The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: Ichiban on February 12, 2011, 07:27:44 AM
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(This is a repost - the original post seems to have gotten eaten by the server upgrade)
Especially if you live in an apartment. DOH!
Colorado Springs police arrested a man Wednesday night after a shot from an AK-47 traveled through several walls at the Foothills Apartments and came to rest in a bathroom two apartments away.
According to a police report, Jason R. Moore allegedly fired off one shot accidentally while in apartment No. 15 of the western Colorado Springs complex. The bullet went through multiple walls in apartment No. 16 and into an occupied bathroom in No. 17.
http://www.gazette.com/articles/apartments-112642-police-through.html (http://www.gazette.com/articles/apartments-112642-police-through.html)
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I don't have a real problem with this. If you fire a bullet, you own it. Saying "oops" doesn't make a bystander any less dead from an ND (as seems the case here) or from a missed shot in an SD situation. I would think that in the latter case that lenciency should be shown if the first shot was justified, the same same way cops get off the hook. Stiill, the post brings up a very good point. Does using an AK, the very eviliest and nastiest of all the EBRs cause a problem? Are you more likely to be looking at jail if yuu use an AK rather than a .270?
FQ13
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Are you more likely to be looking at jail if yuu use an AK rather than a .270?
FQ13
Yes. Right or wrong, perception matters.
In this case, I am willing to bet it was the ammo more than the gun that caused it to go entirely through an apartment. That or the crackerbox building. Either one is a lesson.
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Yes. Right or wrong, perception matters.
In this case, I am willing to bet it was the ammo more than the gun that caused it to go entirely through an apartment. That or the crackerbox building. Either one is a lesson.
Agreed entirely.
That's why my "House gun" is a 12 Ga loaded with #6 shot. (first )
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While I do not live in an apartment or even in town, the house gun is loaded with nine rounds of trap loads. Carry gun is still handy, but the shotgun is primary. Don't need to worry about family in the next room or any other surprises.
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I'm going to side with the Kalashnikov, provided you live in the right circumstances. I keep mine loaded as my primary HD long gun, and it travels with me often in the trunk of the car. I like the simple manual of arms, and trust it to work when it's hot, frozen cold, filthy or mistreated.
I have no neighbors and consider the extra punch a good thing. I would not want to use it against a black bear, but it would do alot better than .223.
I think for me it is a great Civilian Defence Rifle. Good balance of reliability, ease of use, power and shootability.
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This video used to be located on this site but it has been moved to Outdoor Channel.
http://www.outdoorchannel.com/Shows/BestDefense/Videos.aspx?pid=ur_tGfbC0T9rNqX7BGsFSRbAcZjIb5Sx&tpid=1507124132
Your answer might be found in the video.
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Frangible ball ammo, like DRT ammo, is also a good bet.
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I have no neighbors and consider the extra punch a good thing. I would not want to use it against a black bear, but it would do alot better than .223.
You must live on the west side of town. ;D
A person returned home about 10:30 p.m. to find the bear in the kitchen of the house, which sits on the 40 block of Upland Road, according to Michael Seraphin, spokesman for the Colorado Division of Wildlife.
http://www.gazette.com/articles/colorado-100340-house-bear.html (http://www.gazette.com/articles/colorado-100340-house-bear.html)
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This is a multi-faceted issue and one where there may be many correct answers.
Drywall is not a human torso, so how far would the bullet travel if it has already gone through the body of an attacker? For me that is question number one. Question number two, and the more important question in my mind is, what is the local mood of the court related to personal firearms and "evil assault weapons"? We all know it's not an "assault weapon" but the 59 year old lady in the jury box doesn't.
This brings up another issue, for me at least. What is your backstop? While I admit to having a rifle as part of my home defense selection of tools, I also have dedicated firing lanes in my home that I have mapped out. I have locations in my home where I cannot fire, and I am aware of that beforehand.
As for the AK being a good idea for home defense, it depends.
Biker
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Certainly an ND with a loaded AK, in an apt. is STUPID. However, I think an AK for HD, in the right home environment, is more than adequate.
Not white picket fence, cookie cutter neighborhoods, but rural settings for sure.
Than there's this.
Loaded with trap, #6-7 shot,.....well...
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Living in a trailer-park I am very conscious of the fact my rounds will go through the walls, down the road and through the next guys home, which is why I keep my AK loaded with frangible's. I keep one mag of these puppies as my ready mag and keep hollow-points in the other 8 (not as good at that but if I don't stop things with 30 the neighbors had better have figured it out and unassed this AO).
