night I watched some reporter interviewing the crowd. The general comment was "We are weeping with joy".
I wondered what they would be saying this time next year ?
Sometimes the best answer is just "Better the devil you know." I'm afraid they are trading one evil for another ... and it could be far worse than who they just threw out!
Also, how comfortable is everyone with the military being in charge ??? I have heard and seen several reports that this is a good thing, because the United States gives the Egyptian military $1 billion per year ???
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FQ, the extremely unPC truth is that those people , Africans, South Americans, and large portions of Europe and Asia could not handle US style freedom. In fact, History has shown that the only time they are stable is under Dictatorships or monarchy of some sort, and even then most will never prosper.
Egypt has been verging on the status of "Failed state" since the time of Julius Caesar. The Saddat/ Mubarak era has been a high water mark for Egypt that they have not equaled since the days of Pharaoh.
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Sometimes the best answer is just "Better the devil you know." I'm afraid they are trading one evil for another ... and it could be far worse than who they just threw out!
Also, how comfortable is everyone with the military being in charge ??? I have heard and seen several reports that this is a good thing, because the United States gives the Egyptian military $1 billion per year ???
Getting comfortable with the military in charge?
I hate to sound like a bastard, but as a political scientist its kind of my job. :P
Honest question. Do you really give a damn who rules Egypt so long as they serve our interests? I thought not. Let whoever emerges from this mess as president win, just so long as they understand they need to honor the peace treaty with Israel and contain the Jihadis. Beyond that, I don't give a rat's rear end about the rest of it. I don't live there and I'm not planning on retiring in Cairo. To quote that consumate bastard Kissenger, "Foriegn policy should be concerned with the external behavior of nations, not their internal policies". Wise words and ones we would do well to heed. Let muslim fanatics take power. As long as they content themselves with oppressing their own people and don't export Jihad to our shores I have zero grounds for complaint. The Egyptians can decide what form of government they have for themselves. As long as tey don't threaten us its not our problem. Again, I sound like an SOB here, but the fact is that a whole lot more blood has been spilled by idealists than has been spilled by realists. And that is where I rest my case.
FQ13
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Getting comfortable with the military in charge?
I hate to sound like a bastard, but as a political scientist its kind of my job. :P
Honest question. Do you really give a damn who rules Egypt so long as they serve our interests? I thought not. Let whoever emerges from this mess as president win, just so long as they understand they need to honor the peace treaty with Israel and contain the Jihadis. Beyond that, I don't give a rat's rear end about the rest of it. I don't live there and I'm not planning on retiring in Cairo. To quote that consumate bastard Kissenger, "Foriegn policy should be concerned with the external behavior of nations, not their internal policies". Wise words and ones we would do well to heed. Let muslim fanatics take power. As long as they content themselves with oppressing their own people and don't export Jihad to our shores I have zero grounds for complaint. The Egyptians can decide what form of government they have for themselves. As long as tey don't threaten us its not our problem. Again, I sound like an SOB here, but the fact is that a whole lot more blood has been spilled by idealists than has been spilled by realists. And that is where I rest my case.
FQ13
As far as I'm concerned we can tell them to do whatever they want, but if the F with us, our friends or the shipping lanes through the Canal we will turn them to glass!
The last thing Pres. BHO should have done is encourage the protesters to continue unless he is prepared for others to do the same for us. Maybe the French will purchase air time and ink to influence our 2012 elections.
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It's not just Egypt, look at a map of the region. There is "something afoot" in a whole bunch of Muslim countries. Seems the folks are getting frustrated with long standing "moderate" dictators.
I guess the current supply of goats is getting rather boring ::). The majority of these populations are 35 or younger. Algeria, Tunisia, Jordan, Somalia, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Turkey, a few "stan countries" all having large Muslim influence and unrest at different levels.
Who's biding their time and waiting patiently? Oh,...just folks like the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, Hezbollah, factions of Al-Quaeda, different levels of different groups that have three things in common, regardless:
"Death To America"
"Death To Israel"
"Sharia Law through an Islamic Caliphate"
They don't need to get to the top,...ONLY get in the door. Hamas was never supposed to win elections either.
84% of Egyptian "inspiring young revolutionaries" APPROVE OF STONING YOUR WIFE AND HONOR KILLING.
One country, with a nuclear Iran, enabling and starting s**t, is all it takes. Israel, will turn the region to glass, long before we launch a damn thing.
The 12th Imam will be back, aka Armageddon, aka WWIII. How's that hopey / changey stuff workin?
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I had the same thought.
Last night I watched some reporter interviewing the crowd. The general comment was "We are weeping with joy".
I wondered what they would be saying this time next year ?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110213/wl_nm/us_egypt
CAIRO (Reuters) – Egypt's new military rulers said on Sunday they had dissolved parliament, suspended the constitution and would govern only for six months or until elections took place, following the overthrow of Hosni Mubarak.
In a statement, the Higher Military Council which took over after 18 days of protest ended Mubarak's 30-year rule, promised a referendum on constitutional amendments.
The initial response from opposition figures and protest leaders was overwhelmingly positive. "Victory, victory," chanted pro-democracy activists in Cairo's Tahrir Square. "More is needed, more is needed," others yelled.
"It is a victory for the revolution," said opposition politician Ayman Nour, who challenged Mubarak for the presidency in 2005 and was later jailed on forgery charges which he said were rigged. "I think this will satisfy the protesters."
Mahmoud Nassar, a youth movement leader, said: "The army has moved far along to meet the people's demands and we urge it to release all political prisoners who were taken before and after January 25 revolution. Only then will we call off the protests."
Do these fools realize that whatever protections they had are now gone ?
They are dumb enough to be Democrats.
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The big picture we need to remember is that the goal of the Muslim Brotherhood is to create an Islamic world. If we do not focus on what that issue above all else we will miss the simple fact that we are on the "overthrow" list.
We need to get the Whitehouse and its minions to quit rejoicing in all this upheaval in that region and pray that they start focusing on what this snowball that has been pushed over the crest of the hill is growing into. Sadly I do not read enough history to keep all the events in the right order, and sometimes I miss name things, but here I go: Think of this as the beginning of the Romans spreading through Europe and the middle east; the Christian forces during the Crusades; and Americans as they conquered our portion of North America in such a small span of time. If we don't remember these times we will not recognize how simply this force gaining momentum in our world can overrun us all!
I won't get into the whole political issue of what a "Christian Nation" is and whether we are, were or will be, but the United States of America was built on Judeo Christian values and it is those values and beliefs that crafted our founding documents and most of our first two centuries of moral expectations as a society. Do we want this nation to return to being a melting port where newcomers blend into our existing stew while adding a little flavor, or do we become a multi-item plate of individual separate that never blends but fights to be number one?
Their forces are organized, distributed and active. We need to decide if we will just roll over and let it happen to us on our soil, or if we are willing to fight them on all levels with all means necessary.