I stopped using the light weight shot in my HD shotguns after I found a number of cases where the pellets didn't incapacitate the offender quickly enough to stop the fight. The Detroit PD shooting has reinforced this as the perp was using #7 on the cops and failed to make a single kill, even when he hit unarmored targets.
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Certainly an ND with a loaded AK, in an apt. is STUPID. However, I think an AK for HD, in the right home environment, is more than adequate.
Not white picket fence, cookie cutter neighborhoods, but rural settings for sure.
Than there's this.
Loaded with trap, #6-7 shot,.....well...
I wouldn't want to explain it a South Florida jury, but damned if it doesn't look like it would get your point across. "Are you A-holes still here? Because I've got another 40 rounds or so". ;D I'd load with number 2s or BB, not number 6s though if you want to use bird shot. You've got fewer pellets for less spread and more chance of doing fight stopping damage. More penetration, but I think the trade off in the sheer amount of projectiles you are throwing downrange would balance out. But then, that's just me, I could be wrong. :-\
FQ13 who will resist temptation, but damn, the isea of a Saiga with a drum does have a certain appeal doesn't it? ;D
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FQ, Generally the Saiga drums cost more than the gun.
And on the #6 shot,3 things. It was on sale, With a max range in the Apt of 10 yards spread is not an issue, The Lathe, and horse hair plaster means it is still light enough not to kill my neighbors by accident.
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Tom;
Even though the mass x velocity squared is the same at the muzzle as say 00 buck, you would be surprised just how fast small shot bleeds energy, the small mass of each pellet reduces energy retention drastically. I myself used to think that the 30 feet which was the maximum distance in my house was not a huge difference, I was wrong. What we really need is a good frangible shotgun round (which I am working on right now, since this got me started) with multiple projectiles that would retain energy while moving through the air but fragment and lose energy rapidly upon impact with light cover like a sheet of drywall.
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Tom;
Even though the mass x velocity squared is the same at the muzzle as say 00 buck, you would be surprised just how fast small shot bleeds energy, the small mass of each pellet reduces energy retention drastically. I myself used to think that the 30 feet which was the maximum distance in my house was not a huge difference, I was wrong. What we really need is a good frangible shotgun round (which I am working on right now, since this got me started) with multiple projectiles that would retain energy while moving through the air but fragment and lose energy rapidly upon impact with light cover like a sheet of drywall.
Indeed! At the distance in the video, it hit "pretty much" like a frangible projectile. At six to sixteen feet. it would be like getting hit with a (lethal) truck, two baseball bats, and a sledgehammer. Center-of-mass hit on target at that range would be almost IMMEDIATELY fatal, and carry little-to-none in the collateral department.
I don't live in the "picket-fence" zone, I am "out there", and the #6 is my preference.
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Rob Pincus, back in Valhalla days had a great DVD segment on this, complete with sheetrock walls, hallways, adjoining rooms etc,...
One would be surprised even how much penetration occurs, even with a .38.
I wonder if it's here at the DRTV archives, or if Rob can post a link. It was very informative, from 38 to 45, to 12g...
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Are you talking about the one Watchman posted on the first page of this thread? Looks like bird shot is the way to go if you want to keep it contained to just a couple of rooms.
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Are you talking about the one Watchman posted on the first page of this thread? Looks like bird shot is the way to go if you want to keep it contained to just a couple of rooms.
Very similar, with identical results, Rob, was at an indoor range, and used a couple more rounds including a 38 and a 357.
The result is a 12g with some form of shot, will be quite effective at an SD range.
I would have liked to see an AK round used in the demo,....larger, heavier, not as fast as a .223, but to the OP, it covered two apt. units and lodged in the bathroom...
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Than there's this.
(snip)
Loaded with trap, #6-7 shot,.....well...
In the shotgun, even with only 8 rds, I use a mix. I actually keep an L-T-L rubber ball, (from ALS), in the pipe as a "persuader" for larger animals that come into the yard. After that 3 rds of #6. After THAT, it's Centurion buck-&-ball. If necessary, I can de-load the three bird-shot in a bit of a hurry to get to the B-&-B for anything in the yard. Mind you, that's after MANY HOURS of "train, train, and when you think you've GOT IT, train some more".
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In the shotgun, even with only 8 rds, I use a mix. I actually keep an L-T-L rubber ball, (from ALS), in the pipe as a "persuader" for larger animals that come into the yard. After that 3 rds of #6. After THAT, it's Centurion buck-&-ball. If necessary, I can de-load the three bird-shot in a bit of a hurry to get to the B-&-B for anything in the yard. Mind you, that's after MANY HOURS of "train, train, and when you think you've GOT IT, train some more".
Good for the A-hole that says "You ain't gonna shoot AAARGH, That f*^king hurt " ;D